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Models death and request for all her photos
Got a phone call yesterday from a mother of a model I helped get started. She informed me that she had passed away 2 weeks ago.She had died while asleep with no warning and she pretty much just never woke up. she was 21...wasnt informed on what her death was from. Ill be finding out in a day or so. Her mother requested any and all negatives and disc's. Im going to do it because im not really doing anything with the shots. However I did sell some of them,shortly after i shot with her. Reason why is she says that she regreated doing photos((news to me)) She signed a release and we never had any issues i also told her what i was going to do with them right off the bat.She was fine with it ((the model)). so out of nowhere the mother threatens me that if i dont ((after i already said i was going to.)) that she is going to sue me if i dont.im like wtf where the hell did that come from? ((now im debating why should i even bother )) let her try to sue me then i counter sue for lost wages and distress... so im asking you all what would you do ? ((i already have my own answer i just want to see what you all say... keep in mind that my beliefs is... i always educated and looked out for all the girls ever shot with as much as i can from fraud and what not.)) ***just so everyone knows this is an edit so new people can see what im going to do ******* first off ask for a copy of the death certificate if she is truly dead then this shouldnt be a problem.. then i educate her on copyright and that she truly has no legal action and that i could counter sue to cover cost and expenses and lost wages and distress for the whole thing. second she was a friend as well....i take care of my friends.. i am not going to charge her this. i have made a copy of the release and will give the copy to her so that she can take it to a lawyer and he can tell her the same thing if she doesnt believe me. funny part is that her daughter wanted to shoot again. so i dont believe her about that.i think it was more her trying to controlling her little girls life.even though she was an adult. however i can not and will not try to retrieve the images already out there that i do get royalties on.i will though not from this moment on publish any additional photos out of the kindness of my heart. i will be keeping the images that i have on my hardrive and on disk. with copies of the release. i am a good guy with a good heart but im not a sucker.... thank you for all that responded thats what this site is for !!!! Jun 09 06 03:18 am Link Iâd give up the photos. The mother is probably just a little upset and donât mean anything directly to you. Jun 09 06 03:22 am Link It is just money give them up and write a letter telling her mother how much you appreciated your short time with her daughter and you wish them all the best then walk away. Jun 09 06 03:23 am Link Well, how is she going to sue you? On what grounds? She has none. The photos were yours- you are the photographer you own them. If she brings up a privacy lawsuit- the only quesion will be consent. You have your testimony and a release. The model is dead so she cant testify. From a legal perspective- she can do nothing. Morally, I would let the mother know how sorry I am. I would then advise the mother that I dont give up negatives of my work for free. I just dont do it. If she is asking that I dont use the images in any way- I would probably comply with that if I didnt pay the model or have any expenses in that shoot. If I did, I would first ask that to I be recompensated. Re the images already sold- no action would be taken. Here is why- the mother doesnt trust me. If her only reason in asking this is that her deerly departed daughter is dead and had 2nd thoughts, what does it matter that I have the images. She obviously doesnt trust that I will just not use them if she asks me to. The 2nd indicator is the threatened lawsuit. This woman (the mother) has no legal right here. She is asking me on a moral basis and is yet saying that (a) I dont trust your word- so I need the disc and negs and (b) if you dont do what I ask you- I will take you to court. To me, the mother can kiss off- but out of respect for the model- I would try to be reasonable- that doesnt mean I cave- I do what I expressed above. Jun 09 06 03:30 am Link The Don Mon wrote: When sorrows come they come not single spies but whole battalions Jun 09 06 03:33 am Link The Don Mon wrote: at the time of shooting? Jun 09 06 03:39 am Link The Don Mon wrote: First I would say that I'm so sorry to hear about this young lady dying. That is very sad! The mother must be in emotional pain from her loss, and there can't be much worse pain than losing a child. You can be an older adult but you are still your parents "child" to them! Jun 09 06 03:59 am Link I must admit i reckon she is just engulfed in grief right now so i think just give her the pics and negs and be done with it no point in provoking anything and getting caught up in something that can be solved very swiftly,, Jun 09 06 04:03 am Link Nope,,, dont give them back and dont be swayed by threats of a baseless/groundles lawsuit. You have a release that the model signed, shes dead and it cant be undone. Just think of all the dead celebrities and non celebrities alike who still have images floating out there LEGALLY! Let her sue and lose. Then counter sue her back on a contingency basis and treble the costs. Nope, dont