Chance wrote:

You're off the subject with your response.  This thread is concerning models who show up to shoots armed.  I completely understood what was being conveyed in the previous post.  Let's not turn a thread about something into something else.

Hmmm. The crazy photographer friend of mine lives in GA...I wasn't armed, but boy was his locker full of fun stuff. In the shoot it looks like I am armed however. I think that some models just have a gun fetish, as do some photographers. If you can get them together, you can have a great shoot, or a NRA convention.

Mark Fellows wrote:
Oh what about tazers?  They have some really good ones, that are non lethal.

They can be lethal, actually. Which is not entirely a bad thing.

I know a guy who volunteered to get shot with a taser as part of a police training exercise. This guy's a big dog who's been in some rough trade - he said the taser took him down so hard, and was so painful, that if someone pulled a taser on him again he'd do everything he could to kill the guy before he could fire the taser. So it sounds like tasers are pretty good unless you're dealing with a dangerous person who has already got experience with one and decides that he's going to take it from you and let you see what it feels like.

Another big problem with nonlethal stuff like tasers, gas, etc, is that you reach into your pocket (fast) and pull something out - other people in the room wonder, "is it a gun?!" and, if they're faster than you are, you've got a big bullet hole in you and a nonlethal "weapon" in your hand - do not pass GO, do not collect $200.

What bothers me about this discussion is that most people in this country live amazingly safe lives. Compared to most of the rest of the world, the US is a safe haven. I'm not saying it's perfect here but it's very very far from dangerous. There are maybe a few safer places on earth (like Monaco or Lichtenstien) but if you're reasonably sensible your chances of being offered unavoidable violence are extremely low. And, if you're offered violence your chances of being able to avoid it are extremely high. The media want you to be scared - but you shouldn't be. You are in much bigger danger carrying a lethal weapon than not. Especially if you are not mentally prepared to be a dangerous person at all times. I've been reading comments in this thread about stopping power, or whatever - what a crock - most handgun fights, even at point blank range - result in relatively few hits. Unless you are an extremely dangerous person you will be so full of adrenaline in a gunfight that you will forget everything you know about gun-handling and will fumble, or miss, or shoot yourself in the leg. Unless you are in a gunfight with an extremely dangerous person, you have very good odds if you simply run like hell because they're likely to miss with every shot. Of course, if your assailant is a dangerous person, you're going to be dead or disarmed before you have a chance to do anything, anyhow, so you may as well enjoy the ride.

Too much television and movie violence gives people a completely distorted notion of what it's really like. The way it's represented on TV only happens when you have combatants who are veterans of many other lethal encounters, who are desensitized to killing to the point where they can remain cool and collected. Fortunately for most of us, those kind of people are not the kind most of us get in fights with very often. If you don't believe me, talk to someone who's seen the elephant up close and they'll tell you. Alternatively, google around for the hundreds of news stories that read like, "Police apprehend suspect in gunfight. 66 shots fired" - where the cops riddle a car with bullets and only manage to wing the target (and perhaps a deputy or two) and a few passers-by.

I guess what I'm saying is "lighten up about all this silliness." You're not going to get into a gunfight at a photo shoot, and if you do, you're going to lose.

mjr.

Gregory Garecki wrote:

heeee hoooo!

2001 - Murders in which guns were used: USA - 11,348, New Zeland 6, Japan 56, Great Brittain - 96, Canada - 198.

2002 Fatal gun accidents - 762 (injuries 7 times that much)

2003 Number of justifiable homicides: 163 (no data on injuries)

heeeee hooooo!

For every case that a gun deters violence there are many more cases that a gun escalates.

I know guns don't kill people. It's the bullets.

Your estimates are a bit high. According to the FBI Uniform Crime Report there were a total of 13752 murders in 2001, 6790 (about half of them) of which were committed with handguns. Still, that is far too many, but we aren/'t going to get fewer of them by not defending ourselves.

Marcus J. Ranum wrote:
*snip* So it sounds like tasers are pretty good unless you're dealing with a dangerous person who has already got experience with one and decides that he's going to take it from you and let you see what it feels like.

