Jax Digital Pho wrote:
Models ... if you want a professional portfolio try HIRING a professional.

Jax Digital Pho wrote:
if a Photographer is shooting with a model for the purpose of his/her portfolio than he/she SHOULD pay the model! Absolutely correct!

Hence the TFP or "unpaid test" concept.

The issue is not money but quality and doing what it takes to achieve it.

Curt Burgess wrote:

Let's see .... not all that hard to figure out who you did TFP with ... now is it?

Pretty simple deductive inference will get that for the reader.

You can't get the whole list from MM and OMP alone ;-)

-D

Daniela V wrote:
spending money on prints for my book
-D

I think you just put your foot in your mouth on that line.

Thats what im talking about! You're gonna spend money on getting prints for your book, that is our job, you spend the money for your prints, we will deliver the product.
I'll take a free pack of cigarettes from the guy in the flea market, but I'll pay for a pack at the supermarket.

FosbreStudios wrote:

I think you just put your foot in your mouth on that line.

Thats what im talking about! You're gonna spend money on getting prints for your book, that is our job, you spend the money for your prints, we will deliver the product.
\

Thanks, but I didn't.

I don't ever expect photographers to deliver prints for me. I expect 2-4 retouched, and I'll print what I need.  :-)

No one seems to get how expensive this job/hobby is.  We buy the equipment, the compact cards, the computers, the programs, the photoshop classes, the printers, the ink, the paper, the CD's, spend the time retouching your images but professional or not most models don't put much value on what we do.  Unless I am doing a test for myself, I will never give away my time and talent again.  Those of you doing TFCD should still be charging for your materials or you will go broke so quickly.

FULLY AGREE.  Many models just do not understand, appreciate the effort, time invested, and cost of equipment/material a photographer uses in a photo session to make her look good and in the final product.  This is evident by the number of no shows.

Daniela V wrote:
I just think this keeps going round and round in circles...but I wanted to state this again:

-D

darling, this debate really doesnt even apply to you, coz u have the added weapons of a pair of fantasticly beautiful breasts (that will make even the most tfp-shy photoghrapher say things like 'sure ok'), and a completely different creative mentality. while u are obviously quite beautiful also, the fact that you are prepared to be naked in a creative situation suggest to any photographer than there is probably something worth tfp-ing for with you, as your mindset is clearly quite different to most other models from that point alone, and often just shooting someone with a different attitude to their average model will inspire any photographer to try a model out.  if all your pictures were clothed, i dont imagine you would be in the situation to be making the points you are trying (twice) to make.

Daniela V wrote:

Thanks, but I didn't.

I don't ever expect photographers to deliver prints for me. I expect 2-4 retouched, and I'll print what I need.  :-)

I didn't mean physically deliver. I ment, if you are going to pay for prints. Go through the photographer, pay them for the prints you want/need, let us do "the job" of selecting a lab that is better than you taking to a department store for cheap prints, and we will have the prints mailed to you for our services.

I way of looking at it. If the model pays the photographer, it is also part of our job, to get the prints they paid for to the model. The model then will eliminate the 2nd party. First the photographer, then the one hour moto photo. We the photographer will do all that. We still have to pay to get it done anyway.
And most of the time, photographers have better labs than what the model knows of.

For example.
My sister is down the shore right now. Walked on the boardwalk, wanted family photos done. The photographer first charges $299 just for a Sitting Fee. Then It's another $200 for ONE PRINT, yes ONE PRINT, size 11x16. And for $500 later, You go home with one enlargement!
Well, she's not doing it, I am taking a drive down TODAY, and I am doing the session for her.
WoW! I should start charging sitting fees!!!

FosbreStudios wrote:
I didn't mean physically deliver. I ment, if you are going to pay for prints. Go through the photographer, pay them for the prints you want/need, let us do "the job" of selecting a lab that is better than you taking to a department store for cheap prints, and we will have the prints mailed to you for our services.

Who said I go to a department store? Bad assumption. I go through a lab in NYC that was selected for me by one of the photographers I work with.

And again, I don't expect photographers to be involved in the print process- they do enough work.