give them back. Jun 09 06 04:05 am Link baseless, senseless, uninformed threats always annoy me, you have been threatened that negates being a nice guy, let her stew, if its a matter that she has no photographs to remember her daughter by then thats a whole different ball game, but other than that business was between you and the model, i recently photographed a very lovely now deceased model , i do not use the photos except for one as a mark of respect, but i would never give them up, or sell them ever, no way, it was our business , mine & models ,no one elses. Jun 09 06 04:14 am Link My first response was going to be to go ahead and give them to her if you are not using them or just give her copies. Explaining that you do not give away your negatives or original disc. But once she threatened you, in my opinion, she crossed the line. My emotions want to say, not to give her anything (her threatening you pissed me off). Now if you want to be a nice guy and let her have copies of the images, I think that would be a great thing. But again, I would never give up my negatives or original disc, unless there is a pretty high price tag. Definitely do not discuss being compensated for the negatives and original disc. This is not the right time for that discussion. The pain of losing a child will never go away, but a several months from now it may be a little less and you can discuss being compensated for the negatives and original disc then. Jun 09 06 04:21 am Link I can't think of one valid reason why you should turn over YOUR images. keep your images and continue to sell them if you can.............// Jun 09 06 04:24 am Link Don,I've peeped your port and your work is outstanding. Simple answer, return them and go on in good conscience. You're too great to let this issue get involved in your flow and creativity. From an ethical standpoint, go with what your heart tells you. Much love.. Jun 09 06 04:25 am Link Terry Breedlove wrote: Best advice I've read. Send a card, as well. No need to take things personally - assuming this is true what the mother has said, mom is obviously under a great deal of stress. Best to let water flow under the bridge, take the moral high road, and send the stuff to her. Caio, Tim Jun 09 06 04:25 am Link dont give her the negs!!!!... sad about the death..... but the question came to mind, did the model regret doing the photos or did the mom regret the daughter doing the photos? And on the other hand.... maybe the daughter isnt dead, but trying to get her negs back for whatever reson she may have. Dont give her your work. The circumstances are sad but thats life, we all die. For all you know you could just be getting shafted. People do lie! offer some complimentary prints, ask for the address where the ceremony will be that youd like to send some flowers and have a print made for the servce. Please excuse the typos.... late, cant sleep Jun 09 06 04:38 am Link the mother is in a frantic and distressed state right now. she's not really paying attention to anything being said, so she probably didn't mean any harm but if she threatened me like that i'd counter sue if she tried to pull that with me too. i've already seen how a mother can be when she loses her child and it's worse than losing any other relative or bestfriend. Jun 09 06 04:47 am Link then it plays another side....did the model wanted the Mom to see all the pics taken if she was alive? if she regreted the shoot then may be not, then it becomes a privacy thing, if you respect the privacy of your customer then they have no right to ask to even see all the images, a release is signed and that is it...I would just stop using the images and lock them up for respect to the Model, May be give the family a headshot if they want a memory of her....other than that it ends there. Somethings you can never put a price on. And yes, legally they can not do anything and since the model did not express anything to you I would not hand over a thing...just lock it up out of respect. XP Jun 09 06 04:55 am Link XposurePhoto wrote: Thanks for bringing that point up. If the model was over 18+ at the time of shooting and signed a release, she was of legal age, able to contract for herself and operated under informed consent. SHE contracted to shoot with YOU, not Mom. It, indeed, becomes a confidentiality issue. I know I wouldn't want the photographers I've worked with to unilaterally hand over work product just because my mom/dad/dog threatened to sue them. I'm sure you're not considering handing them over because of the threat of being sued; I'm sure you're considering it out of respect and compassion for the situation. But yeah, puts you in a slightly awkward position. Jun 09 06 05:17 am Link Perez Imagery wrote: Sounds more-so like the truth to me. Jun 09 06 05:18 am Link The Don Mon wrote: The mom doesn't know you like the model did (or perhaps didn't very well either) she is suffering a unimaginable amount of pain in this situation and she could be a bit tempermental and hard to reason with...my advice to you is to yield all requested photos to her and once you have have her sign something that says that she agrees that all photos have been given to her and possession has switched sides. However, if you have a lawyer I would suggest you cover your (a$$) and make sure you aren't open to any suits...but remember, karma is something else so make sure you give her ALL photos and deffinately cover yourself...pls, do not give internet photogs and models a bad name lets leave