Surreal Eye Studio wrote:

When my wife was divorcing her ex, we had a custody battle over their son.  Ex-husband told the court I was the "high priest of a gothic cult" whatever the hell that is.  I guess playing in goth bands and being GAF means I'm in a cult.  I was in Sisters of Mercy's fan club so maybe that's what he meant heh...

I've been working on some for a few paysites and building content for my own paysite, but it's been slow the past month while I'm working out new ideas.

As far as market, I think the models have a much better shot at the market side from a fan perspective.  There's lots of gothy magazines out now and most of them have some focus on fashion, and I see lots of gothic models with their own paysites or selling individual photos to their mailing list and fan clubs, but I don't really see a lot hitting for photographers, at least publicly.  Still, someone has to be taking those photos.  A lot of the gothy paysites I'm working with are paying anywhere from $100 to $300 for a series of photos (some a little more but that's rare).  They prefer to work with the model rather than the photographer, but that's just a matter of working it out beforehand.

high priest huh, wow, I wonder if there’s a secret hand shake or if you just have to burn a mofo at the stake on full moons...

I think I'm jealous.

Dee wrote:
Never said I had any in my port..

Actually, not to stick my nose in where it doesn't belong but I see two images in your port which are fairly gothy I would say. Goth doesn't limit itself to strictly black clothing. It is that and has expanded to a greater field than just solid black clothing and pale face.

I've definitely seen some very valid points that I didn't think of in my exausted state regarding marketing. Hell, there is a market for the clothing, cd covers, magazines, club nights, catalogues, books, book covers, and even film.

btw....I will be updating my profile soon since I will be doing a few new shoots so finally, an update.

Surreal Eye Studio wrote:
A lot of the gothy paysites I'm working with are paying anywhere from $100 to $300 for a series of photos (some a little more but that's rare).  They prefer to work with the model rather than the photographer, but that's just a matter of working it out beforehand.

actually, in the US, rates also depend on the area you're in. i've noticed that the pacific north west pays just about half then what the other areas of the US offers.

VertigoRising wrote:
Actually, not to stick my nose in where it doesn't belong but I see two images in your port which are fairly gothy I would say. Goth doesn't limit itself to strictly black clothing. It is that and has expanded to a greater field than just solid black clothing and pale face.

The ones you are referring to, I call glam/goth/fetishy... I DO have some pale face goth work... I just dont choose to put it here... But thanks for the insight.


Here is a sample of one of my goth photos...

Black Mamba Inc wrote:
I am NEW and dumB!!  My fingers are tingling... I am looking to meet make-up artists and so on... can anyone help me?!  DIRECTORS... any directors here? hahaha... you never know!  Morning smoke is bad... not really.. hmmm... ponder...

OMG, please come to Seattle and be my mistress or makeup slave thingy, hell, I figure something out when you get here...

Oh please please please

Craig Thomson wrote:
Are you wanting to shoot some of this freaky Fetish/Gothic stuff or join some underground cult that doesn't exist I'm told...

Christopher Ambler wrote:
Come on, don't deny your membership, I saw you at the last cult meeting!

Oh SURE Chris, like they'd ever let you in the door.
You'd end up like Tom Cruise in "Eyes Wide Shut"!

Diable wrote:
Actually there is a very heavy market for it.  There are at least three magazines with worldwide publication specializing in the genre, hundreds of web sites, and a vast majority of the current social scene in many cities is geared towards it now.  In many ways goth/fetish is rapidly moving towards being the mainstream for the 21st century.  Of course for some of us it's just a passion and what we love to shoot ;-)

now i'm curious

how many goth models are there out there that would be considered sucessful?
(in my def, i would say, earning a living from goth modeling, etc)

kumi wrote:

now i'm curious

how many goth models are there out there that would be considered sucessful?
(in my def, i would say, earning a living from goth modeling, etc)

god, if you're asking this question, then all my dreams and illusions are shattered.

Xochitl wrote:
Also, what is the club with secret membership I keep hearing about?

If they told you it wouldnt BE a secret.
Plus the handshake is a bitch to master..

SLE Photography wrote:

Craig Thomson wrote:
Are you wanting to shoot some of this freaky Fetish/Gothic stuff or join some underground cult that doesn't exist I'm told...

