Jayne Jones wrote:
Is it really successful if you are being hypocritical?  Perfect example is Jessica Simpson.  In her E True Hollywood story, her father was interviewed.  He said that she really wanted to be a successful Gospel singer, but when she "blossomed" she wasn't taken seriously.  So what does he help her do???  Become a sex symbol.  I thought that her being viewed as overtly sexy was what was "hindering what she really wants to do which is sing Gospel."  She sold out.  Just like so many do.

shimmer wrote:
How did she sell out? Jessica hasn't done any nudes, or any crazy sex scenes. Personal life aside, what exactly did she do that sold out?
She found that she could have a more lucrative career in mainstream pop music, and she tweaked her image that she could gain more success.
Yes, she's done blender and I believe FHM, but those aren't nudes...
Becoming a sex symbol?
I don't think you can call that selling out, particularly when you speak of your faith and yet have images on your profile that show you in your underthings, or intimate that you are nude or nearly so, and state you would do implied or total nudity depending on the assignment.
Is that not the same as working toward the goal of being or appearing to be a sex symbol? Therefore would it not be fair to say that you by your own description of what a "sellout" is, have sold out yourself?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  My images do not sell sex.  Period.  Jessica says she wants to sing gospel, but instead she makes raunchy videos (see the "boots are made for walking" video).  Why???  Because she can make more money at it.  How exactly is that not selling out???  There is a difference in being "sexy" and "sexual."  More specifically, "being" sexy and "selling" sex.

Concerning what I will/will not do. . .keyword: Tasteful.

Jose- JoseOnline wrote:
What is this ladies problem with sex?  If not for sex and sexual desire- our civilization would die out.

So how exactly is it that we are the only species that has sex for recreation?  Animals have sex out of necessity.  Watch the discovery channel.

I don't have a problem with sex.  I don't have a problem with sexuality.  I don't have a problem with nudity.  I have a problem with smut and women being treated as objects.  Not only that, but the premise that it's okay for people to continue doing so in the name of making a dollar, or getting exposure.  I've said that several times.  End of story.

Jayne Jones wrote:

Jayne Jones wrote:
Is it really successful if you are being hypocritical?  Perfect example is Jessica Simpson.  In her E True Hollywood story, her father was interviewed.  He said that she really wanted to be a successful Gospel singer, but when she "blossomed" she wasn't taken seriously.  So what does he help her do???  Become a sex symbol.  I thought that her being viewed as overtly sexy was what was "hindering what she really wants to do which is sing Gospel."  She sold out.  Just like so many do.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  My images do not sell sex.  Period.  Jessica says she wants to sing gospel, but instead she makes raunchy videos (see the "boots are made for walking" video).  Why???  Because she can make more money at it.  How exactly is that not selling out???  There is a difference in being "sexy" and "sexual."

Concerning what I will/will not do. . .keyword: Tasteful.

so sitting in your bra and fishnets is not a sexual image? And anyone who takes it as such is the one with the mind in the gutter, not you?
Having a shot that goes straight down between your breasts and highlights the valley between the two whilst showing you looking up and smiling is not a sexual image?

I have a news flash.


Yes. It is.

It's our impression because that was the intendedresponse of your shot.

I'm not attacking you, however, I must respectfully disagree with you on this issue.

Jose- JoseOnline wrote:
What is this ladies problem with sex?  If not for sex and sexual desire- our civilization would die out.

yea but if you think about it sometimes it is forced or persuaded more towards women than men....

Jose- JoseOnline wrote:
What is this ladies problem with sex?  If not for sex and sexual desire- our civilization would die out.

yea but if you think about it sometimes it is forced or persuaded more towards women than men....Now imma make it  a MAN/Woman Issue lol

Jayne Jones wrote:
Concerning what I will/will not do. . .keyword: Tasteful.

shimmer wrote:
so sitting in your bra and fishnets is not a sexual image? And anyone who takes it as such is the one with the mind in the gutter, not you?
Having a shot that goes straight down between your breasts and highlights the valley between the two whilst showing you looking up and smiling is not a sexual image?

I have a news flash.


Yes. It is.

It's our impression because that was the intendedresponse of your shot.

I'm not attacking you, however, I must respectfully disagree with you on this issue.

Ok.  Here's my thoughts on the subject.  Let's use this example: Model poses in swimsuit.  Same model, two different poses.

First one: She's standing in a pretty basic pose, with one hand casually at her side, the other hand brushing against her breast.

Second one: Same stance, except this time she has one thumb from one hand in one side of her bikini bottom, the other hand is pulling the other side of her bikini down. 

