Tony Lawrence wrote:
but many lack that special spark and that in my view is what separates average models from great models.

so true...  it's the same for all creative outlets... passion is needed... it is the drive and key...

Justin wrote:

Yes, but as you look through photos, don't many of the shots look much the same?  The photographer apparently calling for the same pose? The same thought of a prop forced into the scene? Same angles? Same lighting?

Any given group has its own level. Someone can be a terrific high school athlete yet not be competitive in college. Or be competitive in college but not have a chance in the pros.

The comparison holds true with modeling and photography. Most of the models, most of the photographers, on this site are above what you would get as opposed to someone off the street with a camera. But within this higher level, there is a level of "average," too. A model can be beautiful but vanilla - a photographer's work can be technically great but vanilla.

It's the level that transcends "average," sometimes by a little, sometimes by a lot, that make it all worthwhile for those people who like to see the good stuff emerge. Sure, some models have no passion. Neither do some photographers. It's all part of the spectrum of the human experience. The outstanding will stand out.

Justin you make a great point.  There are levels here as well as styles that photographers shoot in.  I for example tend to shoot a certain way. Take a look at my work.  Sometimes within that style I produce good stuff.  Sadly I think its
mostly average.  However a model must emote.  Its part of the energy she projects.  I go back to my Betty Page, remark.  She's attractive but so many models that were shooting cheese cake glamour were.  Yet she bought something they didn't.  It was a range of looks and a freedom.  You also touched on a intresting problem.  There is a well known photographer here.  While his work is clear, well focused and colorfull produces the same tired crap.  He is always posting and asking for comments.  What can we say, its just like the other hundred images you shot, good job.  Is he someone a model who also has passion should work with?  Certainly he will give you a decent product but thats it. Its just a picture no life to it.  I'd rather look at paint drying.  I believe passion for what
you are doing shows in your work even if it isn't always great.  For a model its
giving fully of herself being comfortable in front of the camera  for a photographer being able to capture those moments.

Sita Mae Edwards wrote:

Exactly.  Go team effort.

lol yes, and let's get everyone in there..MUA.stylists.wardrobe specialists, everyone

Tony Lawrence wrote:
So many of the models here have beautifull faces and figures they often
have cool creative shots with great outfits but somethings missing...
They all look the same.  Its the same look or expression, shot after shot
after shot.  There is often no passion in their eyes.  I remember seeing
the movie; Anton Fisher.  The main character goes to meet his birth mother who had abandoned him.  She had a history of mental problems and I believe drug abuse.  This actor without saying a word gives a fantastic performance with just her facial expressions.  This is to me whats often lacking in model ports.  This in no way is a knock at models as I stated at the start, all of you are beautifull but many lack that special spark and that in my view is what separates average models from great models.

that is one of my major pet peeves.
the girls always look bred too-making the pictures boring.
it's almost like the photographer dressed up a corpse and took pictures.
what do we need to do to them-electric shock?

Bob Randall Photography wrote:
I call it the "On The Pole" look or the "Deer In The Headlights" look. Many of the on-line talent people have this problem. It's one of the reasons I always ask if a potential talent has any acting experience.

This is a great example of what I'm talking about.  A great photographers capturing
the essence of his models.  Remember some Native Americians not wanting to
be photographed because they felt a photo captured the soul?  Looking at
many of the model ports and photographer ports I'd say they have nothing to worry about.  Before anyone can bash me , I don't have the ablity to pull that
special something out myself so I count on models too.  Selfish? Yep you bet.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
So many of the models here have beautifull faces and figures they often
have cool creative shots with great outfits but somethings missing...
They all look the same.  Its the same look or expression, shot after shot
after shot.  There is often no passion in their eyes.  I remember seeing
the movie; Anton Fisher.  The main character goes to meet his birth mother who had abandoned him.  She had a history of mental problems and I believe drug abuse.  This actor without saying a word gives a fantastic performance with just her facial expressions.  This is to me whats often lacking in model ports.  This in no way is a knock at models as I stated at the start, all of you are beautifull but many lack that special spark and that in my view is what separates average models from great models.

