Jayne Jones wrote:

So how exactly is it that we are the only species that has sex for recreation?  Animals have sex out of necessity.  Watch the discovery channel.

Humans have a higher capacity for reason and indivdual decision making.  BTW- what does the discovery channel have to say about homosexuality among animals- it does occur?

Shyly wrote:

Uuuuuudoooooooo.....

I take no exception to your industry point of view.  I never claimed we'd see Tocarra doing runway.  Conflating that with the social issues I was talking about is just disingenuous on your part. 

Whether or not Tocarra ever walks a runway (and whether ANTM put her in there just for ratings [that's why they put everyone in there!]) doesn't have much to do with whether or not she's an example to other people of size that is positive and empowering. 

Now, I know you don't like fat people Udo, but really.  The business reasons for having her on ANTM are unrelated to the effect she is having as a force in her own right.  Whether or not she remains a celebrity in the future, she is having an effect now.  She is getting people thinking and talking about issues now.  She is inspiring girls now.  (Anyway, it’s a little bit funny that you would talk about short term careers disparagingly, when most fashion models are considered old and unusable by…what is it?  24?)  Contrary to what you claim in your quote above, she is evidence that you don't need to fit fashion industry standards to be beautiful and accepted.  (In a social context, which is what I was talking about all along.)

Why?  Because she IS!

You may not like that or think it should be so, but as my papa likes to say, with a smile and a wink to show that he's being scrappy but doing so with good humor...

Tough noogies! 

OMG i love you shyly ......couldnt have said tht better

Shyly wrote:
Uuuuuudoooooooo.....

I take no exception to your industry point of view.  I never claimed we'd see Tocarra doing runway.  Conflating that with the social issues I was talking about is just disingenuous on your part.

Sssshhhhyyylllyyyyyy....

I wasn't talking about your post about social issues... I haven't read more than two posts... the ones I responded to.

Sorry, but I have really not read your post...

OH... and I do like fat people... some of my best friends are fat... (that is a sarcastic jab at bigots... you get my point), I work with fat people and I got kissed by one recently...

My personal preference for relationships of athletic gals has nothing to do with my liking or disliking of fat people as friends, colleagues, associates, aquaintances and models I shoot.

Again, my post has NO RELEVANCE to anything you were writing... because I didn't responded to your post.

All the best

Udo

UdoR wrote:
Again, my post has NO RELEVANCE to anything you were writing... because I didn't responded to your post.

Well dammit.  Read my post, it was brilliant.

CristinaLex wrote:
the only thing I can say about doing booty mags is that you can take that money earned from the shoots...and lfip it into something good that can benefit you...like using the money to launch into doing fashion....its called a HUSTLE

Talk about it....Even back in the bible they flipped the so called "bad money" into something that benefit the people...

CristinaLex wrote:
the only thing I can say about doing booty mags is that you can take that money earned from the shoots...and lfip it into something good that can benefit you...like using the money to launch into doing fashion....its called a HUSTLE

i've been yelling that for years, but there seems to be one little problem - alot of the babes in smooth and maybe even king dont get paid from being in those mags. maybe the known names, but other than that, zero bucks earned. and plus, alot of those babes in those mags wouldnt even have enough knowledge on how to flip that bread earned into a hustle, let alone how to capitalize off it into other avenues. i do feel what youre saying though, but sadly we're talking about uneducated models in a field they barely know anything about

Sxy6ftr wrote:

Talk about it....Even back in the bible they flipped the so called "bad money" into something that benefit the people...

i dont wanna joke but ...Water into Wine...Wine aint good for the drunks...lol...But Jesus took it and flipped it for a drink for a meal .....

Jose- JoseOnline wrote:
Humans have a higher capacity for reason and indivdual decision making.  BTW- what does the discovery channel have to say about homosexuality among animals- it does occur?

Jayne - Humans are not the only species that have sex for recreation/pleasure.  You may have to spend less time on the MM forums and more time watching the Discovery Channel... or perhaps researching that which you claim as fact.

Here are a couple of links to give you some "facts" next time you argue sex and humanity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo "Sexual intercourse plays a major role in Bonobo society"

http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/pleasure.htm " Bonobos and dolphins are the only animals other than humans who engage in sex for pleasure."

signed-
a fat chick who models nekkid

CristinaLex wrote:
the only thing I can say about doing booty mags is that you can take that money earned from the shoots...and lfip it into something good that can benefit you...like using the money to launch into doing fashion....its called a HUSTLE

Or use the money to PAY SOME BILLS... lets be real
Or use the exposure to do whatever it is your grown ass wants to do, whether that be start a church or pose in Playboy

Jayne Jones wrote:

No I would not.  Just like I would never do an interview for Playboy.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...
You would pose implied nude for FREE for some photographer to have lying around his house but you wouldn't do it for a paycheck and/or national exposure?