IMO the first picture is a sexy picture.  The second picture is a sexually explicit picture.  Does that make sense to you now???  Sure everything is relative, and no two people will view the same picture the same way.  It still doesn't change my opinion of what's going on in the second picture in the example I used.

Jayne Jones wrote:

Ok.  Here's my thoughts on the subject.  Let's use this example: Model poses in swimsuit.  Same model, two different poses.

First one: She's standing in a pretty basic pose, with one hand casually at her side, the other hand brushing against her breast.

Second one: Same stance, except this time she has one thumb from one hand in one side of her bikini bottom, the other hand is pulling the other side of her bikini down. 

IMO the first picture is a sexy picture.  The second picture is a sexually explicit picture.  Does that make sense to you now???  Sure everything is relative, and no two people will view the same picture the same way.  It still doesn't change my opinion of what's going on in the second picture in the example I used.

But both images seek to elicit a certain response.
The first picture is more along the lines of a Target catalogue showing their new line (excepting the hand at the breast thing), the second is not.

What is the intention with your pictures? To show that you have underwear and breasts? Or is there a commercial intention there that I'm uninformed and am missing?

Jose- JoseOnline wrote:
What is this ladies problem with sex?  If not for sex and sexual desire- our civilization would die out.

CristinaLex wrote:
yea but if you think about it sometimes it is forced or persuaded more towards women than men....

I totally agree Cristina.  I'm just saying there is a difference between tastefully showing a little T&A and allowing yourself to be objectified because you have T&A.  Even here on MM, a lot of models get flack b/c their ports don't have enough T&A in them.  They're not deemed "hotties" because they don't show enough skin.  Notice though. . .those comments are all directed at women. 

Why are women regarded as objects, and why do women allow this degradation merely because they are being financially compensated???  I don't understand why this doesn't make sense.  Perhaps if I wasn't so well endowed with T&A someone would take me more seriously??  Perhaps if I took the two "sexy" pictures I have out of my port???  *ponders*

Nah!  Then everyone would say I was complaining/hating b/c I didn't have any T or A. . .and that I'm hatin because I didn't have any "good" photos in my port.  I don't know why I even bothered with this.  The degrading will continue, and as long as women allow themselves the comfort of money earned for it. . .it will remain socially PC.  Just like animal testing.

shimmer wrote:
But both images seek to elicit a certain response.
The first picture is more along the lines of a Target catalogue showing their new line (excepting the hand at the breast thing), the second is not.

What is the intention with your pictures? To show that you have underwear and breasts? Or is there a commercial intention there that I'm uninformed and am missing?

*yawn*

Jayne Jones wrote:

*yawn*

so....basically you don't have an answer? Ok. *shrug*

Jayne Jones wrote:
*yawn*

shimmer wrote:
so....basically you don't have an answer? Ok. *shrug*

That was my answer.  I really don't like repeating myself.  My having a sexy picture does not automatically mean I am selling sex, just like merely being nude does not make a picture sexy.  If you just don't get that, you don't get it.  No amount of me restating the same thing over and over isn't going to help you get it.

Anyone with eyes can see that the pics in my port are nowhere near anything that has ever been published (nor will it ever be) in Maxim, Men's Weekly, SI Swim, King or any publication like it.  I'm fine with that.  If you feel that makes me a hypocrite. . .that's your opinion and you are most certainly entitled to have it.

Jayne Jones wrote:

Jayne Jones wrote:
*yawn*

That was my answer.  I really don't like repeating myself.

That's not an answer. That's an aversion.

That's you saying (without words) that you can't defend your position, so you're not going to try.

And that's fine.

But don't be a hypocrit about other women "selling out" when by your own description you've done the exact same thing.

Again, I'm not attacking you but I find it hard to sit and hear you say one thing and do another.

shimmer wrote:
That's not an answer. That's an aversion.

That's you saying (without words) that you can't defend your position, so you're not going to try.

And that's fine.

But don't be a hypocrit about other women "selling out" when by your own description you've done the exact same thing.

Again, I'm not attacking you but I find it hard to sit and hear you say one thing and do another.

Like I said. . .you are more than welcome to your opinion.  But I have yet to do a Maxim-like ad and I never will.  No amount of money offered to me will change my mind on that.  So by my own definition. . .I have yet to sell out.  Thanks sweetie.

Jayne Jones wrote:
Like I said. . .you are more than welcome to your opinion.  But I have yet to do a Maxim-like ad and I never will.

I didn't say you had or you had to...and more power to you for not wanting to...

ETA: nice edit.