Revenge of the One-Look Wonders, eh?  I could not agree more...

I feel so stongly about this issue.  I don't think it's the photographers obligation to bring something out of the model.  Sure you have to be a director, but projecting the mood is the model's job!  I can let you know what the emotion needs to be but it's the model's responsibility to translate it to the viewer. 

Think about it this way: as a photographer one has to create and find ways of feeding that creativity.  You learn what works.  You give your creativity fuel.  Even if you've never met a model before, you still have to be creative with him or her.  "You didn't inspire me to be creative" just won't cut it.  You have to do it when necessary.

For the model, he or she has to project the emotion necessary.  If the shot calls for extreme sadness then that needs to be projected even if you don't feel like crying.  If it calls for elation, project that even if you aren't particularly happy.  If it's smouldering desire, exude that even if you aren't feeling sexy.  I might ask for 5 radically different emotions in the span of 5 frames.  You have to be able to turn it on and off. 

My hat's off to the models who understand and can do that.  It's not blaming or anything, just stating how I view it.  I'm always amazed when people will say "So&so is an incredible model!" when that person really only has one look.  That may be an accident of genetics, but I wouldn't call it modeling. Conveying an emotion is the job.  It's not the job to simply sit there and look "cute."  Sitting there looking cute doesn't make one any more a model than pushing the shutter button makes one a photographer than bringing some clothes makes one a fashion stylist than applying lipstick makes one a make-up artist...

Jay Bowman wrote:

Revenge of the One-Look Wonders, eh?  I could not agree more...

I feel so stongly about this issue.  I don't think it's the photographers obligation to bring something out of the model.  Sure you have to be a director, but projecting the mood is the model's job!  I can let you know what the emotion needs to be but it's the model's responsibility to translate it to the viewer. 

Think about it this way: as a photographer one has to create and find ways of feeding that creativity.  You learn what works.  You give your creativity fuel.  Even if you've never met a model before, you still have to be creative with him or her.  "You didn't inspire me to be creative" just won't cut it.  You have to do it when necessary.

For the model, he or she has to project the emotion necessary.  If the shot calls for extreme sadness then that needs to be projected even if you don't feel like crying.  If it calls for elation, project that even if you aren't particularly happy.  If it's smouldering desire, exude that even if you aren't feeling sexy.  I might ask for 5 radically different emotions in the span of 5 frames.  You have to be able to turn it on and off. 

My hat's off to the models who understand and can do that.  It's not blaming or anything, just stating how I view it.  I'm always amazed when people will say "So&so is an incredible model!" when that person really only has one look.  That may be an accident of genetics, but I wouldn't call it modeling. Conveying an emotion is job.  It's not the job to simply sit there and look "cute."  Sitting there looking cute doesn't make one any more a model than pushing the shutter button makes one a photographer than bringing some clothes makes one a fashion stylist than applying lipstick makes one a make-up artist...

I'm getting tired of people stating my point better then me.  Just kidding, well said.
Being pretty is a gift just like having a natural eye for a shot.  Yet if thats all a model has.  No emotion behind those eyes, no passion, I'll even take anger but
nothing isn't a reponse.  Someone here mentioned Grace Jones.  Was she lets
say pretty?  Not to me but I'd take her over 75% of the models on this site.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
So many of the models here have beautifull faces and figures they often
have cool creative shots with great outfits but somethings missing...
They all look the same.  Its the same look or expression, shot after shot
after shot.  There is often no passion in their eyes.  I remember seeing
the movie; Anton Fisher.  The main character goes to meet his birth mother who had abandoned him.  She had a history of mental problems and I believe drug abuse.  This actor without saying a word gives a fantastic performance with just her facial expressions.  This is to me whats often lacking in model ports.  This in no way is a knock at models as I stated at the start, all of you are beautifull but many lack that special spark and that in my view is what separates average models from great models.