-D

Daniela V wrote:

Who said I go to a department store? Bad assumption. I go through a lab in NYC that was selected for me by one of the photographers I work with.

And again, I don't expect photographers to be involved in the print process- they do enough work.

-D

Well, just assuming most models either just use their Hewlett Packerd Printer to print them all off, then the prints stick to the pages of the book because the ink was still wet....but anyway.....I take pride in my stuff, and I feel honored to see my work in a frame or a book, rather than just on a computer. If the model took care of the printing process, I'll never know what it looked like on paper. SO I feel, let us take care of the printing process, and save your money from your NY lab, and we will do the lab work for you, as part of the price you paid to the photographer

*waives the sitting fee 

inese wrote:
Hi guys interesting discussion I work with the photographer who hires pretty much people we worked with before, because when they come to him and pay him for work (yes photographer,MUA,Hair, Stylist etc.deserve to get paid, beleive it or not they need to eat too what a surprise and they are good model he promises them as soon as he has a job he will let them know. Unless an agent recommends someone very professional he will work with them too( when I say professional I mean someone with a couple of jobs,tears etc.) But otherwise there is a song right (nothing for nothing means nothing you got to have something if you want be with me) In the end the model has potential making way more money than the photographer so it's wise to invest in the good photographer first, have great portfolio and comp get to working and stop beeing cheap. Good Morning Everybody!

Thank YOu INESE!

FosbreStudios wrote:
Well, just assuming most models either just use their Hewlett Packerd Printer to print them all off, then the prints stick to the pages of the book because the ink was still wet....but anyway.....I take pride in my stuff, and I feel honored to see my work in a frame or a book, rather than just on a computer. If the model took care of the printing process, I'll never know what it looked like on paper. SO I feel, let us take care of the printing process, and save your money from your NY lab, and we will do the lab work for you, as part of the price you paid to the photographer

*waives the sitting fee 

Try not to assume. There's a catchy aphorism about that.

Personally, I don't care who I pay for the print, but very few photographers I know really want to sit around printing their work for the models' books.

theda wrote:

Try not to assume. There's a catchy aphorism about that.

Personally, I don't care who I pay for the print, but very few photographers I know really want to sit around printing their work for the models' books.

We dont just sit around printing photos, because in my thinking, a picture from a home printer is not a photo. I gather the files, put on cd, send to lab, get it DEVELOPED, not PRINTED.

And yes, maybe i should've "not assumed", but I think it's part of OUR JOB to get the DEVELOPING part of the shoot done as well. Thats our Service

Bottom line: Pay the photographer, and we'll take care of you
You'll get the prints you want, and a book, a cd, blah , blah, blah, and saves you from doing ANYTHING Else but prancing around in your underwear for an hour.

FosbreStudios wrote:
Our job is :
1.Setting up the shoot
2.Helping with posing
3Taking the photo correctly with our knowledge of the camera settings and creativity.
4. Post-Editing
5. Getting the Product to the model.


#5 eliminates the model from any further work they have to do. Saves you "the gas" and "time" to get your prints. (We) did it for you.
We will "spend the gas" to the lab, use hours of a day Post Editing, and Getting "orders" ready, such as Prints that the model selected, frames, if they wanted framed work. Goes on and on..there's so much we can do rather than pushing the shutter button and getting prints made...there's so much stuff we can get done on a photo, than you can.

So again, instead of trying to avoid giving a photographer a dime, say "hey, here's $50 bucks, get me this print, that print and this print for my book, and I'll have my prints, and you can feed your 6 month old tonight". 

I think some photographers feel #5 is their responsibility. None of the ones I worked with think that way though...and frankly, I don't think it's their responsibility either. Don't they have other models to shoot? It's my book, why should they be bothered with the prints, even if I were to pay them? That's admirable that you would do that, but I would never expect it, and thus, I further invest in my modeling career by making prints for my book. :-)

And PLEASE......with the "avoid giving a photographer a dime"....sometimes when a model says she can't afford it,  it's just that.

