Dictionary.com wrote:
1. Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.
2. The state of being unimpaired; soundness.
3. The quality or condition of being whole or undivided; completeness.

Where's the turning point???

Jayne Jones wrote:
Good day to all!! 

I think to say that "Models are a dime a dozen" is a fair statement.  Modeling is an extremely competitive market, and the industry demands that you constantly seek acceptance.  There are moulds, standards, prerequisites, etc. etc. etc.  So when you do finally get your start. . .what usually happens?  IMO. . .this happens damn near every time:
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea … D=84704388

While these are pretty great pictures, what happened to her doing runway?  What happened to her wanting to be the next "Cover Girl"?  Did she forget the goals she so proudly proclaimed to everyone watching ANTM???  Or is she being smart and using what she has to get what/where she wants??

Tocarra, to me, is just another example of a model that so desperately wants to "make it" that she will succumb to just about anything.  How's that saying go. . .Stand for nothing and you'll fall for anything.  Yes, she's getting exposure.  Yes, she's getting a lot more work than I am and a lot of professional models that I've encountered.  But is all work "good work" (like all money isn't good money).

Dictionary.com defines integrity as:

Where's the turning point???

I guess that I am torn...I relate it to what "our" people see as going to low in the industry.  No one complains about the Pamela Anderson's and the Carmen Electra's in the business, they were both discovered by chance and have done everything across the board when it comes to entertainment...yet still have have success and even respect in the industry.  However, if a black woman takes off her clothes or does a nude love scene or pictorial, she has somehow degraded herself or lowered her standards for seeking out fame...Angela Bassett said Monster's Ball was beneath her, it help Halle Berry become more mainstream, and I don't know many who would question the direction Halle's career has taken nor what she has had to do to get there.  How many movies have you seen Ms. Bassett in lately?  So I will say that if you have the fortitude that it takes to deal with the nay sayers and their attempts to bring you down, you can push through that negativity as long as you are satisfied with what it is your doing...what gives us the right to judge?

Jayne Jones wrote:
I don't know if I would go as far as to play the race card, except to say that if you are Black. . .the general perception of "models" are either: A-your Tyras, Imans and Naomis or B-your Buffies, White Chocolates and Sacha Kemps.

Halle has some seriously dumb movies under her belt.  Then with each garment shed, she gains a more "higher-profile" Caucasian co-star (Swordfish-John Travolta, Monster's Ball-Billy Bob Thornton).  I personally had to ask myself when she got that Oscar, would she have gotten it if she didn't do that lewd sex scene with Billy Bob T???  She never got an Oscar nomination for Losing Isaiah, nor did she get one for Executive Decision.  She turned down the Sandra Bullock part in Speed, and that could have seriously helped her career.  The biggest part of that movie was the sex scene, and I feel that her "acting" in the movie could have been much better.

As far as Pamela Anderson goes, everyone has accepted the fact that she can't act and her job is to pretty much look pretty.  She is content with being eye candy.  She's never strayed from being eye candy, and most likely never will.  There's no confusion there.  If she were to try to do a serious dramatic acting role. . .she'd get some flack for that.

I don't think that I am playing the race card, I am just stating the facts (of course my selective opinion) I agree that the "oscar" may have been given for a performance that many thought was poor.  And the sex scene was the worst part of the movie to me, that goes to show how perception is relative...However I believe the academy awarded her for her range and the ability to "go there" in that role.  It showed that she wasn't afraid to go back to a role that made her unattractive, like her role in the Spike Lee joint "Jungle Fever".  Naomi Campbell, powerful posed nude!  Tyra has been scantilly clad her whole career, yet she was modeling for a mainstream company.  Where will the Tocara's of the world find a company that allows them to model their underwear?  Now the Buffie types are getting in where they fit in, and making a decent living doing it.  Is she due any less respect than Tyra, I don't think so.  And for the record, Pam Anderson has made attempts to move from the eye candy forum but didn't have success so she went back to what she is good at doing.  Everyone has the right to do what they can to gain the success that they desire.  And I stand on the fact that your skin color plays a role in how society views different levels of success...unfortunate but a fact!

