SmartAz Photography wrote:
Tazer = A way for you to get sued.

Even if you are involved in a justified shoot in a home invasion, you will be sued by aunt Emma who will protest that her boy was going to college so that he could raise his four children.  Emma will argue that her boy was confused and got lost on his way home.  He was just doing too much homework.

Whether someone uses lethal or non-lethal force, somebody will sue.

There's an old saying that I believe in entirely: "I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6".
Another way of sayng it: "I would rather be on trial for killing smeone than have him on trial for killing me".

p51 wrote:
I swear to God, I rolled my eyes so much at these posts I had trouble reading most of them...
For me, the bottom line is that 99.9999999999% of all people are totally unprepared to "throw down" on someone if they had to. Handguns are mostly for deterence. I have encountered God-alone-knows how many people, men and women, who you would think were Rambo incarnate. Some actually know how to shoot. Most talk a good line.
Most are utterly harmless and would most likely shoot themselve accidently while trying to use a handgun.
I have been around guns my whole life. I took a bullet once. Had to drop someone once, both in the service of Uncle Sam (don't ask for details). I've seen people at the moment of truth, and almost NONE of them have what it takes to kill someone.
Who cares if they bring a gun. So what? If they leave it out of sight, I don't care. Let them THINK they have skills, that it'll matter at all.
Until not too long ago, I trained soldiers in how to defend themselves unarmed. I was able to take loaded (blanks) weapons away from people every time I tried when up close. It's really not too tough, because, when the fur starts flying, people just don't have what it takes...

Would you bet your life on it?

UnoMundo Photography wrote:
dress like Rambo, meet them at the door fully armed, and announce that
"dying will be done today"

I'd prefer to say "It's a good day to die" 
then, you chop them with your klingon sword

I still think that one's safety is more related with the attitude you have, than what you carry with you.

WhiteBears Visions wrote:
Good.  *I* am armed on a shoot, why shouldn't THEY be?   
I look at it like this-I'm a location photog and often photo in the outdoors.   I carry thousands of $$ worth of equipment, have a nice Jeep and a beautiful model.   I will not allow some jackasses in a pickup to roll or walk up and harm her, take my equipment or Jeep.   Period.

Jesus! have you been robbed so many times?
I simply don't get the point where you need all these precautions.
The more you do act that way, the more chances you have to deal with jackass...
btw, do you take pictures in a guerrilla like state, as some African country?

Bill Sylvester wrote:
Back in February, I had a model's escort pull a gun (to use as a prop) during a shoot.  Here's the thread:
https://modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=29677

So last night, I'm assisting another photographer, and what happens?  The model pulls a gun out of her purse. Yes, it was a different model.

It doesn't suprise me this time, like it did the last time, and I made sure it was unloaded, which I stupidly didn't do last time.

So I'm beginning to think this is a normal thing. Opinions?

I don't think gun is appropriate but it makes me wonder why did the model pull the gun out at first place?
Seems logical that she must have had a reason.....or not?

RoninGarou wrote:

Jesus! have you been robbed so many times?
I simply don't get the point where you need all these precautions.
The more you do act that way, the more chances you have to deal with jackass...
btw, do you take pictures in a guerrilla like state, as some African country?

Did you missunderstand where I wrote I've never had a problem?   Let me type s-l-o-w-e-r...

I've.

Never.

Had.

A.

Problem.

As far as you not understanding that is your own major malfunction.

Iris Markovic wrote:

I don't think gun is appropriate but it makes me wonder why did the model pull the gun out at first place?
Seems logical that she must have had a reason.....or not?

You really need to read the first post of the other thread, or my posts in this thread. I've answered this already.

The first model's escort pulled her gun out of her purse to use as a prop.
The second model pulled hers out while she was rooting through her purse for lipstick or something, I don't know I wasn't really paying attention, until I saw the gun.

Lens N Light wrote:
Would you bet your life on it?