Great thread Tony.  As usual! 

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Someone here mentioned Grace Jones.  Was she lets
say pretty?  Not to me but I'd take her over 75% of the models on this site.

She's an excellent example! 

I see people here asking others "Am I pretty enough to model?"  If you think it's all about being pretty, you're missing the point.  There are plenty of people who aren't traditionally pretty who help create captivating photographs.  Even commercial models with their "generic good looks" have to translate some kind of mood or idea.  The loving mother.  The knowledgeable doctor.  The excited teen.  There's just so much more to modeling than giving the "I'm too sexy for my shorts" look.  Every situation won't call for that.

And as for Grace Jones, I'd shoot her in a heartbeat...

Marley Decadence wrote:
i definately practice in the mirror and even when friends are taking pictures of me for fun,  i definately want my personality to shine through.. i hope it does!

KARLOS MATTHEWS wrote:
I got a mirror in my pocket and I practice lookin' hard

Mirror, mirror make the call

Who's the hardest of them all
   
            --------- E-40


I just had to add that

What ever happened to E-feezy anyway???

leiah wrote:
If any models have the same problem as me, I would love to hear how you've gotten over it

Here's an excercise that a photographer suggested to me once:

Get in front of the mirror, take out your cell phone and put it to your ear.  Imagine that you're talking to mommy and you haven't heard from her in a while.  Then pretend that your best friend called with the latest, juiciest gossip.  Now pretend you're calling in sick to work, but you aren't really sick.  Now your boyfriend just called and he's telling you something really dirty (but you like it).  Switch gears and pretend that he's calling you but this time to say that he's cancelling night with you.  Or your brother calls to say that your pooch fluffy got hit by a car.  Then imagine that your pizza delivery is an hour late and you have the whole clan over and everyone's hungry...

I could go on forever with different scenarios.  The point is that the viewer should see that same setup (you on your cell phone) and know exactly who you're talking to based on your expression each time.

If you practice that and can pull off half of those looks, you'll be further ahead than most people here...

Jay Bowman wrote:

She's an excellent example! 

I see people here asking others "Am I pretty enough to model?"  If you think it's all about being pretty, you're missing the point.  There are plenty of people who aren't traditionally pretty who help create captivating photographs.  Even commercial models with their "generic good looks" have to translate some kind of mood or idea.  The loving mother.  The knowledgeable doctor.  The excited teen.  There's just so much more to modeling than giving the "I'm too sexy for my shorts" look.  Every situation won't call for that.

And as for Grace Jones, I'd shoot her in a heartbeat...

Take a look at Jayne, she seems to convey emotion.  You're right models are
always asking if they have a look thats marketable.  Yes there pretty.  Yes they
look great in lingerie or in that mini skirt.  Yes men are panting after you but you
have all the passion of a deer.  Grace Jones wasn't afraid to look silly or that part
of her boobs might be seen.  She gave herself fully to the shoot.  Holding nothing back.  I go back to my post about the model in the short skirt.  If you worry about
what some guy happens to see when you bend over then make sure your undies
are clean but pose damm it.  Place yourself into the moment fully.

Jay Bowman wrote:
Here's an excercise that a photographer suggested to me once:

Get in front of the mirror, take out your cell phone and put it to your ear.  Imagine that you're talking to mommy and you haven't heard from her in a while.  Then pretend that your best friend called with the latest, juiciest gossip.  Now pretend you're calling in sick to work, but you aren't really sick.  Now your boyfriend just called and he's telling you something really dirty (but you like it).  Switch gears and pretend that he's calling you but this time to say that he's cancelling night with you.  Or your brother calls to say that your pooch fluffy got hit by a car.  Then imagine that your pizza delivery is an hour late and you have the whole clan over and everyone's hungry...

I could go on forever with different scenarios.  The point is that the viewer should see that same setup (you on your cell phone) and know exactly who you're talking to based on your expression each time.

If you practice that and can pull off half of those looks, you'll be further ahead than most people here...

i like that. im going to practice with that!