Why do YOU model?  Because from this it sounds like a hobby, something you are doing just to do like collecting stamps or birdwatching.  Although I truly enjoy my job, I model to pay my bills.  This may be why you don't understand the Tocorra situation... its professional vs hobbist.

xJenellex wrote:
Cristal said- "You would pose implied nude for FREE for some photographer to have lying around his house but you wouldn't do it for a paycheck and/or national exposure?"


I was thinking that exact same thing...*sighs*

hopefully that youngin will find her way out of the box that she lives in and join the rest of the world...

Cristal Steverson wrote:
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...
You would pose implied nude for FREE for some photographer to have lying around his house but you wouldn't do it for a paycheck and/or national exposure?

Why do YOU model?  Because from this it sounds like a hobby, something you are doing just to do like collecting stamps or birdwatching.  Although I truly enjoy my job, I model to pay my bills.  This may be why you don't understand the Tocorra situation... its professional vs hobbist.

I don't know why it's so hard for people to believe that Jayne might actually mean what she says.  I decline paid work all the time that doesn't fit my modeling goals.  Plenty of models do, even full time professional ones.  If a project is involves something of no interest to the model, she's under no obligation to take it.  For example, most of the paid work available to a fat model diverges from my goals and my project as a size acceptance activist, so I politely say thank you, but no thank you. 

You do raise an interesting point, though, which is how morality is tied to financial stability.  (Or can be, I should say.)  Have you ever seen Maslow's hierarchy of needs?  If you're dealing at the first or second tier, where your primary concern is food and shelter, then yes you are absolutely right, certain ideas of what is morally palatable are probably irrelevant.  An extreme example is that in my current financial situation, theft is not only unnecessary, but ethically objectionable.  If I were homeless on the street, however, I would probably not be concerned with the morality of stealing an orange off the produce stand.

Less dramatically, if you're a full time model who is just barely keeping her head above water, I can see how you'd choose to accept projects that aren't actually something you are excited about, because paying the bills and keeping solvent are your first priority.   Makes perfect sense.  (Ever notice how many of the ANTM girls agree to things that they absolutely hate, on the chance they’ll be the one standing there at the end?)  Hobbyists and models in very high demand get to be choosier, generally, and compromise less, because our daily welfare isn’t riding on how often we model for pay. 

Interesting point, I’m glad you raised it.  It certainly highlights a lot of why professional and hobbyist models approach their craft so differently.  Maybe, rather than looking down on Jayne for knowing herself well enough to know what she is and isn’t comfortable with, and for being in a position to hold to her beliefs, we could just agree that there’s more than one way to approach modeling?   And Jayne, maybe rather than looking down on Tocarra and models like her for making their choices for whatever reasons they do, it’s possible to just acknowledge that their motivations differ from yours, and be glad that there are so many kinds of opportunities out there for all of us?

shimmer wrote:
There are tons of opportunities, and I hope she finds one she's comfortable with, but I go back to my original point of not casting stones when one dwells in a glass house.

I don't think she is being hypocrticial, she just has a different view of nudity and sexuality than some.  She feels that nudes and semi-nudes can be done in a way that is divorced from sexuality.  You clearly don't.  (I don't really, either, but that's neither here nor there.)  But if she feels that way, and it is the sexually inviting imagery she doesn't want to do, then bully for her.  You and I might think she already has images that qualify in that arena, but if she genuinely doesn't, then she's not being hypocritical, she's just seeing things differently than we do.

Shyly wrote:

I don't think she is being hypocrticial, she just has a different view of nudity and sexuality than some.  She feels that nudes and semi-nudes can be done in a way that is divorced from sexuality.  You clearly don't.  (I don't really, either, but that's neither here nor there.)  But if she feels that way, and it is the sexually inviting imagery she doesn't want to do, then bully for her.  You and I might think she already has images that qualify in that arena, but if she genuinely doesn't, then she's not being hypocritical, she's just seeing things differently than we do.

ahhh but see that's like saying I have a different view of the shade of green so I don't think kelly really qualifies as green but emerald's okay.

shimmer wrote:
ahhh but see that's like saying I have a different view of the shade of green so I don't think kelly really qualifies as green but emerald's okay.

Naw, it's not that simple, or we wouldn't endlessly go round and round on these forums about what porn is.  Here's an example:  I am a nude model.  Most of the images in my portfolio involve some degree of nudity.  Most don't have an overt sexual intent, though they latently have that involved because nudity always makes people think about sex, even if it's just to look at my pictures and say, "Eeewww, I'd never have sex with her!" 