I already have, more than once. I had someone with TRAINING, shoot a 30-round magazine at me and never even came close, and that was from less than 30 feet away in broad daylight.
But of course, it's like the old saying, "everyone is a comedian." Just like that, almost everyone THINKS they have skills. When in real life, almost nobody really does.

p51 wrote:

I already have, more than once. I had someone with TRAINING, shoot a 30-round magazine at me and never even came close, and that was from less than 30 feet away in broad daylight.
But of course, it's like the old saying, "everyone is a comedian." Just like that, almost everyone THINKS they have skills. When in real life, almost nobody really does.

You know, never having had to fire in anger, I don't know for sure if I can. I have trained, practiced and competed for 50 years (that's 250,000 or so rounds with a hangun alone), but, like you say, you don't really know until push comes to shove. I think that if I felt that someone was going to try to kill me or damage me severely, I could shoot. That confidence is enough to keep me from looking like a victim. That's a plus in itself. Still, being as I say, a devout coward,  in  dangerous situation, I am glad to be armed.

Wayne M. wrote:

Don't forget H&K, Glock, Smithfield arms, ahh the list goes on

Kimber, AMT, Colt, SIG Sauer.... I think I just completed my Christmas list!

markcomp wrote:
I think all women should carry a concealed weapon.

(tongue in cheek) I think most of them already do.

I'm in serious disagreement here. I work very hard at each shoot to assure security and safety for EVERYONE. As the shoot organizer, I've always considered that part of MY job. Plenty of people on hand, usually both sexes, comfortable with the environment, always working to raise the comfort level of the model, the most important on camera element in our shoots. Uncomfortable models make for uncomfortable looking pictures. I welcome escorts, explain the rules CLEARLY when I'm setting the shoot up so there are no surprises on arrival. There is NO NEED, NEVER a need for weapons at my shoots, or even in my studio for that matter. Maybe that's just me, but it's the way it will stay, at least in any project I produce. And I'm not a powderphobe, either. I've been shooting since I was 6, and have owned rifles and handguns since I was a teenager. There is a time and place for them, and in a photo studio isn't IMO one of them.

WhiteBears Visions wrote:
Did you missunderstand where I wrote I've never had a problem?   Let me type s-l-o-w-e-r...

I've.

Never.

Had.

A.

Problem.

As far as you not understanding that is your own major malfunction.

Wow !  You can type so slow?  WOAH !!!

And I tought people carrying big gun had some kind of problem with their, you know, penis.
The bigger the car (in this case the gun), the small is the dick.
Now I've to change my mind, and take a serious considerations going back to the mental care hospital I left

Jack Curtis wrote:

(tongue in cheek) I think most of them already do.

I'm in serious disagreement here. I work very hard at each shoot to assure security and safety for EVERYONE. As the shoot organizer, I've always considered that part of MY job. Plenty of people on hand, usually both sexes, comfortable with the environment, always working to raise the comfort level of the model, the most important on camera element in our shoots. Uncomfortable models make for uncomfortable looking pictures. I welcome escorts, explain the rules CLEARLY when I'm setting the shoot up so there are no surprises on arrival. There is NO NEED, NEVER a need for weapons at my shoots, or even in my studio for that matter. Maybe that's just me, but it's the way it will stay, at least in any project I produce. And I'm not a powderphobe, either. I've been shooting since I was 6, and have owned rifles and handguns since I was a teenager. There is a time and place for them, and in a photo studio isn't IMO one of them.

My point was not just that women should carry to a shoot, it was that women should carry period.  In a general sense you "control" your shoot but unless you are in your bunker 200 ft below the earth you really have little control over who breaks in during your shoot.  Not to sound paranoid but people are accosted when they least expect it because they least expect it.

RoninGarou wrote:
Wow !  You can type so slow?  WOAH !!!

And I tought people carrying big gun had some kind of problem with their, you know, penis.
The bigger the car (in this case the gun), the small is the dick.

People carry bigger guns because that is what is better for defense. A .357 handgun is a lot more likely to stop someone than a little .22 would. So it not the insecurity. It is actually logical.

Shura wrote:
People carry bigger guns because that is what is better for defense. A .357 handgun is a lot more likely to stop someone than a little .22 would. So it not the insecurity. It is actually logical.

Do you really think that if someone want to kill you, and he has a good reason in his mind, to do so, it makes any difference what caliber you have?
A simple dart with rattlesnake venom, or whatever they prefer, and you drop death.