Oh SURE Chris, like they'd ever let you in the door.
You'd end up like Tom Cruise in "Eyes Wide Shut"!

That was some weird sh**

SLE Photography wrote:

Craig Thomson wrote:
Are you wanting to shoot some of this freaky Fetish/Gothic stuff or join some underground cult that doesn't exist I'm told...

Oh SURE Chris, like they'd ever let you in the door.
You'd end up like Tom Cruise in "Eyes Wide Shut"!

That movie was some weird sh**

Photoman754 wrote:
What is the market for this? I visit some of the model's ports and they list many many photographers that they have work with and have hundreds of hits on their photos.

I personally know one photographer that gets paid $200/hour shooting fetish/SM, etc.

Am I missing the boat here? Is this as popular as it seems to me or is it limited to just a few?

No, you didn't miss the boat. Fetish shoots have become pretty popular. Look at my work for example. Started off shooting classic figure study which eventually became geared towards tats, bondage, and piercings... go figure, but I think it represents more of todays culture and it shows that people are constantly changing. i find it to be much more interesting then plane jane next door.

Photoman754 wrote:
What is the market for this? I visit some of the model's ports and they list many many photographers that they have work with and have hundreds of hits on their photos.

I personally know one photographer that gets paid $200/hour shooting fetish/SM, etc.

Am I missing the boat here? Is this as popular as it seems to me or is it limited to just a few?

There is a market for everything ... Think about and or research it; Pleaser USA doesn't stay open to make Hush Puppies. The average vanilla person, as the saying goes has ZERO idea of the DEPTH of these markets or sub cultures as the Sociology Pros would say. Are you missing soemthing? Perhaps ... it just depends on your interest level. These areas which you mentioned aren't exactly the leads we typically find in Photographers MarketPlace 2006.

Dee wrote:

What is challenging about that photo? actually kinda boring....I started shooting goth and fetish and actually had 7 fetish/alternative photo in Echo gallery last july...BUT I do agree it is challenging and a LOT of fun!

:-) With all due respect to all the wonderful talent out here. Shooting Goth/Fetish/S&M etc is like shooting any other assignment you may get. But the challenge is to know the mind set of the readership and draw them in.  If you haven't played the game(s) you just might have a hard time creating an image. If the terms Top/ Bottom/ Gore bring images of the Rocky Horror Picture Show to your mind .... stay out of the game ... at least for now ;-)  paint with light in your own genre that you understand inside and out.
XoXo

Dee wrote:
The ones you are referring to, I call glam/goth/fetishy... I DO have some pale face goth work... I just dont choose to put it here... But thanks for the insight.

I actually tend to get tired of the pale face shots myself. Actually I lean more towards glamgoth in appearance and love all the little eccentricities that my wardrobe contains. Though I hate the huge cost of the items. Nonetheless though I keep on emptying my wallet into my vanity. I know that was so off base but anyhow yeah.
Goth has pretty much broken off into countless sects of the same subculture so that's probably part of it's growing visual appeal. We have Glamgoth, Industirial goth, cybergoth, rivetheads, deathrockers, Kandygoths, Bettie Paige goths, Romantigoths, Vampiregoths, and a various amount of others that escape me for the moment. So in the end I am guessing part of the aesthetic appeal in publications is the exotic nature of it. Some people do get the whole bondage thing mixed up with the gothic lifestyle but as someone else already stated, they are more about kink and that part of life heavily consumes their free time. Whereas goths like myself just like to play with their toys and occasionally wear some of their bondage gear for fashionable accents.
I know I know, I can rant like a champ. =P

Maximum Impact wrote:

:-) With all due respect to all the wonderful talent out here. Shooting Goth/Fetish/S&M etc is like shooting any other assignment you may get. But the challenge is to know the mind set of the readership and draw them in.  If you haven't played the game(s) you just might have a hard time creating an image. If the terms Top/ Bottom/ Gore bring images of the Rocky Horror Picture Show to your mind .... stay out of the game ... at least for now ;-)  paint with light in your own genre that you understand inside and out.
XoXo

Hmm I guess I just dont get what you are saying...But I started out shooting ONLY goth/fetish/alternative work....So I expanded my abilities and now shoot other things....I can honestly say that goth work is my favorite to do because I can be as creative as I like...I put myself in the moment of who I am shooting...I have no genre I like a little bit of everything...I am a boring person on the outside, so my inner personality shows in my art...Now I dont even understands what I am saying so..I am done...