Sxy6ftr wrote:
I guess that I am torn...I relate it to what "our" people see as going to low in the industry.  No one complains about the Pamela Anderson's and the Carmen Electra's in the business, they were both discovered by chance and have done everything across the board when it comes to entertainment...yet still have have success and even respect in the industry.  However, if a black woman takes off her clothes or does a nude love scene or pictorial, she has somehow degraded herself or lowered her standards for seeking out fame...Angela Bassett said Monster's Ball was beneath her, it help Halle Berry become more mainstream, and I don't know many who would question the direction Halle's career has taken nor what she has had to do to get there.  How many movies have you seen Ms. Bassett in lately?  So I will say that if you have the fortitude that it takes to deal with the nay sayers and their attempts to bring you down, you can push through that negativity as long as you are satisfied with what it is your doing...what gives us the right to judge?

Hey now!  Ms. Bassett and Ms. Berry are in two totally different boats.  I love Halle, always have, but her acting in no way even as much as touches Angela Bassett's.  She may not be doing as many huge hollywood films as Halle -- and the major films that Halle has chosen to do isnt neccesarily "the best" type roles despite her Oscar.  Angela is always working though -- she just recently had a recurring role on Alias.  Just had to point that out, I hate when I see people jumbling Halle and Angela together, because Angela is by far the better talent (who still brings in her millions so  it's ok).  Angela has integrity and is a well trained (Yale University theater) actor, she has a right to be picky (many of her white counterparts are).  Poeple like the Pam's and the Carmen's are working, of course they are they're beautiful.  But at the same time, they play the same kind of roles over and over.  No one offers them truly serious roles.  They play the game, because without it, like everyone else they would fade away.

As far as this topic, these reality show acts have a need to do whatever they must to stay in the public eye and make as much as they can.  When their long-winded 15 mins are over, it's back to normal life unfortunately (even the girls on ANTM -- how many of them are truly successful after, very few of them).  Though Toccara has done I think Ashley Stewart and Lane Bryant, how many other serious clients has she really worked for.  A lot of the other stuff I've seen her in has been the men's magazine stuff.  I love Toccara, and I really wish her well, but hey girl's trying to do what she can, and get paid before her spotlight fades to black...

xJenellex wrote:
how is Tocarra being hypocritical?


she posed without clothes on ANTM (one example: ad for levis jeans/topless) and she is doing it now . To me she is being consistent.

I think a jeans ad is drastically different from the stuff she's been doing in men's magazines lately.  I could have sworn she said on ANTM that she wanted to break the norms???  Well, I'm sorry. . .I feel that instead of "breaking" them, she's "conformed" to them.  When she did the shoot where she was beside herself, she said that she wanted to do ads that were just as glamourous as all the other models, which spoke to getting the same treatment as slim caucasian models.  Now that she's off the show, like Roxie said she's doing what she can to stay in the limelight before it fades.  So somewhere. . .I feel she's lost what she once stood for.

Jayne Jones wrote:

I think a jeans ad is drastically different from the stuff she's been doing in men's magazines lately.  I could have sworn she said on ANTM that she wanted to break the norms???  Well, I'm sorry. . .I feel that instead of "breaking" them, she's "conformed" to them.  When she did the shoot where she was beside herself, she said that she wanted to do ads that were just as glamourous as all the other models, which spoke to getting the same treatment as slim caucasian models.  Now that she's off the show, like Roxie said she's doing what she can to stay in the limelight before it fades.  So somewhere. . .I feel she's lost what she once stood for.

If you are disappointed that Torocca isn't breaking the norms, I don't think she is in a position to do so. And IF she establishes herself in this industry, then maybe she can start to set precedents.

Angel Tara wrote:
If you are disappointed that Torocca isn't breaking the norms, I don't think she is in a position to do so. And IF she establishes herself in this industry, then maybe she can start to set precedents.