Without hijacking this thread, I think what it boils down to is, if you portfolio sucks (no matter what you are, photog, model, stylist) you could pay to get instant results and choose to invest in THAT way to make your book more presentable...and then maybe you'll be on your way to more paying jobs...if you have a look worth paying for (sounds rude, but isn't). Yes, some models should pay, and some don't respect what a photographer invests...it's the same as yes, some photographers should pay, and don't realize what a model invests.

-D

Daniela V wrote:

I think some photographers feel #5 is their responsibility. None of the ones I worked with think that way though...and frankly, I don't think it's their responsibility either. Don't they have other models to shoot? It's my book, why should they be bothered with the prints, even if I were to pay them? That's admirable that you would do that, but I would never expect it, and thus, I further invest in my modeling career by making prints for my book. :-)

And PLEASE......with the "avoid giving a photographer a dime"....sometimes when a model says she can't afford it,  it's just that.

Without hijacking this thread, I think what it boils down to is, if you portfolio sucks (no matter what you are, photog, model, stylist) you could pay to get instant results and choose to invest in THAT way to make your book more presentable...and then maybe you'll be on your way to more paying jobs...if you have a look worth paying for (sounds rude, but isn't). Yes, some models should pay, and some don't respect what a photographer invests...it's the same as yes, some photographers should pay, and don't realize what a model invests.

-D

Well i'm sure there's alot of photographers that enjoy putting together packages as well as just doing the shoot itself. I'm one of those that likes to get real nice books with their photos in them...its self rewarding to me to see their looks on their faces when they see it....saying "wow, this is really nice". Thats my reward....to know that it was very appreciated I extended my service from doing the shoot and being the "lab" for them as well.

FosbreStudios wrote:
Well i'm sure there's alot of photographers that enjoy putting together packages as well as just doing the shoot itself. I'm one of those that likes to get real nice books with their photos in them...its self rewarding to me to see their looks on their faces when they see it....saying "wow, this is really nice". Thats my reward....to know that it was very appreciated I extended my service from doing the shoot and being the "lab" for them as well.

But you do this for paying models only, or those that you shoot TFP with as well? Because if it's for models that pay you, I'm sure that the money is a nice reward too- right?

Daniela V wrote:

But you do this for paying models only, or those that you shoot TFP with as well? Because if it's for models that pay you, I'm sure that the money is a nice reward too- right?

Yes I do it for the paying models. BUt also, for tfp shoots, but not as much product gets to the tfp models. I will select one or maybe two shots I think were outstanding, and surprise them with a call or email saying.. "Hey I really liked a couple of the shots we did, and I got some 8x10s done for my book, and got the same ones i did for my book, to give to you as well.....plus they get the cd of the whole shoot, all edited, and bad shots discarded....when i do that...they are soooooooooooo appreciative, and most of the time, have repeat shoots with them, or they refer other models to me....
The paying models, they get more than just a couple 8x10s, They get a whole package deal. Depending on what they pay for.

Edwardv wrote:
No one seems to get how expensive this job/hobby is.  We buy the equipment, the compact cards, the computers, the programs, the photoshop classes, the printers, the ink, the paper, the CD's, spend the time retouching your images but professional or not most models don't put much value on what we do.  Unless I am doing a test for myself, I will never give away my time and talent again.  Those of you doing TFCD should still be charging for your materials or you will go broke so quickly.

FULLY AGREE.  Many models just do not understand, appreciate the effort, time invested, and cost of equipment/material a photographer uses in a photo session to make her look good and in the final product.  This is evident by the number of no shows.

(because I'm lame and don't know how to do separate quotes like all you people)

"No one seems to get how expensive this job/hobby is."
Not true....some people get it. Do you understand how expensive it is to stay in shape and be worth taking photos of? There's plenty of competition out there.

"Unless I am doing a test for myself, I will never give away my time and talent again."

It sounds like you got burned my one too many flakes. If you open yourself up to internet modeling, you're going to get a few of those...learn to roll.

"Those of you doing TFCD should still be charging for your materials or you will go broke so quickly."
I'm very curious about your opinion of paying models. Just curious.

