Shane Perez wrote:
Would you trust them enough to tell them about your personal life? How about to hang out with them socially? Do you trust the photographer won't go home and masturbate to the pictures?

Wow, it would make me feel pretty good to know that a photographer went home and j***ed off to my pics.    Ooh, if only I could get it on tape...to be able to hear the grunting sounds...to hear him go "UHHHHHH!"  LOL.  Let me stop before this gets out of hand...

Seriously, though, if a photographer did want to go home and j**k off to my pics, that's cool.  If he actually gets that turned on by my pic(s), hey, nothing wrong with that.   

About what you said about telling things about your personal life...I've made the mistake of telling a photographer or two some personal things about myself, and that was a mistake because it later came back to bite me in the a$$. 

Photographers usually tell me they think I'm a real cool girl to be around, and I've actually become friends with a couple of the photographers that I've shot with.

Tikeya wrote:
Photographers usually tell me they think I'm a real cool girl to be around, and I've actually become friends with a couple of the photographers that I've shot with.

So would you say your trust in them as an artist translated into trust in them as a person you would be friends with? Do you percieve a difference between the artist and the person?

Tikeya wrote:
Seriously, though, if a photographer did want to go home and j**k off to my pics, that's cool.  If he actually gets that turned on by my pic(s), hey, nothing wrong with that. 

Well if you put it like that, then I'll just keep on truckin. Woah baby!!!! (I'm kidding).

Actually we photographers put plenty of faith in our models as well - trust isn't a one way street.

Shane Perez wrote:
So would you say your trust in them as an artist translated into trust in them as a person you would be friends with? Do you percieve a difference between the artist and the person?

Yes, with the photographers that I'm referring to, I had great instincts about them, and when I shot with them they were just as pleasant and well-mannered as I had imagined.  They made me smile and feel at ease, and I like that a lot.  The one photog. I chat with on AOL very often, and the other one I plan to hang out with on Friday.  I'm not saying that I go to photo shoots with intentions of making a new friend (lol), but if the photographer and I get along that great, then yeah I might wind up with a new friend.    Now I do want to point out that I would never use that friendship to try to get things from the photog. (such as TFCD shoots when he usually doesn't do them) for free.  I don't take advantage of my friendship with people just so that they'll do me favors.

Tikeya wrote:

Yes, with the photographers that I'm referring to, I had great instincts about them, and when I shot with them they were just as pleasant and well-mannered as I had imagined.  They made me smile and feel at ease, and I like that a lot.  The one photog. I chat with on AOL very often, and the other one I plan to hang out with on Friday.  I'm not saying that I go to photo shoots with intentions of making a new friend (lol), but if the photographer and I get along that great, then yeah I might wind up with a new friend.    Now I do want to point out that I would never use that friendship to try to get things from the photog. (such as TFCD shoots when he usually doesn't do them) for free.  I don't take advantage of my friendship with people just so that they'll do me favors.

You sound (read) like a pretty amazing woman. You have a great attitude.

Shane Perez wrote:
Trust is something I've been thinking about lately and wanted to get some input from others on this. Specifically the trust involved in the Model/Photographer relationship and how that differs from personal relationships. I'm referring most specifically to art photographers who's work involves nudity.

It would seem that a great deal of trust is needed on the part of the model to participate in this sort of endeavor. First she must trust that the photographer will not attempt to hurt/rape/accost her in any way. She must also trust that he will not put her in physical danger during the shoot (something possible with my work in abandoned buildings). She also needs to trust that he will create images that will be beneficial/agreeable to the both of them and that he will not misuse those images (ie, selling it off to a porn site). This is what I would label as trust in an artist.

What I want to know more about is, does that trust in the artist translate into trust in the person? Is there a sepratation of the two in your eyes? Would you trust them enough to tell them about your personal life? How about to hang out with them socially? Do you trust the photographer won't go home and masturbate to the pictures?

Please discuss....

this statement is a little unhealthy and stereo type for me.

Notice that the thought of a model posing in lingerie or underwear

to Millions of viewers across the world isn't a concern but it is with photographer?

and we are suppose to assume things while judging a book by its cover in if the person looks shady or not correct?

Establishing new business acquaintances is equal to detective work and looking at all the pieces of the puzzle .

References are known to lie while working in kickbacks to there recommended photographer or just plain drunk in jealousy in playing games during there baby sitting job in the real world.

what about portfolio samples?  do they appear to be appealing to your preference?

Does this person have a web site www.com ?

How long has he or she been in business?

Do they have any ties or credentials to professional organizations?

Do they work from a small 6x7 Ft. corner in there basement calling themselves a studio doing massive TFP"s

Is there a long list of Tags that just dont sound right or true on portfolio ?