For a random encounter, bigger guns on your side means that on the opposite, they're going to open fire before you.

Leah Graham wrote:

That's a bit harsh. I find it hard to understand why some photographers immediately assume that a manager or escort is going to be her boyfriend/over protective/interfere with the shoot/etc. The fact is, its not a pretty world and we often haven't met the photographer face to face before the shoot. Models who bring escorts only want a professional way to ensure their safety.

Then bring a female or a male friend thats not romantically or business affliated. I prefer to have models bring friends that arent interested in the shoot cause they will not be a bother. Managers and BF most of the time are the problem with interfering with a shoot. It distracts the vision of the shoot.

RoninGarou wrote:

Do you really think that if someone want to kill you, and he has a good reason in his mind, to do so, it makes any difference what caliber you have?
A simple dart with rattlesnake venom, or whatever they prefer, and you drop death.

For a random encounter, bigger guns on your side means that on the opposite, they're going to open fire before you.

Yeah, I really do think  bigger gun would be better. With a .22, if I needed to shoot, I would have to pull a trigger several times, and hit the target several times before it would go down, unless I hit the head or the heart immediatly. With a .357, I would need less shots to put a person down. That is the reason behind me getting a .357, instead of a .22 . Why carry something so small that you need to pump soemone full of it to get them to stop, which .22 is. I do not carry a .50, which I could never handle, but .357 is very reasonable, and that is what a lot of police officers have. And while I am a pretty good shot, I did not want something that I had to be Doc Holiday.
Going back to your thing. IT does not seem to make much sense. The .357 handgun is not a lot bigger than a .22 size-wise, the bullet is bigger and a lot more powerful however. So it would make no difference in the time that would take me to whip out the .357 ratehr that .22. And I do not carry around a shotgun or a rifle. And not many people in LA seem to walk around with poisonous darts. If  a .22 handgun for defense, you to have incredibly goode, or have bunch of rounds around and be very quick at reloading. The .22 is more of a play gun, soemthing to take to a gun range for fun, becuase it barely has any recoil and ammo is very cheap. Unless you are Doc Holiday, you want to have at least a .38 handgun for defense. And with shotguns, a .28 gauge shotgun would normally not penetrate the skin of someone who is relatively young. It is made to kill small birds, and not humans, you might as well
Some guns are just not very good for defense. And that is why people that go out and purchase guns and know what they are looking at will get something bigger.

ADGibson wrote:

You know if you shoot me with that and I find out about it I'm going to be mad.

BAAAHAHAHHHAHHAHHAH

I actually fell outta my chair laughing at that one!

Shura wrote:

People carry bigger guns because that is what is better for defense. A .357 handgun is a lot more likely to stop someone than a little .22 would. So it not the insecurity. It is actually logical.

If someone wanted to kill you, it wouldn't matter what kind of gun you had or who your escort is.  That's the scary part about serial killers.  They have usually thought ahead of your move by several steps.

Now, if you're only worried about sloppy, impulsive attacks upon you, then maybe a big gun is a good idea.

In any event, if I found out a model felt she needed to bring a gun to a shoot with me, I'd never work with her again, and put her on my "nut" list.  (everyone else has a list I figure I should start one too!)

KM von Seidl wrote:

If someone wanted to kill you, it wouldn't matter what kind of gun you had or who your escort is.  That's the scary part about serial killers.  They have usually thought ahead of your move by several steps.

Now, if you're only worried about sloppy, impulsive attacks upon you, then maybe a big gun is a good idea.

In any event, if I found out a model felt she needed to bring a gun to a shoot with me, I'd never work with her again, and put her on my "nut" list.  (everyone else has a list I figure I should start one too!)

I would never bring a gun to a shoot for protection, you are right and I would never do a shoot where I thought I might need a gun to protect myself. Our reasons for a handgun was for home defense. The only reason I had a gun at that particular shoot, was becuase we discussed using it as a prop beforehand, and I have shot with that photographer several times before and felt very safe with him.

markcomp wrote:
I think all women should carry a concealed weapon.