I can only hope so Angel.

Star wrote:
Halle Berry did "Introducing Dorthy Dandridge" technically after Monster's Ball. I hate when two actresses are put together because of their color. Angela has done her share of bad movies, "How Stella Got Her Groove Back," was not exactly stellar. Why not compare Tocara to Elise, or to Ann who were also on the same show. Ann also was destroyed by the judges and is looking much better now than before.

Why not compare Halle Berry to others who have recently won an oscar, Nicole Kidman was also in two high profile dissapointments right after her Oscar. They are movie stars. They both work for cosmetic companies, Covergirl and Chanel. They are both around the same age.

To get back to Tocara I can think of many models or actresses who got a career boost from Maxim style photos. Jessica Biel to name just one.

I have to go now,

Star

Actually, Halle did Dorothy in 1999.  Clearly before Monster's Ball. 

Hmmm. . .Tocarra. . .Jessica Biel.  Hmmmm.

Jayne Jones then says:
"I don't know if I would go as far as to play the race card, except to say that if you are Black. . .the general perception of "models" are either: A-your Tyras, Imans and Naomis or B-your Buffies, White Chocolates and Sacha Kemps."


Holy semolians!  If this stuff isn't playing the "race card," I suppose it is impossible, unless it came from "their" people, at which time the author(s) would be excoriated as blatant bigots, and, quite possibly, banned from MM.

Universal Beauty wrote:
quote]
I guess that I am torn...I relate it to what "our" people see as going to low in the industry

Jayne Jones then says:
"I don't know if I would go as far as to play the race card, except to say that if you are Black. . .the general perception of "models" are either: A-your Tyras, Imans and Naomis or B-your Buffies, White Chocolates and Sacha Kemps."


Holy semolians!  If this stuff isn't playing the "race card," I suppose it is impossible, unless it came from "their" people, at which time the author(s) would be excoriated as blatant bigots, and, quite possibly, banned from MM.

Hmmm. . .that's an interesting tangent, er. . .I mean take on statements.  I think the poster was speaking of how black people view things as opposed to "things being viewed BECAUSE of race."  Hope that makes sense.

Shyly wrote:
I think it’s fair to say that a pretty large portion of the population knows who Tocarra is.  Not just “industryâ€? people who know a lot about modeling, either, but just average joes who buy magazines and watch tv and live regular lives.  The same cannot be said for Barbara Brickner or Kate Dillon or most other top plus size models who, while extremely successful, are hardly celebrities outside of a very specific context.

And, while I’ll be the first to admit that celebrity isn’t everything, look at what Tocarra has done that most mainstream plus size models haven’t – she’s gotten people talking and thinking about body issues and size acceptance.  She has very publicly denounced being treated as “less thanâ€? her counterparts just because she’s a bit “more thanâ€? them in circumference.  Millions of young girls saw her on ANTM dealing with size issues and fighting size bias.

At the risk of sounding totally Californian, I think that’s rad.

Remember also that crossover is becoming more and more common:  Queen Latifah going from rapping to Broadway musicals and makeup & pizza ads, Ashton Kutcher going from underwear ads to sitcoms, movies, and producing, Paris Hilton going from famous-by-birth to modeling, acting and reality shows.  It’s everywhere.  The walls between genres are increasingly porous, so who’s to say what her ultimate goal is.  I haven’t yet seen her do anything so risqué that she’s closed doors on herself.

So now she’s doing sultry shoots, and one of the by-products of that is that people are seeing a full figured woman in a way that full figured women are rarely presented – as sensual and desirable and attractive.  In a media environment where full figured women are generally presented as being totally undesirable and asexual, I’d venture to say she’s given more than one big girl a moment of pride.

I don’t think that’s all bad.

But then, I’m also a nude model, so I also emphatically disagree with the premise that doing something less than completely conservative indicates that someone is morally bankrupt.  To you it might be, which is why it is an excellent choice for you to avoid opportunities like that.  But if she never sneered at men’s magazines before, then doing them now hardly makes her a hypocrite.  It just makes her someone who is following a path that diverges from the one that you would take.