Who have there worked with?  What is there Mission statement?

Does he rent studio time with 6 to 8 other people for a few hours a week shooting TFP"s but calls himself a full time professional photographer studio owner?

Notice any lies?

I should start writing a book.

Sincerely
Ron Blake

Freeman Photography wrote:
I wrote a long response and then deleted it in favor of these two questions:
1.) How can you trust someone professionally if you are unable to trust them as a person?

If you are able to answer the above question in the affirmative, please answer the question below as well.

2.) What came first?  The chicken, or the egg?

Answer to question 1.) I believe that it's possible if the nature of your interaction isn't personal.

For example, I trust the company hosting my website to maintain their equipment and Internet connection on a consistent enough basis so that they can properly host my website. Most contact that I'll have with them will be by email.

In the case of my photographing someone nude, I would think that my professional interaction with the model during the shoot will go a long way towards her attributing positive characteristics towards me personally.

Answer to question 2.) The egg came first.

Tikeya wrote:
Wow, it would make me feel pretty good to know that a photographer went home and j***ed off to my pics.    Ooh, if only I could get it on tape...to be able to hear the grunting sounds...to hear him go "UHHHHHH!"  LOL.  Let me stop before this gets out of hand...

Actually, when it is out of hand, it does STOP. 

Freeman Photography wrote:
I wrote a long response and then deleted it in favor of these two questions:
1.) How can you trust someone professionally if you are unable to trust them as a person?

If you are able to answer the above question in the affirmative, please answer the question below as well.

2.) What came first?  The chicken, or the egg?

This thread was pretty much spawned from a discussion I had with my girlfriend so I'll paraphrase her view:

I can trust someone to take a good picture of me and still think they are a total creep. They might be achy for me, but still be professional enough to not try anything. That doesn't mean I would spend any more time with them than neccesary though. It doesn't mean I would sleep in the same room as them, or ask them to babysit. I would work with them because I trust their vision as an artist and ability to make a good picture.
------------------------------

What she was trying to get at I think is that there is a perceptual difference between the "artist" and the "person" and I definitely think it's true. It's something I've seen myself, in particular with non-models that decide to pose for me (which is a decent amount). I've had many girls pose for a nude project and allow me to use the pictures in my portfolio and online, and they've mentioned that they have never done anything even remotely like that, including with a boyfriend.

So what is it that would make a girl feel ok with posing nude for a stranger and allowing those pictures to be seen by thousands of people when she wouldn't do the same for a boyfriend? I believe that is where trust in an artist and trust in a person split. I think it is because the perception is that the artist is not a person like her boyfriend, the artist is an abstraction or an idea. There seems to be an inherent trust in that, just as there is in doctors or accountants, because those things are ideas, not people.

I find this very fascinating, because on my side of it, I am just a person. There is no separation for me between the idea of Shane Perez the artist, and Shane, the dude that likes to have some beers with his friends and meet some girls at a bar (well, at least when I was single). You don't know that your doctor doesn't go home and kick his dog or beat his wife or that he's hopelessly addicted to perscription painkillers, but you trust him with your life.

Yeah, there are things that lend some credibility to those artists, doctors, and accountants, but that doesn't always make it safe. Things can be faked pretty easily these days, especially online. I'm mostly amazed at how easy it would be to fake things like that if you were a person with bad intentions. I'm still a bit shocked sometimes when girls are willing to just hop in a car with me (a virtual stranger) and drive out to some remote location alone with me to take nude pictures. I try to encourage girls to check references and do some homework beforehand, but they rarely do, and that worries me a bit.

BCI Photo wrote:
Trust nobody.

Well, there's a cheery thought!

Tape Her Up wrote:
Well, there's a cheery thought!

Trust them about as far as you can throw them.

Is that better?

ADG Photography wrote:
You sound (read) like a pretty amazing woman. You have a great attitude.

Thanks. 

Claire Elizabeth wrote:
In order to shoot nude with someone I have to trust that they will portray me in a good way- as in nothing distasteful. Some people I have shot with I have built a friendship with as well so I trust them- as in I can talk to them about things going on my life and get advice. You can trust someone as a professional, friend, or both.

You hit the nail on the head.  Trust is something that is earned.  Many of the models that I've shot with have become friends.  One model in particular became a "daughter like" friend and we got some fantastic shots together because we knew and trusted each other at both a friendship level and a professional level.

Tikeya wrote:
Wow, it would make me feel pretty good to know that a photographer went home and j***ed off to my pics.    Ooh, if only I could get it on tape...to be able to hear the grunting sounds...to hear him go "UHHHHHH!"  LOL.