*snip* Unless you are an extremely dangerous person you will be so full of adrenaline in a gunfight that you will forget everything you know about gun-handling and will fumble, or miss, or shoot yourself in the leg. Unless you are in a gunfight with an extremely dangerous person, you have very good odds if you simply run like hell because they're likely to miss with every shot. Of course, if your assailant is a dangerous person, you're going to be dead or disarmed before you have a chance to do anything, anyhow, so you may as well enjoy the ride.
 
*snip*only happens when you have combatants who are veterans of many other lethal encounters, who are desensitized to killing to the point where they can remain cool and collected. Fortunately for most of us, those kind of people are not the kind most of us get in fights with very often.

So let me get this straight...are you saying that avoiding 'extremely dangerous people' is the answer? That is just so...so...logical. I don't know if I can handle it.

Lens N Light wrote:
According to the FBI Uniform Crime Report there were a total of 13752 murders in 2001, 6790 (about half of them) of which were committed with handguns

What's also interesting (and often neglected in this kind of debate) is the demographics and situations in which gun crimes usually occur. If you're not involved in the drug trade, your chances of being in a gun crime drop by 50% right there. If you're not a hispanic gang member, they drop another 10%. If you're not any kind of gang member at all, etc, etc...

I'm sure that, periodically, a photographer or a model is involved in a gun killing. Or any kind of killing. But if you're worried about being the .000496% odds* against you in the WORST CASE, you can cut them down to .00000001% pretty easily by just not being stupid about where you go and who you hang out with.

Remember - you're more likely to win the lottery than you are to get shot to death in a gun crime. You are far far far more likely to die in a car crash and you are far far far far far FAR more likely from being fat and wearing your heart out, or smoking or drinking yourself to death. You are at least 10 times more likely to die in a car crash than to be shot in a crime, especially since automobile deaths are less demographically sensitive. How many models refuse to get in a car? Not getting in a car is much better for your lifespan prognosis than carrying a gun to protect yourself against some media-inspired vague fears of criminality.

So let's lighten up a bit about all this silly violence stuff, shall we??

mjr.

EDIT:
(Assuming a US Population of 298 million, US Census estimate, I was off by an order of magnitude the first time I calculated my percentages so I have adjusted them)

Lapis wrote:
So let me get this straight...are you saying that avoiding 'extremely dangerous people' is the answer? That is just so...so...logical. I don't know if I can handle it.

It's most of the answer, yep!!

So the next part of it is that you should make a point of having a pretty good idea who you're dealing with before you spend too much time dealing with them. Sounds easy, huh? It is. If you're talking about going on a shoot and the guy starts telling you about how he wants to photograph you dressed up as a girl scout tied up in his basement, and how he's always wondered what it'd be like to have a sex slave... maybe check his references a bit more carefully. None of this is rocket science.

mjr.

SmartAz Photography wrote:

Tazer = A way for you to get sued.

Even if you are involved in a justified shoot in a home invasion, you will be sued by aunt Emma who will protest that her boy was going to college so that he could raise his four children.  Emma will argue that her boy was confused and got lost on his way home.  He was just doing too much homework.

Whether someone uses lethal or non-lethal force, somebody will sue.

I just put that up there for fun. 

By the way, everything is a reason to be sued in todays day and age.

Shura wrote:

Shura wrote:
And with shotguns, a .28 gauge shotgun would normally not penetrate the skin of someone who is relatively young. It is made to kill small birds, and not humans, .

Just to clear us some of the disinformation bubbling around here-and THIS is a perfect example of someone who does not know firearms.  A 28 gauge shotgun does NOT have a decimal point in from of it like calibers do on handguns.  But more importantly, a 28 ga is just as lethal as any other gauge.  Will shoot the same size shot-just not as much, the same velocities and will more than penetrate humans.

Funny, I got this info from someone who has been around guns, owned and hunted longer than I've been alive.

Shura wrote:

Bladman wrote:

Shura wrote:

RoninGarou wrote:
And with shotguns, a .28 gauge shotgun would normally not penetrate the skin of someone who is relatively young. It is made to kill small birds, and not humans, .