-D

Bullhead Photography wrote:
Someday I'll shoot with DaneilaV      ; )

I'll let you know when I'm out that way ;-)

Melissa Lynnette wrote:
I might one day decide that I'm just that desperate enough to work with a certain no TFP photographer that I would pay for it.

its strange how we all (specially beginners) have different perceptions of things, like what the OP said for starters........and what is a good photographer? what a great picture is? what is a terrible pose? oh, and what is hideous make-up? etc etc.......and i wonder how much altering ones perception of all those things changes their luck/opportunites/fortunes within their career??

even within someones attitude towards their situation or their career......for example, try changing the word "desparate" in your sentence, to "ambitious" that someone else might use in the same sentence......and then think about which one of you might be taking advantage of better opportunites?

once u start paying for things, its amazing how your perception changes, and how much more u are prepared to sacrifice things, and how much more seriously you look for answers and opportunities around u. and even if u dont have money, the right attitude can go along way towards accumulating it, or simply attracting people that will help you for free, even if they normally would not. Anything can compell a photographer to take out his camera and shoot pictures of you......usually it just takes some sort of inspiration.......and money is only one of them.

all the best 

Daniela V wrote:

It's one of my wish list artists on this site...anyway, I digress.

My whole thing is, there are photographers, that I would never dream of asking me to do TFP (and these are names that I won't give up) and they didn't....until my portfolio got to where it is now. Granted, it could always be better- everyone's portfolio could always be better, but I find that those photographers that charge ooodles of money, and are worth every cent, also shoot models TFP to keep their book updated (not all, some), and as long as that happens, I just can't see paying a photographer.

-D

SO, just can't see paying a photographer? You think you're gonna "ride" through a modeling career without paying a photographer as you grow more and more upscale, reaching to the top famous photographers?  Come on!
Yes, I can see photographers doing TFP and all that...but saying to them you will NEVER PAY ONE! COme on! I can see not paying this photographer or that photographer, but when you hit that ONE photographer, that will get you  your "stardom" that you models want, and he charges....what are u going to do?
Not saying he charges, but maybe there's some kind of fee somewhere along the line to get you to the "top".

Ok fine. You will never pay a photographer, but photographers seems to MUST pay the model because they are models for "paid assignments only". So give some photographers that are "broke" a chance to do some tfp, drop your rates for a day, and take advantage of some new prints for your book, and then maybe your next job can be a "paying" job. Then maybe you come to one where You must do the paying to get you here, and get you there, and get you on tv and so on, then maybe you should shell out the green.   

FosbreStudios wrote:
SO, just can't see paying a photographer? You think you're gonna "ride" through a modeling career without paying a photographer as you grow more and more upscale, reaching to the top famous photographers?  Come on!
Yes, I can see photographers doing TFP and all that...but saying to them you will NEVER PAY ONE! COme on! I can see not paying this photographer or that photographer, but when you hit that ONE photographer, that will get you  your "stardom" that you models want, and he charges....what are u going to do?
Not saying he charges, but maybe there's some kind of fee somewhere along the line to get you to the "top".

Ok fine. You will never pay a photographer, but photographers seems to MUST pay the model because they are models for "paid assignments only". So give some photographers that are "broke" a chance to do some tfp, drop your rates for a day, and take advantage of some new prints for your book, and then maybe your next job can be a "paying" job. Then maybe you come to one where You must do the paying to get you here, and get you there, and get you on tv and so on, then maybe you should shell out the green.   

Like I said earlier. There is ONE photographer on this entire site that I am considering paying. She offers something no one else does, and her rates are ridiculously reasonable (unlike plenty of photographers on here that apparantly don't look at the quality of work they put out before quoting numbers). She also can add something to my book that I don't have, and frankly, can't find anywhere else. Her name is Viva. I'm sure you know who I'm talking about. Odds are I will pay her before the end of the year because of the reasons I've stated above. NOT because she will make me famous, NOT because she will get me on television, or for any of the reasons that you think I should pay a photographer for.

Furthermore, "ride through"...the photographer that will get me "stardom"? Ha ha ha. I truly hope you're kidding.