Despite all that rampant nudity, I'd say that the most sexually charged image in my portfolio is my avatar, which is a headshot (and not a whole head, at that).  Why?  Because of the attitude and the emotion being projected.  I was deliberately going for a Veronica Lake sex kitten kind of look in that moment.  It's far more provocative than anything else in my portfolio, despite technically being completely PG, because my intention was most definitely naughty.

Or maybe the short version of that was that I really don't think certain kinds of green are green.  LOL!

shimmer wrote:
*shrug*

All I'm saying is be aware of the impression, intentional or not, that is created by the imagery.

Fair enough.

Cristal Steverson wrote:

Or use the money to PAY SOME BILLS... lets be real
Or use the exposure to do whatever it is your grown ass wants to do, whether that be start a church or pose in Playboy

Yea tru but thats the probelm with the models now a days..they are only doing things to benefit them selves and for get about where they cam from once they get there...not advocatiing for all or expecting them all to be like that...but we must remeber that we do have young females in college and in high schools who look up to us in those magazines....so we need to give back and try to do a lil better for our community as a black community and stop trying to be "ALL ABOUT ME" all the time....I have my ideas as to what I wanna do with my money, When God helps me get there and I am damn sure not gonna forget who helped me get here...the struggles i went through to get there.. and even the pain i sometimes felt wnating to be like them gurls in the magazines....

Cristal Steverson wrote:
Or use the money to PAY SOME BILLS... lets be real
Or use the exposure to do whatever it is your grown ass wants to do, whether that be start a church or pose in Playboy

Yea tru but thats the probelm with the black female models now a days..they are only doing things to benefit them selves and for get about where they cam from once they get there...not advocatiing for all or expecting them all to be like that...but we must remeber that we do have young females in college and in high schools who look up to us in those magazines....so we need to give back and try to do a lil better for our community as a black community and stop trying to be "ALL ABOUT ME" all the time....I have my ideas as to what I wanna do with my money, When God helps me get there and I am damn sure not gonna forget who helped me get here...the struggles i went through to get there.. and even the pain i sometimes felt wnating to be like them gurls in the magazines....


I mean when I spent my first two years of college, I wnated to be like the Melyssa Ford, or Ki Toy...I felt fat, ugly big, and plus ididnt have that long hair like most Afircan American Females claim like its thiers.....I wish that those women who i looked up to did something to encourage women/girls who do model that look you can do it..no matter who you are....but they didnt...its always all about them...

But last year seeing tyra, who has also done some extremely sexy shoots, start a foundation to show that every girl young or old is beautiful and give those girls back thier self confidence also encouraged me just like toccarra has...yes there are bills that need to be paid...but at the same time..there are a lot of black females, mainly young ones...who are killing themselves to be like those girls in the booty mags....and it hurts me...i know i used to be one of them...but seeing two great african american females: one being a big sista and showing BIG IS SEXY...and the other giving back to gurls who kill themselevs for a look and showing them they are beautiful the way they are...is EXTREMELY encouraging to me and I am proud of them for that ....

But I guess most females who make it will continue to be all about the prada, the bling bling, the manolo blahniks, jummy choos and soo forth and forget about the young gurls who starve them selves to death to look like themm

***and for a fact...more and more african american women are getting plastic surgery now a days..i.e countess vaughn***

CristinaLex wrote:
every black women doesnt have to be that big booty mag model stereotype

i understand that, but if its all they know, thats all theyre going to do. i had this same argument over at my message board, and i was telling the people there that if you have such and such babe in the middle of a small suburb town somewhere who is looking to get into modeling, naturally theyre not going to look at fashion and commercial modeling because A- its not prominent in their respective area, and B- they probably view "top model" as whats the litmus test in fashion modeling and are often scared off by what they see as something "too good" for their range. so to go to the local newsstand (wal-mart in their area) and view the mags with esther and what not, all they kinda look at is the visual aspect of it, the fact that she's just standing there taking some pics and thats it, but they dont understand the grind that goes into it, the post-production afterwards, the effort that is put into those shoots, researching, all of that type stuff.

so in their areas, fashion modeling isnt a big thing so they cant relate to it, as a place like NYC where we have everything here, a babe can actually make a living (and i know quite a few of them) off just fashion & promotional modeling. thats why if you notice the babes who rock paysites, most of them arent from places like NYC or miami because thats not the thing here.

but on another note, tocarra is a badddddddddd babe. i met her last year around this time, and even then (not sure if she was doing fit club or not around then) she was baddddddddd, and i think people made her "thickness" more than what it was, because she didnt look anymore different than the next babe. i think what she did for king was aiight, i think the style of it couldve been better (rob fein knows how to make that type of style look "up tempo" and sporty while still sexy) but overall, its not like she's going to be doing those spreads on a regular basis, so why not? elise neal did it as well, and even g-union did a photo shoot with marc baptise and despite it having a KING mag feel to it, the presentation/style was hot and doesnt give off any notion of it other than a hot shoot.