Amen

Marcus J. Ranum wrote:

That's a great way to get yourself killed, unless you're skilled in its use and are constantly prepared to go lethal if necessary. Most people don't want to think/live that way.

Because of the average differences in upper body strength and size, unless you're seriously prepared to use an "equalizer" a gun or a knife or a can of mace in a woman's hand turns a situation potentially into a lethal encounter. I'm not saying women should not be prepared to fight and/or defend themselves - but knowing how to fight/defend yourself goes a long way beyond simply carrying a concealed weapon.

The best defense is to stay out of danger. The second best defense is numbers. While one grown man can easily flatten most women, two women would be a much tougher battle. And (except in the movies) one guy cannot easily take on two other guys or even a man and a woman, unless he's trained himself to be a fighter.

Guns and knives, etc, are absolutely terrible as defensive weapons. The only way to defend with a gun is to attack the other guy first, which means you need to be prepared at any moment to employ lethal force in advance of an attack. Or you can hole you'll get lucky and scare them with it. But attempting to scare someone with a gun gives away any advantage of surprise and, if you're on the attacker's territory, that's a really really bad idea. Knives are even worse for self-defense because they also require that you employ damaging force against your attacker before he can kill you - and getting a quick kill with a knife is very hard and requires a surprising amount of strength. Knife-killing is not like it's portrayed on TV. Learning to kill requires a level of committment nobody in their right mind is going to be willing to make, and unless you're willing to kill a concealed weapon just increases your chances the other guy's going to use it on you.

The best form of self-defense is to have a sniper in overwatch.   By the way that gets around the whole question of a noisy escort at a shoot.   "My escort's outside. You can't see him but with his 32X scope, he can see you."

mjr.

Lens N Light wrote:
There's an old saying that I believe in entirely: "I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6".
Another way of sayng it: "I would rather be on trial for killing smeone than have him on trial for killing me".

Yep, I agree, at least I'd get my day in court, the person that required me to "incapacitate" them didn't.

byReno wrote:
I have a firm policy to pat down a model when she enters my place.  Damn! Maybe that’s why they come armed in the first place.

I'm looking for a bulge in your cheek were your tongue is, but I can't tell. D you  really pat a model down?

Shura wrote:

RoninGarou wrote:
And with shotguns, a .28 gauge shotgun would normally not penetrate the skin of someone who is relatively young. It is made to kill small birds, and not humans, .

Just to clear us some of the disinformation bubbling around here-and THIS is a perfect example of someone who does not know firearms.  A 28 gauge shotgun does NOT have a decimal point in from of it like calibers do on handguns.  But more importantly, a 28 ga is just as lethal as any other gauge.  Will shoot the same size shot-just not as much, the same velocities and will more than penetrate humans.

Lens N Light wrote:
One day, I introduced her to my Colt Commaner in 45 ACP. Now she can get that gun out of a closed purse and hit the kill zone of a target 5 times in less than 5 sec.

heeee hoooo!

2001 - Murders in which guns were used: USA - 11,348, New Zeland 6, Japan 56, Great Brittain - 96, Canada - 198.

2002 Fatal gun accidents - 762 (injuries 7 times that much)

2003 Number of justifiable homicides: 163 (no data on injuries)

heeeee hooooo!

For every case that a gun deters violence there are many more cases that a gun escalates.

I know guns don't kill people. It's the bullets.

Lens N Light wrote:

I'm looking for a bulge in your cheek were your tongue is, but I can't tell. D you  really pat a model down?

No, hence the smily.

Bladman wrote:

Shura wrote:

RoninGarou wrote:
And with shotguns, a .28 gauge shotgun would normally not penetrate the skin of someone who is relatively young. It is made to kill small birds, and not humans, .

Just to clear us some of the disinformation bubbling around here-and THIS is a perfect example of someone who does not know firearms.  A 28 gauge shotgun does NOT have a decimal point in from of it like calibers do on handguns.  But more importantly, a 28 ga is just as lethal as any other gauge.  Will shoot the same size shot-just not as much, the same velocities and will more than penetrate humans.

Funny, I got this info from someone who has been around guns, owned and hunted longer than I've been alive.