I can't say this enough, and I'll say it once last time. I am, and continue to be, amazed at photographers that do TFP with me, especially with the level they are at. For whatever reason, I'm blessed to be working with amazing talent. Some of this talent is nationally recognized, some of them are brand names, and some girls would kill themselves to work with these photographers...they might even PAY them. The point is, I haven't had to. I haven't had to pay these wonderful photographers, for whatever reason, and these photos have gotten me several tears, on the radio and yes, on television. There are some that I've worked with that I consider the absolute best on this site. So, if I think they are the best, why would I pay someone not as good? Makes zero sense.

It seems to really ruffle your feathers that I won't pay a photographer. But you and I have different ideas of why I should. I think I should to give me something I don't have from an overly talented photographer with REASONABLE prices. You think I should do it so I can get on television.

As far as "giving photographers a chance that are broke"....yeah right. That's fair. I suppose I should just apply the same mentality to photographers that won't work with me on a TFP basis..."gimme a chance, I'm broke". Hell no. If you're broke and your work is outstanding and I need it, we'll do TFP. If not, I'm charging. That way I can afford my investments.

-D

Daniela V wrote:

Like I said earlier. There is ONE photographer on this entire site that I am considering paying. She offers something no one else does, and her rates are ridiculously reasonable (unlike plenty of photographers on here that apparantly don't look at the quality of work they put out before quoting numbers). She also can add something to my book that I don't have, and frankly, can't find anywhere else. Her name is Viva. I'm sure you know who I'm talking about. Odds are I will pay her before the end of the year because of the reasons I've stated above. NOT because she will make me famous, NOT because she will get me on television, or for any of the reasons that you think I should pay a photographer for.

Furthermore, "ride through"...the photographer that will get me "stardom"? Ha ha ha. I truly hope you're kidding.

I can't say this enough, and I'll say it once last time. I am, and continue to be, amazed at photographers that do TFP with me, especially with the level they are at. For whatever reason, I'm blessed to be working with amazing talent. Some of this talent is nationally recognized, some of them are brand names, and some girls would kill themselves to work with these photographers...they might even PAY them. The point is, I haven't had to. I haven't had to pay these wonderful photographers, for whatever reason, and these photos have gotten me several tears, on the radio and yes, on television. There are some that I've worked with that I consider the absolute best on this site. So, if I think they are the best, why would I pay someone not as good? Makes zero sense.

It seems to really ruffle your feathers that I won't pay a photographer. But you and I have different ideas of why I should. I think I should to give me something I don't have from an overly talented photographer with REASONABLE prices. You think I should do it so I can get on television.

As far as "giving photographers a chance that are broke"....yeah right. That's fair. I suppose I should just apply the same mentality to photographers that won't work with me on a TFP basis..."gimme a chance, I'm broke". Hell no. If you're broke and your work is outstanding and I need it, we'll do TFP. If not, I'm charging. That way I can afford my investments.

-D

Bottom line is, we are getting the impression that you will not pay photographers, which is an insult, as the other left in  his statement.
Yes, i'd do tfp with you and many others to come and have in the past, yes, I pay models when I need to, and yes, I think I should get paid too with certain models.
I see nothing wrong with the all around fields in this biz to get paid, we all need to get paid, not just the model.

Some situtions, yes, the photographer wont get paid, good. But dont say you'll never pay one!
And another insult you saying that the "one" you would pay, is because its better work than everyone elses's? Maybe not better, but different style is what you want to say. Maybe this guy or that guy might have a style that the one you would pay, doesnt have a style of doing....

Dont put down people's work.

Maybe that one photographer has more talent in the photoshop department than others, maybe has better lighting systems than others, which "lighting" is the key...if you dont have good lighting, in studio, it will be very difficult to get a "look" that you are seeking.

And i'm saying about maybe a photographer "being broke" on a certain week when he wants to shoot a model that only accepts "paid assignments", hey....do the shoot...you're gonna get something or another....you'll get more photos, yes, photos! That's why u are doing this right??? You need photos!!!!! NOt money...Photos!! So the next guy that wants to shoot tfp, and u say, no i only do paid, hey....whatever........you're not going to be the next famous model anytime soon.