CristinaLex wrote:
I mean saying Jayne's images is selling sex is like saying every nude model is a whore (which we all know is not true)....she is basically saying that just because she takes a sexy pic doesnt mean it selling sex....when you bf wants to take a sexy image of you on his camera...ur not selling him a sexy image...he has it for his own...Jayne is not selling a sexy image she is just portrying one...

Just because your a model and you take sexy pics doesnt mean that you have that intention to sell it...

exactly!...its called perception. so the same way some people may view Jayne's photos as "lacking integrity" but she doesnt, is the same exact way Toccarra saw her pictures. Who is to say who has more integrity? Toccarra's intentions arent known (to us at least) so how are we to assess what her reasons were.

and as a christian myself, aren't we suppose to leave the judging  to the man upstairs...just a thought

xJenellex wrote:
exactly!...its called perception. so the same way some people may view Jayne's photos as "lacking integrity" but she doesnt, is the same exact way Toccarra saw her pictures. Who is to say who has more integrity? Toccarra's intentions arent known (to us at least) so how are we to assess what her reasons were.

and as a christian myself, aren't we suppose to leave the judging  to the man upstairs...just a thought

Who's judging?

If you're referencing me, I wasn't judging. I was pointing out that those in glass houses shouldn't cast stones.

xJenellex wrote:
when one questions someone's integrity and then labels them a sellout on your assessment, what exactly is one doing???

when one calls someone else down on a behaviour and exhibits said behaviour one's ownself, what is one doing?

I'm not questioning her integrity. I'm telling her she sounds hypocritical.


and I'm glad I read your edit because I misread that you were agreeing with me. My apologies.

xJenellex wrote:
shimmer- i was agreeing with you when i posted ( look at edit) never referenced you judging anyone

Yeah I got that a day late and a dollar short. My apologies.


*damn slow site*

Jayne Jones wrote:
Tocarra, to me, is just another example of a model that so desperately wants to "make it" that she will succumb to just about anything.  How's that saying go. . .Stand for nothing and you'll fall for anything.  Yes, she's getting exposure.  Yes, she's getting a lot more work than I am and a lot of professional models that I've encountered.  But is all work "good work" (like all money isn't good money).

Let me put it from an industry POV...

As celebrated Tocarra is in the black and in the overweight community... with all the cries and cheers that she is making it... and using her as an evidence that others don't need to have the industry standards etc. to do runway, be beautiful and accepted the way someone is...

It was a hype... and no matter how much many gals hope that the "underdog" shows it to "The Man"... aka fashion industry...

You don't change the industry... her short fame, stemming from ANTM exposure just had to fade when the reality kicks in... AFTER the reality show is over.

No offense meant...

But... what happened to Tocarra is simply evidence how well models who don't fit the mold will do in the long (short) run...

Cristal Steverson wrote:
I am almost scared to post in this discussion.  Im a sellout because I did a reality show and I am without morals because I am sexy... most of the time.  I get blasted for doing music videos because thats what everyone sees, but if you do a little research, I am a spokesmodel for HIV/ADIS and I speak at high schools about the importance of an education.  I tithe with my bad money that I earn posing in more that Adam and Eve wore before they became ignorant... but hey it works for me... make sure you check out my terrible, moral-less spread in SOURCE magazine April. Buy it, take it home, and say horrible things about me.  Did I mention that NO ONES takes advantage or portrays me as anything... that will all be me.  LOL... I love MM

:beer:

Cristal Steverson wrote:
Jayne I also have a question.
On your page it says you will do implied nude.
So if King magazine called you tommorrow with an offer for a implied nude spread would you not do it?

No I would not.  Just like I would never do an interview for Playboy.

Jayne Jones wrote:

Like I said. . .you are more than welcome to your opinion.  But I have yet to do a Maxim-like ad and I never will.  No amount of money offered to me will change my mind on that.  So by my own definition. . .I have yet to sell out.  Thanks sweetie.

I say bullshit!  If you were (which trust me, maxim will never approach you!) offered pay for a picture that implied nudity and was as you call "PC" you would take the money, that is of course unless you have a tree in your backyard that you can shake and money falls from it and a drug dealer didn't plant it!  Also, I said to you before to think carefully about what you say...you try again to say that I would in someway harm my child (who is grown by the way!) we will have a problem, you can't make blanket statements and then get defensive when someone puts your ass in check, or challenges you on the words YOU put in black an white!  Young woman you have a lot to learn...