the temper tantrums aside here and just be professional and smart at the same time. Jun 09 06 05:22 am Link shelly1982 wrote: Agreed, don't be an a$$...you have a chance to perhaps make peace...so use it and move on. Jun 09 06 05:25 am Link Sorry about the young lady dying...if it's true....as one poster put it she may be trying to get back the photos after changing her mind.....but she was of legal age...mother is out of the picture, totally......hasn't got a legal leg to stand on.... And if she was go much in grief and pain.....it certainly didn't alleviate her lawsuit mindset..... Keep the pics and negs.... Jun 09 06 05:28 am Link I'd give them back. Yes, I know since the model signed a release you're under no legal obligation to do so, but it would be the decent thing to do, and Karma comes back around on decent things as well as not decent ones. As for the threat of a lawsuit I'd probably chalk that up to the grief talking. As others have stated, give 'em back and move on. Jun 09 06 05:35 am Link The Don Mon wrote: And, are you sure that the model is REALLY dead or does Mom just want the photos back? Jun 09 06 05:37 am Link In reality, once the release is in proper order, you have no obligation to return them. I would make her mom a book and leave it at that. I would not sell any new images of her since her demise. Threat or not, I would not give up anything, how would you then defend yourself. I respect her wish but my work together in good faith belongs to me. She speaks out of pain and rightfully so, but your work does not belong to her. The mother is trying to defend the family honor... Jun 09 06 05:40 am Link You know... my reaction at the first mention of the "S" word would have been - "Sorry... I won't discuss this with you directly... have your lawyer call my lawyer" END OF CONVERSATION I find it interesting that "mom" didn't just ask for the work to be destroyed or say she intended to do that herself,... or that she just didn't want you to use it any longer... only that she wants it... intact and all of it. Screw that! OTOH... if you have sold some of it in the past... or it has been published... how the hell are you supposed to undo THAT? Does she expect you to buy it back from your clients and turn it over to "mom"? Even if you could... and, as a practical matter, you can't, so screw that too! But here's a thought... if you are feeling the twang of some moral guilt on this one turn all of it over to "mom" - everything - but deface it so it can never be used by "mom" either. Just run a BIG ugly scratch diagonally across every negative, and a BIG ugly black stripe across every digital file. Studio36 Jun 09 06 06:01 am Link say youre sorry for her loss but - she signed a release and they are legally your property however you respect her wishes and won't use them, but you wish to keep the negatives/cd's. or if you do use them, you will get the permission from her first. Jun 09 06 06:05 am Link CUnique wrote: Make peace with whom? If it was a direct dealing with a regretful, remorseful, model that's one thing but the model is dead, dead, DEAD! So "mom" is speaking for her from beyond the grave? Give me a f*****g break! Jun 09 06 06:06 am Link John Pringle wrote: "Mom" is trying to undo history! Too bad, but photographers don't come with an "undo" button. Jun 09 06 06:08 am Link Moms story sounds fishy. How sure are you that what she's telling you is true? Was there an obit or story in the paper? 21 year old models dying in their sleep would generate a story pretty much anywhere. Providing it's not a scam, the nice thing to do would be to give her what she wants since you say you're not using them for anything anyway. She is obviously the one upset about the daughter doing the photos. She's got a lot of grief to deal with and needs to lash out at someone. Tag, you're it. Jun 09 06 06:15 am Link Perez Imagery wrote: I didn't want to appear so cynical as to say this first, but since you already did... Jun 09 06 06:18 am Link John Pringle wrote: What is so dishonorable about modeling, assuming everything was in done in good taste! Jun 09 06 06:22 am Link rp_photo wrote: This would be a good one for Mandrake the Magician. Now you see it... now you don't. Jun 09 06 06:24 am Link the pics are your negs, cd's and all what is she gonna do with them use them make prints and all for free.. come one business is business.... the mother really cant do nothing at all.... i see your thoought and do the right thing but hey business is business..... are there any pics of 2pac, biggi, alliah, around... so what are there relatives going around saying dont use them give me back the negs..... come one now! lets be real.... i really cant go arond asking people not to use pics of my mother!!! n give them back to me...... i see it as an opportunity as a free ride..... if u choose not to use them anymore as on website, fliers and all theats cool but they belong to you i dont see y u would give them away even if u not using them if they on your hard copy portfolio what u gonna tear the pages.... come on now..... is she willing to buy them of you.. i think not.... u could destroy them on the other end..... but business is business now if u wanna be a nice guy its something else there is no ground for a lawsuit..... Jun 09 06 06:31 am Link Well,. if she's actually dead, we'll never know what the model actually thought. My guess is that the mom is deeply embarassed that her daughter was a model, and is trying to reduce that embarassment. Certainly