Example:

I played in a Rock Band back in the late 80s. We did GIGS all over the East Coast.....we got PAID from some clubs, and some we didnt....were we going to NOT PLAY that CLUB because they weren't going to PAY US??? NO! We played it!!!
For EXPOSURE, for fresh new Fans, for getting Known....

SO do that with PHOTOS!! If the pay is not there....take the photoshoot, get the photos, and move on!! ANother paying job will come along!

DOnt say you'll never pay!!! And then insult our work.

FosbreStudios wrote:

Bottom line is, we are getting the impression that you will not pay photographers, which is an insult, as the other left in  his statement.
Yes, i'd do tfp with you and many others to come and have in the past, yes, I pay models when I need to, and yes, I think I should get paid too with certain models.
I see nothing wrong with the all around fields in this biz to get paid, we all need to get paid, not just the model.

Some situtions, yes, the photographer wont get paid, good. But dont say you'll never pay one!
And another insult you saying that the "one" you would pay, is because its better work than everyone elses's? Maybe not better, but different style is what you want to say. Maybe this guy or that guy might have a style that the one you would pay, doesnt have a style of doing....

Dont put down people's work.

Maybe that one photographer has more talent in the photoshop department than others, maybe has better lighting systems than others, which "lighting" is the key...if you dont have good lighting, in studio, it will be very difficult to get a "look" that you are seeking.

And i'm saying about maybe a photographer "being broke" on a certain week when he wants to shoot a model that only accepts "paid assignments", hey....do the shoot...you're gonna get something or another....you'll get more photos, yes, photos! That's why u are doing this right??? You need photos!!!!! NOt money...Photos!! So the next guy that wants to shoot tfp, and u say, no i only do paid, hey....whatever........you're not going to be the next famous model anytime soon.

Example:

I played in a Rock Band back in the late 80s. We did GIGS all over the East Coast.....we got PAID from some clubs, and some we didnt....were we going to NOT PLAY that CLUB because they weren't going to PAY US??? NO! We played it!!!
For EXPOSURE, for fresh new Fans, for getting Known....

SO do that with PHOTOS!! If the pay is not there....take the photoshoot, get the photos, and move on!! ANother paying job will come along!

DOnt say you'll never pay!!! And then insult our work.

I'm sorry you're insulted. You shouldn't be, but regardless you are, so I'm sorry you feel that way. I stand by my statements. And I know, not everyone will like what I have to say, so I'm not going to sugar coat them.

You show me someone better at pinup than Viva. Please, go right ahead. I'd love to see you try. You're not reading what I'm saying. Go back and read why I said I want to work with her before you get all fired up. The only photogs. it should insult (maybe) is those that do pin-up. You clearly don't. Get over it and yourself.

and........""So the next guy that wants to shoot tfp, and u say, no i only do paid, hey....whatever........you're not going to be the next famous model anytime soon."

No. I don't only do paid work. I do TFP. Why on earth are we going round in circles on this one? I say no to those that don't benefit me. That's how I choose to be a model. You don't like the way I work; I'm not insulted. Not in the least. I can't please everyone, and that's not my intention. You're being rude and condescending, and, sorry, stupid saying that because of THAT I won't be the next famous model anytime soon.

Lastly, I don't need photos. I need outstanding photos. BIG difference. Perhaps you should apply the same idea to yourself.

I'm done- we can agree to disagree because you refuse to read and I refuse to keep stating my point over and over to someone that isn't listening.

Peace and GL.
-D-

Daniela V wrote:

I'm sorry you're insulted. You shouldn't be, but regardless you are, so I'm sorry you feel that way. I stand by my statements. And I know, not everyone will like what I have to say, so I'm not going to sugar coat them.

You show me someone better at pinup than Viva. Please, go right ahead. I'd love to see you try. You're not reading what I'm saying. Go back and read why I said I want to work with her before you get all fired up. The only photogs. it should insult (maybe) is those that do pin-up. You clearly don't. Get over it and yourself.

and........""So the next guy that wants to shoot tfp, and u say, no i only do paid, hey....whatever........you're not going to be the next famous model anytime soon."