CristinaLex wrote:
the only thing i dont like about king magazine is how they ask women who model for them the dumbest most ignorant questions.....I know they trying to get to know the model "sexually" i guess....But what about her personality, who she admires...what she planning to do with her modelling career...

They always ask..."what position you like"
How do you please your man
What are your bedroom tricks...but when they get a rapper or some artist in their mag they ask them those type or "future career goal " questions...Shouldnt her pic say enough about her sexual appeal?.....thats just what 'i think

C'mon... Cristina...

Do I, a cracker, have to explain this to you?

I am sure you know the answer already...

But... here it comes... well... to be on topic... it should be:

Here it CUM's...:

King, BMM etc... are booty magazines!

The target audience are horny men, who like music and booties... YOUR job is to be sexy and be the dream of exactly those horny men.

When they talk about the rapper,... career goals are cool..., future CD's... cool... sponsoring young up and coming artists... cool.

YOU, the babe... you talk about how much you like to get "screwed" by a big black African prince and his huge spear...

If you want to talk about your career as a black woman... you keep your booty in a business suit, call Essence, Black Enterprise or Black Woman Today... and then you tell them.

It's about selling the magazines to their respective target audience.

Or, you be part of an editorial in Black Woman Today and do a "tell all" story... "My life as a booty girl"... LOL...

Jayne Jones wrote:
Like I said. . .you are more than welcome to your opinion.  But I have yet to do a Maxim-like ad and I never will.  No amount of money offered to me will change my mind on that.  So by my own definition. . .I have yet to sell out.  Thanks sweetie.

Sxy6ftr wrote:
I say bullshit!  If you were (which trust me, maxim will never approach you!) offered pay for a picture that implied nudity and was as you call "PC" you would take the money, that is of course unless you have a tree in your backyard that you can shake and money falls from it and a drug dealer didn't plant it!  Also, I said to you before to think carefully about what you say...you try again to say that I would in someway harm my child (who is grown by the way!) we will have a problem, you can't make blanket statements and then get defensive when someone puts your ass in check, or challenges you on the words YOU put in black an white!  Young woman you have a lot to learn...

I thought you said you were done with this topic.  Hmmm.

But actually, I wouldn't.  I have drawn a line in the sand and I will never cross it.  My morality is not for sale, and my mind cannot be changed merely for a "quick buck."  I work hard for what I need/want.  I think those that are looking for easy ways out will compromise themselves and do whatever it takes.  That's not me.  I don't need trashy cash.  Thank GOD they would never approach me to begin with.  If you feel that you can live with the ramifications of doing such work. . .more power to you.  I have a standard for myself and I'm not wavering from that.

UdoR wrote:

C'mon... Cristina...

Do I, a cracker, have to explain this to you?

I am sure you know the answer already...

But... here it comes... well... to be on topic... it should be:

Here it CUM's...:

King, BMM etc... are booty magazines!

The target audience are horny men, who like music and booties... YOUR job is to be sexy and be the dream of exactly those horny men.

When they talk about the rapper,... career goals are cool..., future CD's... cool... sponsoring young up and coming artists... cool.

YOU, the babe... you talk about how much you like to get "screwed" by a big black African prince and his huge spear...

If you want to talk about your career as a black woman... you keep your booty in a business suit, call Essence, Black Enterprise or Black Woman Today... and then you tell them.

It's about selling the magazines to their respective target audience.

Or, you be part of an editorial in Black Woman Today and do a "tell all" story... "My life as a booty girl"... LOL...

what a great response- gave me a good laugh at work

Cristal Steverson wrote:
I am almost scared to post in this discussion.  Im a sellout because I did a reality show and I am without morals because I am sexy... most of the time.  I get blasted for doing music videos because thats what everyone sees, but if you do a little research, I am a spokesmodel for HIV/ADIS and I speak at high schools about the importance of an education.  I tithe with my bad money that I earn posing in more that Adam and Eve wore before they became ignorant... but hey it works for me... make sure you check out my terrible, moral-less spread in SOURCE magazine April. Buy it, take it home, and say horrible things about me.  Did I mention that NO ONES takes advantage or portrays me as anything... that will all be me.  LOL... I love MM

Your such a sellout with your sexy ass self!!!! (smile)

UdoR wrote:

C'mon... Cristina...

Do I, a cracker, have to explain this to you?

I am sure you know the answer already...

But... here it comes... well... to be on topic... it should be:

Here it CUM's...:

King, BMM etc... are booty magazines!

The target audience are horny men, who like music and booties... YOUR job is to be sexy and be the dream of exactly those horny men.

When they talk about the rapper,... career goals are cool..., future CD's... cool... sponsoring young up and coming artists... cool.