Photoman754 wrote:
What is the market for this? I visit some of the model's ports and they list many many photographers that they have work with and have hundreds of hits on their photos.

I personally know one photographer that gets paid $200/hour shooting fetish/SM, etc.

Am I missing the boat here? Is this as popular as it seems to me or is it limited to just a few?

Now that I think on it, one could ask the same question about why anyone would photograph straight, blonde, middle-class-looking women from Ohio...!

Xochitl wrote:
Good question Kumi?  I know I could make a lot more at it but I just can't at the moment & I would rather be design in the long run anyway.  Still it would be interesting know how many out there are making a decent living off of Goth modeling.  Also, what is the club with secret membership I keep hearing about?

i'd be curious
because i dont know of any or perhaps i do and i just dont know them, that are 'making a living'.

does appearing in gothic beauty make it?
does being on one of the gothic sluts sites pay the rent?
those get widespread (as it were) circulation, but still, not much else ...
hmm propaganda? any other goth things?
i cant quite recall other names, but then, i dont do goth

kumi wrote:

i'd be curious
because i dont know of any or perhaps i do and i just dont know them, that are 'making a living'.

does appearing in gothic beauty make it?
does being on one of the gothic sluts sites pay the rent?
those get widespread (as it were) circulation, but still, not much else ...
hmm propaganda? any other goth things?
i cant quite recall other names, but then, i dont do goth

I don't know about "Gothic Sluts," but yes, I find that pay sites do pay the rent. I haven't shot with many companies, but fetish sites, clothing companies, etc, do get bills paid if you work it well. I also wouldn't refer to myself as a successful model only because I don't spend 100% of my time looking for modeling work. It is one of my many jobs.
Personally, I know of  very few models in general who are "making a living" off of just their work. And by 'know,' I mean to know personally. Most models, goth/fetish/other can't do just that; they have at least one other job besides that.

Apfel Photography wrote:
I actually sat down and thought about this a while back because I had a lot of models who were into fetish/goth and wanted to shoot with me.  I tried to see if I could find the potential dollar signs in it.

I finally realized that there really isn’t any per say.  I found that these images are just like the people who live the lifestyle.  They are a form or artistic expression.  I look at some of this stuff and am often drawn to it because let’s be realistic….Fetish/Goth is all about exhibiting the primal/raw instincts in all of us.  For the most part, fetish delves into the dark, erotic, violent side of all people.  Yep, that’s right, we all have a dark side to us and we are ALL sexual beings.  The violent side?  Please, even the straightest of us like a little slapping, biting and nipple pinching.  Fetish just brings it to a more extreme thus heightening the senses when viewing it.  Goth is more the “when walking around town” version.  Dark, heavy, but without the super sexual undertones.

This said, I think that Fetish/Goth magazines are in the same category as tattoo magazines.  People like looking at the art, but these publications are as of yet not very profitable and the advertising base (where the real money in publication is) isn’t that large yet.

As an art form, it has a narrow following and even worse, those that would collect it….don’t have much to spend on it.  I have found some incredible photographers who shoot amazing stuff and can still only get about $5.00 for a 5x7 print.

So all in all….if you are looking for a subject with some strong raw emotion and artistic possibilities, this is for you.  If you are looking for a place to make a good living as a photographer, not so much.

fetish is not goth.
there are various aspects of fetish as i would guess goth
(fashion focused images to sell a product vs. images for the sake of good imagery for example)

as far as dollar signs, i prefer the pound. the royal sterling is worth so much more than a greenback. that said, if there was no money in this field, then i would surely be a lot thinner for lack of food considering this is my only job (besides that of bondage model/performer). though, you are probably more right in your guess than most models out there that want to quit their jobs to start being a fetish -goth - model. there is money in the field, but it's difficult to earn enough to survive on unless you know what you're doing.