No. I don't only do paid work. I do TFP. Why on earth are we going round in circles on this one? I say no to those that don't benefit me. That's how I choose to be a model. You don't like the way I work; I'm not insulted. Not in the least. I can't please everyone, and that's not my intention. You're being rude and condescending, and, sorry, stupid saying that because of THAT I won't be the next famous model anytime soon.

Lastly, I don't need photos. I need outstanding photos. BIG difference. Perhaps you should apply the same idea to yourself.

I'm done- we can agree to disagree because you refuse to read and I refuse to keep stating my point over and over to someone that isn't listening.

Peace and GL.
-D-

I dont DO PIN UP, I have my OWN STYLE...so if you NEED something a year or so down the line that only I have that style of...u can call me

Maybe She can't do Weddings, but I can....big difference......so when u need to get married, and need someone, u gona call viva to do pinup wedding...or u gonna call a wedding photographer?

Daniela V wrote:

I'm sorry you're insulted. You shouldn't be, but regardless you are, so I'm sorry you feel that way. I stand by my statements. And I know, not everyone will like what I have to say, so I'm not going to sugar coat them.

You show me someone better at pinup than Viva. Please, go right ahead. I'd love to see you try. You're not reading what I'm saying. Go back and read why I said I want to work with her before you get all fired up. The only photogs. it should insult (maybe) is those that do pin-up. You clearly don't. Get over it and yourself.

and........""So the next guy that wants to shoot tfp, and u say, no i only do paid, hey....whatever........you're not going to be the next famous model anytime soon."

No. I don't only do paid work. I do TFP. Why on earth are we going round in circles on this one? I say no to those that don't benefit me. That's how I choose to be a model. You don't like the way I work; I'm not insulted. Not in the least. I can't please everyone, and that's not my intention. You're being rude and condescending, and, sorry, stupid saying that because of THAT I won't be the next famous model anytime soon.

Lastly, I don't need photos. I need outstanding photos. BIG difference. Perhaps you should apply the same idea to yourself.

I'm done- we can agree to disagree because you refuse to read and I refuse to keep stating my point over and over to someone that isn't listening.

Peace and GL.
-D-

I don't think you meant to insult anyone you've worked with but to me you have.
For example I need outstanding photos suggests that you haven't some already.
I know if I shot you and read that quote I'd be pissed.  I would think, wasn't
my work outstanding?  Everyone deserves to be paid for their efforts the question
is how much.  There are models on this site who are beautiful and have great
figures but I wouldn't pay even if I had Bill Gates money.  There are other models
who are so gracious, polite, kind and most of all appreciative that if I would
double what they might ask for because they were so sweet.  I won't debate this
concept with you though.  I would ask that you go back and read some of your
statements and consider how you would feel if you as a photographer had
shot those images only to read some of what the model said about paying or
not paying for them and who she would pay.  I think you might be insulted.
I will say this, you are very attractive and you have a great figure but something
is missing in the gracious, polite and kind department.  Yes on the one hand
you thank those who shot you for free then on the other you insult them.
I think thats called, Damming with faint praise.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I don't think you meant to insult anyone you've worked with but to me you have.
For example I need outstanding photos suggests that you haven't some already.
I know if I shot you and read that quote I'd be pissed.  I would think, wasn't
my work outstanding?  I will say this, you are very attractive and you have a great figure but something
is missing in the gracious, polite and kind department.  Yes on the one hand
you thank those who shot you for free then on the other you insult them.
I think thats called, Damming with faint praise.

*sigh**throws hands up in air and wonders...why does everyone else assume they read and suggest that I don't?**

I didn't say "I don't have outstanding images", I said "i need outstanding images". There is a difference. I was responding to the notion that I should shoot with a photographer JUST because he is broke and wants to do TFP because I need pictures. My argument is that I don't need pictures, I need outstanding pictures...which goes back to the argument that I don't do TFP unless the photographer is outstanding..which means the photographers I've shot with are outstanding. Transitive property. That doesn't insult any of the photographers I've shot TFP with- I think they are all outstanding- why else would I post their pictures? Why would I say I feel blessed to do TFP with these photographers? Yeah. Real insulting. I sing praises of those I shoot TFP with and I keep going back to them. I have, in no way, insulted those I shoot TFP with. But, you have misinterpreted my words and saw that I'm lacking in the kind department. Whatever. You got it wrong pal. So wrong.