I am so in love with you.

Shane Perez wrote:
Do you percieve a difference between the artist and the person?

Having been around artists my whole life, I will say there have been 2 or 3 SERIOUS mistakes I have made by instinctively trusting someone whose artwork I found to be truly amazing. And I know that their art was one thing that kept me from 'seeing' all the other unrelated issues that they had.

On the other hand most of the people I make an attempt to meet are people whose work is what attracted me to them, and the vast majority of these meetings have been greatly beneficial.

I must admit though, good artists tend to arouse me and it clouds my judgement.

However, trust should not be a mindless emotion but rather a work-in-progress. True trust needs to be built. Initial trust can be built up within a few hours, in the network of a shoot...but deep trust in someone as a person, you can only figure that out after spending time with them. I do not believe in blind trust.

Vivus Denuo wrote:

I am so in love with you.

***BLOWS A KISS VIVUS DENUO'S WAY***

~Krista~ wrote:
Having been around artists my whole life, I will say there have been 2 or 3 SERIOUS mistakes I have made by instinctively trusting someone whose artwork I found to be truly amazing. And I know that their art was one thing that kept me from 'seeing' all the other unrelated issues that they had.

This is pretty much the core of what I was trying to discuss. I had previously pretty much equated good artwork with a good person, but I've come to realize through a few discussions that they are separate things. I'm not saying that there alot good artists that are bad people or vice versa, just observing that they are not directly correlated.

It seems that alot of people have trouble making that distinction. I often end up becoming friends with models I shoot and they seem to be more open and honest faster than similar friendships with non-models. Is it because the models don't separate the idea of me as an artist and me as a person? Or is it something else? I sometimes think about what could happen if they were to be that trusting with someone dishonest or ill-intentioned.

Shane Perez wrote:
I had previously pretty much equated good artwork with a good person,

Not to be blunt, but that's extremely naive. 

Shane Perez wrote:
It seems that alot of people have trouble making that distinction.

I find it very hard to believe that very many people could take that approach to life.  There are some, I won't disagree with that, but how many is "alot?"  When I think through the people I know and ask which ones would have trouble distinguishing talent from trustworthiness, I can only come up with 2 or 3.

Shane Perez wrote:
I often end up becoming friends with models I shoot and they seem to be more open and honest faster than similar friendships with non-models. Is it because the models don't separate the idea of me as an artist and me as a person? Or is it something else? I sometimes think about what could happen if they were to be that trusting with someone dishonest or ill-intentioned.

Maybe you click quicker with people who share an interest in art, but that doesn't mean they're unable to separate the artist from the person.  Perhaps you're not giving them enough credit.

I dont' know, but I find it hard to believe very many people are that naive.

Tikeya wrote:
Seriously, though, if a photographer did want to go home and j**k off to my pics, that's cool.

I'm concerned.

Nerlande wrote:
I'm concerned.

I think Nerlande, you may be keeping thousands of young men happy!  concerned?

But seriously, there are millions of images on the net, if a photog wanted to self-indulge , your photo is not necessary.  You are being prudish here.
If you PAY for your pics then you have control over where they end up.
If you do the dreaded TFP, you have NONE, your pics can be sold biguns.com.
But it is not so bad, most of the models I work with, I get to know. People become friends and do NOT do uncivilized things with your photos.

I have thrown away an entire shoot because the model "did not want her Mama to see those pics". She is now a stuntwoman in the movies.
I do sessions for couples - I give them two CDs of the sessions and destroy the rest - most times I copy from the card to THEIR laptop and delete my card.

So relax there are at least 100 million images on the net with a higher "beat-o-meter" than yours.

Tim Hammond wrote:

Not to be blunt, but that's extremely naive.

Indeed. Which is why I don't share that view anymore. I would often be blinded by the beauty of the art, and in my head that would imply that the person who created it was an interesting/intelligent person. Many times it is true, but sometimes it is not. I've learned to separate the two concepts.

Tim Hammond wrote:
I find it very hard to believe that very many people could take that approach to life.  There are some, I won't disagree with that, but how many is "alot?"  When I think through the people I know and ask which ones would have trouble distinguishing talent from trustworthiness, I can only come up with 2 or 3.

You'd be suprised. It seems that virtually none of the models I've worked with have ever checked up on references. Most of the time, the only real information they have is from talking to me and seeing my work. I find this especially strange, because many of my shoots are done in remote locations, occasionally without an assistant or anyone else around. Although it's not my preference I've had shoots arranged after one quick email and a phone call, within a day or two. Maybe it's because I *am* trustworthy and they're able to figure that out, but one would think they'd still attempt to check up on at least a few references, I know I would if I were a model.