YOU, the babe... you talk about how much you like to get "screwed" by a big black African prince and his huge spear...

If you want to talk about your career as a black woman... you keep your booty in a business suit, call Essence, Black Enterprise or Black Woman Today... and then you tell them.

It's about selling the magazines to their respective target audience.

Or, you be part of an editorial in Black Woman Today and do a "tell all" story... "My life as a booty girl"... LOL...

Ya know you just inspired me to maybe turn around thiis whole game...I dont wanna be known as just some booty girl..the only thing i have committed to myself is not to do videos...not knocking n e one who dooes...this is just my preference..I wouldnt mind doing layouts for magazines...selective ones'and not just the ones that are street cred mags just to get exposure...dont wanna really get into that....but at the same time i will strive to be a fashion icon to let women of my shape or bigger that it is perfectly fine to be sexy....thats why i love toccarra for being in king..the pics were scrumptious...not showing ass.not bending over on a table...no legs spread wide...very sexy...and she AINT SMALL...which is what i love about her..shes my Idol

Jayne Jones wrote:

Jose- JoseOnline wrote:
What is this ladies problem with sex?  If not for sex and sexual desire- our civilization would die out.

I'm just saying there is a difference between tastefully showing a little T&A and allowing yourself to be objectified because you have T&A.  Even here on MM, a lot of models get flack b/c their ports don't have enough T&A in them.  They're not deemed "hotties" because they don't show enough skin.  Notice though. . .those comments are all directed at women. 

Why are women regarded as objects, and why do women allow this degradation merely because they are being financially compensated???  I don't understand why this doesn't make sense.  Perhaps if I wasn't so well endowed with T&A someone would take me more seriously??  Perhaps if I took the two "sexy" pictures I have out of my port???  *ponders*

maybe people are getting flack from the black photogs and "managers" because they are still running those lines of it sells, but everybody who really makes money in the world knows urban modeling dont pay. i've seen some babes who could make a shitload of bread from advertising basically go another route mainly because of what some young dumb internet dude tells her, and she thinks (for some idiotic reason) that being popular on the urban message boards is going to make her "hot" enough to make alot of money, which i wont even lol on, i'll do it out of my own mouth.

but T&A is looked at in 2 ways. sport/swimsuit modeling is an entirely different avenue, its an up-tempo look, its stylish, its spunky, sporty, all of that stuff. but when you have babes taking flicks and they dont even know what type of style or direction they have (alot of them say "they want to be the hottest model" - hahahaha) so they pigeon themselves into what message boards want them to do, which is more than a joke, its a crime for being that idiotic, lol.

thats why you see some of the babes on MM toss their little ass pics as their main pic, you see them saying theyre gonna blow up or even better - claim they want to do commercial & fashion, and then about 6 months after their paysite isnt generating the gross earnings they expected, they are still rocking the same pics in their port, and they are basically introducing themselves again to the world, they want to know why nobody is paying them any mind, lol. its all about your presentation and your knowledge of the field youre in. if you dont have any research, you can become one of the many of what i just mentioned. theyre all over MM, and its downright depressing, but thats why research couldve put the bug in their ear that urban dont pay.

UdoR wrote:
As celebrated Tocarra is in the black and in the overweight community... with all the cries and cheers that she is making it... and using her as an evidence that others don't need to have the industry standards etc. to do runway, be beautiful and accepted the way someone is...

It was a hype...

Uuuuuudoooooooo.....

I take no exception to your industry point of view.  I never claimed we'd see Tocarra doing runway.  Conflating that with the social issues I was talking about is just disingenuous on your part. 

Whether or not Tocarra ever walks a runway (and whether ANTM put her in there just for ratings [that's why they put everyone in there!]) doesn't have much to do with whether or not she's an example to other people of size that is positive and empowering. 

Now, I know you don't like fat people Udo, but really.  The business reasons for having her on ANTM are unrelated to the effect she is having as a force in her own right.  Whether or not she remains a celebrity in the future, she is having an effect now.  She is getting people thinking and talking about issues now.  She is inspiring girls now.  (Anyway, it’s a little bit funny that you would talk about short term careers disparagingly, when most fashion models are considered old and unusable by…what is it?  24?)  Contrary to what you claim in your quote above, she is evidence that you don't need to fit fashion industry standards to be beautiful and accepted.  (In a social context, which is what I was talking about all along.)

Why?  Because she IS!

You may not like that or think it should be so, but as my papa likes to say, with a smile and a wink to show that he's being scrappy but doing so with good humor...

Tough noogies!