-D

Daniela V wrote:
What good is glamour photography (I narrow it to the field I specialize in) with a fat, untoned, pimple faced model? How great would your bikini shot look if you were shooting Shamoo going through puberty?

My goodness.  That was spectacularly rude.  I can't wait to see if there are any Free Willy jokes on page two! 

Shyly wrote:
My goodness.  That was spectacularly rude.  I can't wait to see if there are any Free Willy jokes on page two! 

It's spectacularly true. It's the same as shooting someone short and over 100 pounds for a fashion shot. It doesn't look good...or at least, what constitutes "Good" in this world.

Every section of modeling has it's type. There's nothing wrong with pointing it out.


-D

edit: I also had mentioned that to counter the argument about what models have to pay for to look like...a model. I was comparing investments, that's all. No Free Willy jokes. :-)

Daniela V wrote:

*sigh*

I didn't say "I don't have outstanding images", I said "i need outstanding images". There is a difference. I was responding to the notion that I should shoot with a photographer JUST because he is broke and wants to do TFP because I need pictures. My argument is that I don't need pictures, I need outstanding pictures...which goes back to the argument that I don't do TFP unless the photographer is outstanding..which means the photographers I've shot with are outstanding. Transitive property. That doesn't insult any of the photographers I've shot TFP with- I think they are all outstanding- why else would I post their pictures? Why would I say I feel blessed to do TFP with these photographers? Yeah. Real insulting. I sing praises of those I shoot TFP with and I keep going back to them. I have, in no way, insulted those I shoot TFP with. But, you have misinterpreted my words and saw that I'm lacking in the kind department. Whatever. You got it wrong pal. So wrong.

-D

Lastly...if a photographer offers you tfp....not just cuz he's broke...get that part out of your head, i was just trying to make an example of maybe why a photographer is offering tfp....maybe cuz he just doesn't want to pay...but anyway...if offered.....and he says...."how bout tfp shoot", I can get you some prints........doesnt mean they ARE NOT OUTSTANDING, maybe he knows he's good, but doesnt have to put the word "OUTSTANDING" in his sentence.......If you like his work....take the offer and the job and get prints....maybe to give to grandma if u dont need them.....
Maybe he/she needs them for a project...give the guy a huge favor and let him/her continue with the project without trying to scramble for someone else, cuz you have to say "you need outstanding imgages". Maybe all he/she needs a headshot, nothing fancy, nothing OUTSTANDING..maybe just for a hair salon for advertising on their window..a simple headshot...hmmmmm
You going to NOt let someone take your picture at the family picnic, because you dont need it?? Maybe that person just wants to add it to the family album..hmmmmmm

FosbreStudios wrote:

Lastly...if a photographer offers you tfp....not just cuz he's broke...get that part out of your head, i was just trying to make an example of maybe why a photographer is offering tfp....maybe cuz he just doesn't want to pay...but anyway...if offered.....and he says...."how bout tfp shoot", I can get you some prints........doesnt mean they ARE NOT OUTSTANDING, maybe he knows he's good, but doesnt have to put the word "OUTSTANDING" in his sentence.......If you like his work....take the offer and the job and get prints....maybe to give to grandma if u dont need them.....
Maybe he/she needs them for a project...give the guy a huge favor and let him/her continue with the project without trying to scramble for someone else, cuz you have to say "you need outstanding imgages". Maybe all he/she needs a headshot, nothing fancy, nothing OUTSTANDING..maybe just for a hair salon for advertising on their window..a simple headshot...hmmmmm
You going to NOt let someone take your picture at the family picnic, because you dont need it?? Maybe that person just wants to add it to the family album..hmmmmmm

Maybe you didn't hear me. I heard me.

I'm done with you on this one. It's pointless.

-D

Daniela V wrote:
Every section of modeling has it's type. There's nothing wrong with pointing it out.

No, not at all.  Of course, saying something like, "I go to the gym, get facials, etc so that I maintain the right look for my market" isn't nearly as much fun as fat bashing.