for her to threaten you in this way is a good indicator that this might be true. Ultimately, I really don't understand what the grounds would be for just giving up your work. It would be like a car salesman's mother coming back to you, and saying she wants the car you bought back. You've invested in one or more shoots -- and just because an adult model dies, a relative wants all your work delivered to her? I don't see any moral quandry here at all. It's a pure, selfish stick-up job -- and she's trying to stick it to you, with no sensitivity to your needs at all. The only immorality in this whole thing is the mother's, who is trying to steal something that is not rightfully hers. By threatening you with harm to obtain something she does not have any right to, SHE is the immoral person here. If she actually takes this to court, it's going to be expensive for you, whether you ultimately prevail or not. At the end of the day, I don't get it. Apparently, neither you nor the model did anything morally, ethically, or legally wrong by taking these pictures -- except as judged by a vocal and prudish portion of the population. I am actually a bit of a softy, but I just can't get my sympathy for the mom going here. If it were me, I would fight it, until it appeared as though the cost of fighting was going to be prohibitive. I would certainly consult a lawyer about it -- and I'm not a big fan of lawyers. The fairest thing that could happen, is that if she really wants the pictures, she can just buy you out, at normal industry buyout rates. This gets her what she wants, and makes you whole as well -- you can use the money to take pictures of models who don't have a psycho mom. Wierd one, that's for sure. Jun 09 06 06:33 am Link Parents and siblings often war over who rules in the roost. Defending the family honor is simply the mother wishing to control the voice of her desire, especially when her neighbors also may wonder if the mother held the control strings in her daughters life. ie essence, the mother is showing her selfish side... Jun 09 06 06:38 am Link is asking the mom to do a photo session in bad taste??? Jun 09 06 06:50 am Link Do you know for a fact that the model did indeed die? Jun 09 06 06:54 am Link The fact that the mother is distressed and threatened to sue you makes this very complicated. My first response would have been to give my condolences and help her with what the family wished as a matter respect and common courtesy. The mother coming at you with whacked out legal threats indicates she's nuts ... temporary or otherwise. I would protect myself by NOT responding with ANYTHING that gives her more evidence or reason to include you in some dumbass lawsuit. One first thought is that the mother has a raging need to blame her daughters death on someone other than her daughter. It might be the "someone has to pay" syndrome. She may think that you led her astray. She may be assuming you are the kind of "old guy" who lures "defenseless young girls" up to the mountains for some T&A before you chop them up into little pieces. You know the sensational news stories I'm talking about. There may be some other "photographer" you don't know who was dating her, sleeping with her, giving her drugs, .. or who knows what the hell else. You may have a need to seperate yourself from more crap coming down the tube at you. I take legal threats very seriously. I've been in serious legal defense maneuvers before and I've avoided many others with careful executive decisions. I have to say that I loathe blood-sucking lawyers mixed with ranting emotional clients who are all whipped up with "sue the bastard" mentality. Lawyers thrive on these kinds of personal tragedies. Have you ever heard the low-life legal expression "there should be some money in it?" Please be careful. Your photos may be evidence to include you in a lawsuit; justified, frivolous or otherwise. I would not respond directly at this time to anyone threatening to sue me. I would run this under the eyes of a lawyer you trust before you respond. In my case, that would be a cousin or a friend over a cold beer. Who knows what some lawyer can draw as conclusions from your photo files. Next they may ask for all your email correspondence wth the girl, your calendar, and .... etc.,etc., ... and then it's beginning to sound like a deposition before a formal demand to show up for a deposition. Maybe a lawyer told her to tell you to give up the photos for HIM. Giving up the photos may be more important as part of a negotiated settlement if you have to get the lady or someone investigating her daughters untimely death off your leg. I'm sorry for the girl, I'm sorry for the girls family, and I'm sorry that the grieving mother has lost her marbles and wants to take it out on you. Please be careful. It's nice to be human, but legal is legal, and it's a bunch of crap that surrounds us in this day in age. Best regards, (name withheld to protect the innocent) ;-) PS, running this question in forums is a very good idea for you. You are drawing upon the collective experience of a large body of talent. Run some threads at www.dpreview.com as well. It's also nice that you didn't mention the girls name. You present yourself as a gentleman and a professional. Jun 09 06 06:56 am Link studio36uk wrote: If he isn't going to use the photos anyways what good does it do him to bych about it and keep photos that will probably steam other people up and cause him alot of aggravation? Jun 09 06 06:57 am Link |