Bravo...

Universal Beauty wrote:
quote]
I guess that I am torn...I relate it to what "our" people see as going to low in the industry

Jayne Jones then says:
"I don't know if I would go as far as to play the race card, except to say that if you are Black. . .the general perception of "models" are either: A-your Tyras, Imans and Naomis or B-your Buffies, White Chocolates and Sacha Kemps."


Holy semolians!  If this stuff isn't playing the "race card," I suppose it is impossible, unless it came from "their" people, at which time the author(s) would be excoriated as blatant bigots, and, quite possibly, banned from MM.

If you don't know how to READ english, have someone do this for you!  You are taking pieces of a sentence and drawing a conclusion based on that!  Please READ the entire commentary before you try to get people banned for voicing and opinion!  No one has made an implications of race, we were discussing how things are viewed through the eyes of society...wow!

Jayne Jones wrote:
While these are pretty great pictures, what happened to her doing runway?  What happened to her wanting to be the next "Cover Girl"?  Did she forget the goals she so proudly proclaimed to everyone watching ANTM???  Or is she being smart and using what she has to get what/where she wants??

well,  from what I see in those pictures,  its like her work progressed to more sexualy liberated.  I know thats not what you wanted to hear.  But sometimes a womens goals change because she comes to realizations about herself along the way.  Maybe she never knew that she could be Pamela Anderson sexy and later decided that she'd like to be that way.

But lets face it,  you can go to college,  get a huge student loan debt and work 9 to 5 for 30 years in hopes that you'll get to travel a bit along the way and retire with half decent money to show for it.  Any wrong move could screw that up.
If somebody offered you huge money that(under normal circumstances), you couldn't earn in a month, just for a days work in sexy lingerie,  it would kind of be irresponsible to not take it. Working for a living is tough.  The industry is pure fluke and comming into contact with the right people at the right time.
Yes her goals in the beginning do matter and I can see why you would be dissappointed to some degree.  But in the end,  its not desperation if you accept provocative work,  its realizing your assets in a situation that could better your financial future(not to mention your career).

Isadora Whitewing wrote:

well,  from what I see in those pictures,  its like her work progressed to more sexualy liberated.  I know thats not what you wanted to hear.  But sometimes a womens goals change because she comes to realizations about herself along the way.  Maybe she never knew that she could be Pamela Anderson sexy and later decided that she'd like to be that way.

But lets face it,  you can go to college,  get a huge student loan debt and work 9 to 5 for 30 years in hopes that you'll get to travel a bit along the way and retire with half decent money to show for it.  Any wrong move could screw that up.
If somebody offered you huge money that(under normal circumstances), you couldn't earn in a month, just for a days work in sexy lingerie,  it would kind of be irresponsible to not take it. Working for a living is tough.  The industry is pure fluke and comming into contact with the right people at the right time.
Yes her goals in the beginning do matter and I can see why you would be dissappointed to some degree.  But in the end,  its not desperation if you accept provocative work,  its realizing your assets in a situation that could better your financial future(not to mention your career).

Trust me if I had the opportunity, those who loved me would just have to understand!  And those who have something negative to say could kiss what i twist and I don't mean my wrist!

Sxy6ftr wrote:

Trust me if I had the opportunity, those who loved me would just have to understand!  And those who have something negative to say could kiss what i twist and I don't mean my wrist!

The above edit for reader ease

Are you saying that the same set of photo's would be unacceptable if not for significant monetary gain?
If so, doesn't that put us back at the ever popular "would you sleep with me for $1,000,000? ..."?

NewBoldPhoto wrote:

The above edit for reader ease

Are you saying that the same set of photo's would be unacceptable if not for significant monetary gain?
If so, doesn't that put us back at the ever popular "would you sleep with me for $1,000,000? ..."?