Jay Bowman wrote:

Here's an excercise that a photographer suggested to me once:

Get in front of the mirror, take out your cell phone and put it to your ear.  Imagine that you're talking to mommy and you haven't heard from her in a while.  Then pretend that your best friend called with the latest, juiciest gossip.  Now pretend you're calling in sick to work, but you aren't really sick.  Now your boyfriend just called and he's telling you something really dirty (but you like it).  Switch gears and pretend that he's calling you but this time to say that he's cancelling night with you.  Or your brother calls to say that your pooch fluffy got hit by a car.  Then imagine that your pizza delivery is an hour late and you have the whole clan over and everyone's hungry...

I could go on forever with different scenarios.  The point is that the viewer should see that same setup (you on your cell phone) and know exactly who you're talking to based on your expression each time.

If you practice that and can pull off half of those looks, you'll be further ahead than most people here...

Good advice...I think that will really help me. Thanks!!!

kate f wrote:
i like that. im going to practice with that!

Phoebe I wrote:
Good advice...I think that will really help me. Thanks!!!

I'm glad you both find it helpful.

Another thing that may help is asking the photographer what the mood will be before hand (as in days before the shoot) and practice the different variations on that one particular emotion.  Don't settle for "Okay, this is my sexy look" because the sexy look you give to a guy you're flirting with but don't know is different than the sexy you show your significant other which is different still than the sexy you show if you know you're going to be around an ex who dumped you and radically different from the confident sexiness you'd give off wearing a business suit in a corporate environment.

Much like the varying degrees of sadness between a break up, getting turned down for law school, a death in the family, getting laid off, and wrecking your parents car that you weren't supposed to drive.

You get the point, I'm sure.  I have a million of them, so let me stop; I could go on with this for days...

leiah wrote:
I know that I have that problem and i've been working on it- trying to do faces in the mirror and taking little webcam photos to see how it looks.  It's just as frustrating for me as it is for photographers.  I really want great pictures, but it's really hard for me to do.  I'm not at all an actress and people are always asking me why I look mad.  I have like a permanent expression on my face.
I have some shoots coming up that hopefully I will do better in. 

If any models have the same problem as me, I would love to hear how you've gotten over it

I'm kinda like that myself...not at all an actress either. I will also try the face in the mirror exercises...

MelissaBaker wrote:
It helps when you feel at ease with the photographer, then you can just concentrate on the shot

I agree with this but only in a trade scenario. If someone is paying you, performance is required inspite of circumstance.

Michael Sloane wrote:
I agree with this but only in a trade scenario. If someone is paying you, performance is required inspite of circumstance.

Exactly...

VirtuaMike wrote:
You can't put all the blame on a model. It's a photographers job to work and pull that look out.

Agree.  The photographer is responsible for the photographs.  No one else. 

-Don

D. Brian Nelson wrote:

Agree.  The photographer is responsible for the photographs.  No one else. 

-Don

We can control lighting, exposure, placement and color but there are reasons some
models are prefered over others and it isn't just because they have great faces
and figures.  They bring a certain something.  Maybe its a fun and magnetic personality. That shines through the image.  As a photographer we are responsible for the final images I would agree but would you put a Grace Jones, Tyra, Naomi
or Cindy Crawford in at the same level as many of the models here?  Yes,
these women are pretty, yes they have fantastic figures but most don't exude anything.   I recall a model I shot recently.  She was attractive but so stiff and
aware of herself that I cut the shoot short.  I look at her profile from time to time
and she's not improving.   She still has no expression and looks lifeless.  As a photographer we try and bring something out in our subjects.  Sometimes we have
a connection and things go well sometimes not.  However a model MUST connect to the camera.  She must be fearless and have passion without it we see what most have here, pretty pictures that are totally for forgetable.