Just to clear us some of the disinformation bubbling around here-and THIS is a perfect example of someone who does not know firearms.  A 28 gauge shotgun does NOT have a decimal point in from of it like calibers do on handguns.  But more importantly, a 28 ga is just as lethal as any other gauge.  Will shoot the same size shot-just not as much, the same velocities and will more than penetrate humans.

Funny, I got this info from someone who has been around guns, owned and hunted longer than I've been alive.

That's a problem.  Repeating second hand information that you don't KNOW is the truth.  I understand that it's easy to believe everything you are told, but it is also easy to get bad info or slightly misunderstand what someone has told you.  Go into a gun store and ask 'em if a 28 gauge is any less lethal than at 12 ga.

Bladman wrote:

Shura wrote:

Bladman wrote:

Shura wrote:

RoninGarou wrote:
And with shotguns, a .28 gauge shotgun would normally not penetrate the skin of someone who is relatively young. It is made to kill small birds, and not humans, .

Just to clear us some of the disinformation bubbling around here-and THIS is a perfect example of someone who does not know firearms.  A 28 gauge shotgun does NOT have a decimal point in from of it like calibers do on handguns.  But more importantly, a 28 ga is just as lethal as any other gauge.  Will shoot the same size shot-just not as much, the same velocities and will more than penetrate humans.

Funny, I got this info from someone who has been around guns, owned and hunted longer than I've been alive.

That's a problem.  Repeating second hand information that you don't KNOW is the truth.  I understand that it's easy to believe everything you are told, but it is also easy to get bad info or slightly misunderstand what someone has told you.  Go into a gun store and ask 'em if a 28 gauge is any less lethal than at 12 ga.

As it happens, you are both right - or could be. If you are using the same size shot and both are standard rounds, (not magnums) then each pellet has the same amount of energy (Read killing power). The difference is that the 28ga will be using a far lighter load of pellets (say 2/3 oz vs 1 1/2 oz ) thus far fewer pellets. Is the 28 ga less leathal? It depends on the range. At typical self defense ranges of 5 to 7 yards, it really doesn't matter. If it hits dead center the victim is dead.
If you start monkeying with the shot used then all bets are off. If the 12ga is uskng #12 bird shot and the 28ga is shooting buckshot, then lethality is all on the side of the 28ga.
While the 28ga is a neat little quail gun and could do the job of self defense if called upon, I would really recommend the heavier guage using magnum loads of bb shot.
If you are thinking about getting a shotgun for home defense, consider some of the new doubles or pumps intended for "cowboy action shooting" as they are lighter, much shorter and quick handling and relatively inexpensive.

edit: this nesting thing is notworking properly. I said the last, not bladman

And with shotguns, a .28 gauge shotgun would normally not penetrate the skin of someone who is relatively young. It is made to kill small birds, and not humans.

Yeah, we used to do when we were kids!!!! You put the palm of your hand over the end of the barrel of a .28 gauge shotgun and fire it. It just makes a little "QUEEF" sound that's really cute and then you can shake the pellets out and throw them around. It's really fun!! My parents used to say, "You're scaring the cat!" and take our shotguns away because we used to use them to chase the cats around... Yup, yup, all harmless good fun with guns!!!!

mjr.

Photos2amaze wrote:
Not trying to be harsh, I guess its just going on past experiences of personal deals with boyfriends and managers.  Not one time has it ever been a benefit that I have seen.  The boyfriend seems to always make the models nervous, and in general add nothing to help the shoot.  I guess most of the times I have had with boyfriends were where the boyfriend was the one that wanted to come to the shoot and not the other way around.

I see no issue with helping models, I do it all the time.  But I just dont want to call myself a manager or go to a photo shoot with an adult model.  Or even handle their emails and who they shoot with.

Safety is very important and I know there are some serious creeps out there.  References are always a plus!

then you know what I think...not that many would care, but I would thin that this model who brings her boyfriend and is nervous with them hasnt really been that open with him and is very insecure about herself to get nervous or scared at a shoot...
I love it when my boyfriend is in towna nd he comes with me to my shoots...it heigthens my sexuality to make me bring the best outta my photos .
I dont understand why models get nervous when thier boyfriends around at the shoots.. you arent having sex with the photographer in front of hi,..your taking quality images with a photographer and you have to bring out your sexual appeal in the process...this is something that boggles my mind...