First let me say, that people who go into these threads and don't know to edit qoutes and they get named by different people and then someone thinks someone said what they didn't say....so I am going to go through the qoutes and get them straight so that you have an idea of who said what before someone sounds off on me and gets their feeling hurt.

sxy6ftr wrote:
I guess that I am torn...I relate it to what "our" people see as going to low in the industry

[qoute=]Jayne Jones then says:
"I don't know if I would go as far as to play the race card, except to say that if you are Black. . .the general perception of "models" are either: A-your Tyras, Imans and Naomis or B-your Buffies, White Chocolates and Sacha Kemps."[/qoute]

Universal Beauty wrote:
Holy semolians!  If this stuff isn't playing the "race card," I suppose it is impossible, unless it came from "their" people, at which time the author(s) would be excoriated as blatant bigots, and, quite possibly, banned from MM.

damn!

NewBoldPhoto wrote:

The above edit for reader ease

Are you saying that the same set of photo's would be unacceptable if not for significant monetary gain?
If so, doesn't that put us back at the ever popular "would you sleep with me for $1,000,000? ..."?

Back to this qoute...I said that if someone would pay my non-model ass to show my non-model body in a publication that is sold in upwards of 400, 000 copies plus, I would!  and every model & non-model on this damn site would.  We do TFCD & TFP just trying to get noticed and you honestly would tell me that if the rubber hit the road and one of these, "I don't pose"....models wouldn't do a spread in a mag that didn't show nudity, it implied nudity?  If they say they wouldn't have taken that paid job which I am sure she was paid a decent wage...they are lying their asses off!!!! I am finished with this subject!!!!

NewBoldPhoto wrote:
The above edit for reader ease

Are you saying that the same set of photo's would be unacceptable if not for significant monetary gain?
If so, doesn't that put us back at the ever popular "would you sleep with me for $1,000,000? ..."?

Sxy6ftr wrote:
Back to this qoute...I said that if someone would pay my non-model ass to show my non-model body in a publication that is sold in upwards of 400, 000 copies plus, I would!  and every model & non-model on this damn site would.  We do TFCD & TFP just trying to get noticed and you honestly would tell me that if the rubber hit the road and one of these, "I don't pose"....models wouldn't do a spread in a mag that didn't show nudity, it implied nudity?  If they say they wouldn't have taken that paid job which I am sure she was paid a decent wage...they are lying their asses off!!!! I am finished with this subject!!!!

I can only speak for myself.  As I said in my last post, I struggle with what may be deemed "acceptable" in the eyes of many that may gaze upon any work that I do.  I have a lot of people to think about.  For me, part of being a God-fearing Christian woman is making choices that will not hinder my walk with Christ.  Sometimes those decisions may be viewed as "stupid" just because the average person is willing to trade items like dignity, self-respect, comfort, morals, values, etc. for money.  Now I'm not saying that anyone that poses nude (or implied nude) is giving up their self-worth.  What I am saying is that if you go into any business (be it modeling or manufacturing) you are inevitably going to be faced with making a decision that questions your individual moral integrity.  I feel like the previous poster said that a lot of people will do damn near any and every thing for money (yes, I know I'm taking her somewhat out of context).  But I still stand behind the fact that all money isn't good money.  If that makes me stupid. . .fine.

Good money, Bad money, WTF young lady, In my opinion you should not put your relationship with your higher power into play, because I wonder what the women in your church would think of that relationship seeing the pics in your port?  Just as that question seems judgemental, your continued desire to clarify someone elses integrity passes the same judgement.  What does the bible say about throwing stones....Please think about EVERYTHING your saying because you are now crossing over into sensitive territory.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I don't Black people should somehow be held to some higher moral standard then any other group.  She's pretty has a sexy figure, magazines want to shoot her
in her panties and men will buy that.  Halle is an actress she didn't always get to
choose the roles she might play.  Thats the nature of the bussiness.  Remember
Will Smith in Three degrees of Seperation?  His role had him play a gay man who
kissed another male actor.  Now and then Halle had choices though but for those
who feel sex and or nudity is wrong to show are cool with violence(another thread)
We are all free to decide what we will and won't do.  Turn down roles and you may
keep you honour as it is but you'll be broke and or maybe not working much.
I'm not saying do anything for money but these aren't nuns or preachers they are
mostly decent people trying to work.  By the way I though Ms. T looked great in
her shoots but I'm just a man who loves sexy sistas in as little as possible.