D. Brian Nelson wrote:

Agree.  The photographer is responsible for the photographs.  No one else. 
-Don

Agree. Directing is an art unto itself. However, sometimes it's more a matter of creating an atmosphere wherein the model can release that which is within. IMHO.

lindsaylee wrote:
What models do you see consistently wearing their hearts on their sleeves?

I try to give it all I've got.  I'd like to see some good examples of models who deliver.

Anyone?

Variety is the spice of life:

https://www.modelmayhem.com/member.php?id=598 Naomi Jay

https://modelmayhem.com/member.php?id=93624 JodyB


Just a couple for now...

Philip of Dallas wrote:
Agree. Directing is an art unto itself. However, sometimes it's more a matter of creating an atmosphere wherein the model can release that which is within. IMHO.

Well, put.  While it's true that the photographer is responsible in the end, everyone has a role to play, and the model's is more than just showing up alive and coherent (relatively).  I like the way you stated it as creating an atmosphere so the model can release because it doesn't carry this notion of the model passively being acted upon.  He/She should be able to bring it out of him/herself to a significant degree, in my opinion. 

On any team, how much do you weigh the coach's ability to motivate against the team's ability to play?  There's not enough motivation in the world to push a player to perform at a level beyond his or her ability.  The player has to work up to that level of performance before motivation (internal or external) can unlock it...

lindsaylee wrote:
What models do you see consistently wearing their hearts on their sleeves?

I try to give it all I've got.  I'd like to see some good examples of models who deliver.

Anyone?

Yep, you're on my list of art models who bring it.  Envy (25477), Lapis (3290), and Phoenix E (48729) do as well.

Shyly wrote:

Yep, you're on my list of art models who bring it.  Envy (25477), Lapis (3290), and Phoenix E (48729) do as well.

shyly-

you are incredible.

you're on my top ten people to meet.

lindsay lee

My two pennies...
The Zoolanders...they get a great shot it becomes the best pic they ever took so they feel they have to look that way in every other photo.  It's like teaching someone to fire a weapon.  If they have ever shot a weapon in the past they already have an idea of what it takes, so new direction isn't well received or fully retained.  If it is a new experience you are really excited and want to absorb everything new that is being taught...to tie the two together...if a "model" believes they have mastered the craft they become complacent and believe they can't be taught anything new... Ever see strippers giving a lap dance and talking with the girl at the next table at the same time...I believe that if you approach each shoot with a certain "newness" you will be excited and work toward making the shoot a great experience for all parties involved.  Sorry I gave you 3 cents!

Sxy6ftr wrote:
Revenge of the One-Look Wonders, eh?  I could not agree more...


My hat's off to the models who understand and can do that.  It's not blaming or anything, just stating how I view it.  I'm always amazed when people will say "So&so is an incredible model!" when that person really only has one look.  That may be an accident of genetics, but I wouldn't call it modeling. Conveying an emotion is the job.  It's not the job to simply sit there and look "cute."  Sitting there looking cute doesn't make one any more a model than pushing the shutter button makes one a photographer than bringing some clothes makes one a fashion stylist than applying lipstick makes one a make-up artist...

My two pennies...
The Zoolanders...they get a great shot it becomes the best pic they ever took so they feel they have to look that way in every other photo.  It's like teaching someone to fire a weapon.  If they have ever shot a weapon in the past they already have an idea of what it takes, so new direction isn't well received or fully retained.  If it is a new experience you are really excited and want to absorb everything new that is being taught...to tie the two together...if a "model" believes they have mastered the craft they become complacent and believe they can't be taught anything new... Ever see strippers giving a lap dance and talking with the girl at the next table at the same time...I believe that if you approach each shoot with a certain "newness" you will be excited and work toward making the shoot a great experience for all parties involved.  Sorry I gave you 3 cents!

I love the stripper tie in.  Like anything we do it can become stale and boring.
If you start dreading a shoot then its time to stop modeling.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Revenge of the One-Look Wonders, eh?  I could not agree more...


My hat's off to the llamas who understand and can do that.  It's not blaming or anything, just stating how I view it.  I'm always amazed when people will say "[i]So