style/presentation makes a major difference in how a babe is percieved

Chuck Holliday wrote:
i understand that, but if its all they know, thats all theyre going to do. i had this same argument over at my message board, and i was telling the people there that if you have such and such babe in the middle of a small suburb town somewhere who is looking to get into modeling, naturally theyre not going to look at fashion and commercial modeling because A- its not prominent in their respective area, and B- they probably view "top model" as whats the litmus test in fashion modeling and are often scared off by what they see as something "too good" for their range. so to go to the local newsstand (wal-mart in their area) and view the mags with esther and what not, all they kinda look at is the visual aspect of it, the fact that she's just standing there taking some pics and thats it, but they dont understand the grind that goes into it, the post-production afterwards, the effort that is put into those shoots, researching, all of that type stuff.

so in their areas, fashion modeling isnt a big thing so they cant relate to it, as a place like NYC where we have everything here, a babe can actually make a living (and i know quite a few of them) off just fashion & promotional modeling. thats why if you notice the babes who rock paysites, most of them arent from places like NYC or miami because thats not the thing here.

but on another note, tocarra is a badddddddddd babe. i met her last year around this time, and even then (not sure if she was doing fit club or not around then) she was baddddddddd, and i think people made her "thickness" more than what it was, because she didnt look anymore different than the next babe. i think what she did for king was aiight, i think the style of it couldve been better (rob fein knows how to make that type of style look "up tempo" and sporty while still sexy) but overall, its not like she's going to be doing those spreads on a regular basis, so why not? elise neal did it as well, and even g-union did a photo shoot with marc baptise and despite it having a KING mag feel to it, the presentation/style was hot and doesnt give off any notion of it other than a hot shoot.



style/presentation makes a major difference in how a babe is percieved

I mean truthfully, I was born in ny but I live in an area where everyone wants to be a booty model...I see it as an advantage to make money off of it then take it to a different leve...

I do plan on having a pay site...but the money coming from that pay site will be used for me to do fashion, commercial, artistic nude and advertisement...I dont wanna just be a booty model..if I get known to be one ..great more exposure ...but best believe that the money iearn will be taken to be done for good and also to be taken to show people that I am soo much much more than a big light skinned ass

Shyly wrote:

I don't know why it's so hard for people to believe that Jayne might actually mean what she says.  I decline paid work all the time that doesn't fit my modeling goals.  Plenty of models do, even full time professional ones.  If a project is involves something of no interest to the model, she's under no obligation to take it.  For example, most of the paid work available to a fat model diverges from my goals and my project as a size acceptance activist, so I politely say thank you, but no thank you. 

You do raise an interesting point, though, which is how morality is tied to financial stability.  (Or can be, I should say.)  Have you ever seen Maslow's hierarchy of needs?  If you're dealing at the first or second tier, where your primary concern is food and shelter, then yes you are absolutely right, certain ideas of what is morally palatable are probably irrelevant.  An extreme example is that in my current financial situation, theft is not only unnecessary, but ethically objectionable.  If I were homeless on the street, however, I would probably not be concerned with the morality of stealing an orange off the produce stand.

Less dramatically, if you're a full time model who is just barely keeping her head above water, I can see how you'd choose to accept projects that aren't actually something you are excited about, because paying the bills and keeping solvent are your first priority.   Makes perfect sense.  (Ever notice how many of the ANTM girls agree to things that they absolutely hate, on the chance they’ll be the one standing there at the end?)  Hobbyists and models in very high demand get to be choosier, generally, and compromise less, because our daily welfare isn’t riding on how often we model for pay. 

Interesting point, I’m glad you raised it.  It certainly highlights a lot of why professional and hobbyist models approach their craft so differently.  Maybe, rather than looking down on Jayne for knowing herself well enough to know what she is and isn’t comfortable with, and for being in a position to hold to her beliefs, we could just agree that there’s more than one way to approach modeling?   And Jayne, maybe rather than looking down on Tocarra and models like her for making their choices for whatever reasons they do, it’s possible to just acknowledge that their motivations differ from yours, and be glad that there are so many kinds of opportunities out there for all of us?

You know, this is a really well written statement.   Many of us are too busy judging
each other and not taking in to account that there are lots of ways of looking at
things.  People make their decisions and they live with what happens.  If you can make it as a mainstream model thats wonderfull if you end up in Penthouse and you're cool with it thats okay by me.  Less judging and more lovin is what we need.

Shyly wrote:
You do raise an interesting point, though, which is how morality is tied to financial stability.  (Or can be, I should say.)  Have you ever seen Maslow's hierarchy of needs?

add yet another reason to the growing list of why I adore you Ms. Shyly....you reference Maslow's hierarchy of needs in a forum response.  Brillant...(yes..you!)