Hey Tony the name of the movies is "SIX degrees of seperation[image]http://modelmayhem.com/images/smilies/wink.png[/image]but point well taken...

Sxy6ftr wrote:
Good money, Bad money, WTF young lady, In my opinion you should not put your relationship with your higher power into play, because I wonder what the women in your church would think of that relationship seeing the pics in your port?  Just as that question seems judgemental, your continued desire to clarify someone elses integrity passes the same judgement.  What does the bible say about throwing stones....Please think about EVERYTHING your saying because you are now crossing over into sensitive territory.

I do.  Believe me.  I've never done anything that I would feel ashamed of should someone in my church see it.  None of my photos sell sex.  But any and everything can be misinterpreted because everyone has an opinion. 

At 28, I do believe there is a difference between good money and bad money.  It may spend the same, but that doesn't exactly mean the ends justify the means.  You want an extreme example. . .drug money.  I think you know the difference as well, which is most likely why I can probably assume you've taught your children to make an honest living.  But hey. . .if you are okay with making a dollar however. . .that's you and more power to you.  I'm not.  That's all I'm saying.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Halle is an actress she didn't always get to
choose the roles she might play.  Thats the nature of the bussiness.  Remember
Will Smith in Three degrees of Seperation?  His role had him play a gay man who
kissed another male actor.

I believe that is precisely why he decided to do that part.  Before that movie (which is considered to be his first breakout/through movie), he was pretty much a comedic actor.  He said he chose that part because it was dramatic, edgy, taboo, and something he had never done before.  Every actor/actress has the option to decline a role.  Some get scripts mailed to them/their agents. . .some hear about it and go audition.  Either way. . .they have the choice.

I find it funny that you mentioned Will Smith, because Eminem said "Will Smith doesn't have to cuss in his rhymes to sell records.  Well I do.  So fuck him and fuck you too."  I thought that was the funniest line in that song, but it's the truth (25 million in album sales and four grammys. . .including the first grammy ever won for rap in '88).  Will has also never done a love scene with a woman other than Jada. . .his wife.  He "implied" several, but there was actually no "on camera" love scene outside of the one he did in Ali with Jada.  I think that Will possesses a strong level of integrity and clearly it shows in his work.  No one can say that he's not successful.

Jayne Jones wrote:
Halle wants to be taken seriously as a dramatic actress

Which is why she did catwoman?

Jayne Jones wrote:
Halle wants to be taken seriously as a dramatic actress

shimmer wrote:
Which is why she did catwoman?

*LOL*  Exactly!  *LOL*

Jayne Jones wrote:
Is it really successful if you are being hypocritical?  Perfect example is Jessica Simpson.  In her E True Hollywood story, her father was interviewed.  He said that she really wanted to be a successful Gospel singer, but when she "blossomed" she wasn't taken seriously.  So what does he help her do???  Become a sex symbol.  I thought that her being viewed as overtly sexy was what was "hindering what she really wants to do which is sing Gospel."  She sold out.  Just like so many do.

How did she sell out? Jessica hasn't done any nudes, or any crazy sex scenes. Personal life aside, what exactly did she do that sold out?
She found that she could have a more lucrative career in mainstream pop music, and she tweaked her image that she could gain more success.
Yes, she's done blender and I believe FHM, but those aren't nudes...
Becoming a sex symbol?
I don't think you can call that selling out, particularly when you speak of your faith and yet have images on your profile that show you in your underthings, or intimate that you are nude or nearly so, and state you would do implied or total nudity depending on the assignment.
Is that not the same as working toward the goal of being or appearing to be a sex symbol? Therefore would it not be fair to say that you by your own description of what a "sellout" is, have sold out yourself?