oh yes, artistic expression aside, quite difficult to earn a living, considering one magazine i enjoy showing up in (though i will not submit contributions without the opportunity to send an invoice ($$) as well) is now going thru some changes. but then, this is a magazine that has been around for well over a decade. hmm 20 years almost i believe. and as far as their advertising base, i wouldnt exactly call their customers small . in the real mainstream world, yes, possibly. but then i also know for a fact that some of these advertisers (latex designers) are also the companies creating clothes for popular celebrities, collaborating with fashion houses, and also participating in shoots for popular magazines like vogue, marie claire, etc.

oh, and as far as 'dark, erotic, and violent'
when i do fetish work, i wouldnt describe it as any of those except for erotic - sometimes.  i dont like dark. and violent, well, i am that at times, but not when i'm doing fetish work. i save violent for people in bars and clubs that irritate me.
:-D

Apfel Photography wrote:
As an art form, it has a narrow following and even worse, those that would collect it….don’t have much to spend on it.  I have found some incredible photographers who shoot amazing stuff and can still only get about $5.00 for a 5x7 print.

photogs that i know that also shoot fetish...  um... some of these have sold a little more than small prints...


tony ward, bob carlos clarke, helmut newton, gilles berquet, christophe mourthe, eric kroll, araki, to start...

Belladonna wrote:
I don't know about "Gothic Sluts," but yes, I find that pay sites do pay the rent. I haven't shot with many companies, but fetish sites, clothing companies, etc, do get bills paid if you work it well. I also wouldn't refer to myself as a successful model only because I don't spend 100% of my time looking for modeling work. It is one of my many jobs.
Personally, I know of  very few models in general who are "making a living" off of just their work. And by 'know,' I mean to know personally. Most models, goth/fetish/other can't do just that; they have at least one other job besides that.

for paysites, i am talking about gothic paysites, one of the most popular being gothicsluts (a member of the blueblood network of sites based out of los angeles).
as far as this thread goes, i'm not really mixing in fetish sites, and fetish clothing conpanies with the goth ones.
But, if i were, then yes, it is possible to make a living from it. but it's damn hard, and i dont know many girls that do. the ones that are actually making a living from say just fetish, i already know personally, and there aren't many of those around!
gahhhhhhhhhhh

Apfel Photography wrote:
I actually sat down and thought about this a while back because I had a lot of models who were into fetish/goth and wanted to shoot with me.  I tried to see if I could find the potential dollar signs in it.

I finally realized that there really isn’t any per say.  I found that these images are just like the people who live the lifestyle.  They are a form or artistic expression.  I look at some of this stuff and am often drawn to it because let’s be realistic….Fetish/Goth is all about exhibiting the primal/raw instincts in all of us.  For the most part, fetish delves into the dark, erotic, violent side of all people.  Yep, that’s right, we all have a dark side to us and we are ALL sexual beings.  The violent side?  Please, even the straightest of us like a little slapping, biting and nipple pinching.  Fetish just brings it to a more extreme thus heightening the senses when viewing it.  Goth is more the “when walking around town” version.  Dark, heavy, but without the super sexual undertones.

This said, I think that Fetish/Goth magazines are in the same category as tattoo magazines.  People like looking at the art, but these publications are as of yet not very profitable and the advertising base (where the real money in publication is) isn’t that large yet.

As an art form, it has a narrow following and even worse, those that would collect it….don’t have much to spend on it.  I have found some incredible photographers who shoot amazing stuff and can still only get about $5.00 for a 5x7 print.

So all in all….if you are looking for a subject with some strong raw emotion and artistic possibilities, this is for you.  If you are looking for a place to make a good living as a photographer, not so much.

My friend, no offense here, but when was the last time you went to a goth club, or for that matter, a fetish club?  (by the way, kumi is right, these are both separate niches *you rock kumi*)  When was the last time you hung out with goths?  While you say there are no $$$ signs in it, do you even know the demographic of the target market?  I enjoy going down to the church here in dallas on sunday nights.  Wonderful club, and there are people here from all walks of life. 

Some of them even look as good in a business suit as they do in their latex goth gear, but I digress.   I've made both some great friends, and some great clients alike in the goth world.  It's not a market like any other, you can't just pop in with a suit and tie and expect them to fall all over your portfolio, many of these folks are artistic themselves, and having more than one thing in common with someone CAN open doors that might otherwise be closed to you.