Lens N Light wrote:
Your estimates are a bit high. According to the FBI Uniform Crime Report there were a total of 13752 murders in 2001, 6790 (about half of them) of which were committed with handguns. Still, that is far too many, but we aren/'t going to get fewer of them by not defending ourselves.

OK man. The are high you say. How about we divide them by 10.

USA 1,135, New Zeland 6, Great Brittain - 96. Is that better for you?

Defend ourselves? What part of the numbers don't you get? You gun people need to be straight with us and yourselves. Don't give us the "guns don't kill people" BS or the "defend ourselves" BS. Nobody is bying it. Just say we like our guns and don't give a sh*t what they do to others. At least I would respect you for being honest.

Leah Graham wrote:

That's a bit harsh. I find it hard to understand why some photographers immediately assume that a manager or escort is going to be her boyfriend/over protective/interfere with the shoot/etc. The fact is, its not a pretty world and we often haven't met the photographer face to face before the shoot. Models who bring escorts only want a professional way to ensure their safety.

The reason we Assume it's her Boyfriend is because no professional model would bring a legit manager to a shoot.

And to be professional you let someone you know where you are going, what the Photogs name is, and have them call the cops if you don't check in. 

Just because you have an escort/boyfriend/manager with you does NOT guarantee your safety.  If the Photog has ill intent and is psycho, not only will he rape and kill you, he'll rape and kill your escort.  If someone truly wants to harm you, they will.  I don't care how big your escort is or how much fire power he has, unless he is a trained Secret Service guy or equivelent, he won't see it coming...  The only good thing that would come of this would be that while the psycho Photog is killing your escort, you can get away...but then again you could also win the lottery I guess.

markcomp wrote:
I think all women should carry a concealed weapon.

A woman with a gun is not safe.  Do you guys honestly think a Psycho Photog is going to allow the model a chance to use it?  I think not!  Check out this scenario:
Model modeling in bikini, her purse is on the floor 10 feet from her and is loaded.  Photog reaches into his camera bag and instead of pulling out a lens, he pulls out a pistol.  Do you honestly think the gun in the model's purse is going to help her in any way shape or form?

Come on people.  If you don't or can't trust who you are working with, don't work with that person.  It's not just photography, it's life!

Hamza wrote:

A woman with a gun is not safe.  Do you guys honestly think a Psycho Photog is going to allow the model a chance to use it?  I think not!  Check out this scenario:
Model modeling in bikini, her purse is on the floor 10 feet from her and is loaded.  Photog reaches into his camera bag and instead of pulling out a lens, he pulls out a pistol.  Do you honestly think the gun in the model's purse is going to help her in any way shape or form?

Come on people.  If you don't or can't trust who you are working with, don't work with that person.  It's not just photography, it's life!

Do you suppose that its just possible that she was more worried about the trip to  and from the studio than the photographer?

Leah Graham wrote:

That's a bit harsh. I find it hard to understand why some photographers immediately assume that a manager or escort is going to be her boyfriend/over protective/interfere with the shoot/etc. The fact is, its not a pretty world and we often haven't met the photographer face to face before the shoot. Models who bring escorts only want a professional way to ensure their safety.

I agree with that too,  not that you're trying to be harsh,  no I didn't read what everyone else wrote yet, but...

I am new to this and  I haven't done any modeling yet, but I have had people contact me to shoot with them and when I do, I'm going to bring someone with me.  I doubt they will interfere with anything, they will just be there to make sure I don't get killed or raped. My mother-in-law just told me a story of some people in Nevada.  A grandmother, her best friend, her grandduaghter, and a friend of her granddaughter, went to a shoot with a photographer(they check his resume and everything, all checked out too).  Anyways long story short, grandma and grandmas friend are dead and they girls were probably raped.  We are just trying to be safe.

Hmmm I like this the best...my uncle is a sniper scout maybe I should call him.

SayCheeZ! wrote:
Hire this model:



She's not armed!

HAHAHAHA!!!