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Flipside: Models Speak Up
Good day to all! I've asked photographers how much a photo shoot costs them. Primarily b/c there seemed to be an aweful lot of grumbling about model no shows. Considering the fact that there are photographer no shows as well. . . This will be tough for photographers to do, but put on your listening ears for this one. . .you've already had your say. This is for the models this time. Models: How much does a photo shoot cost YOU? I asked photographers this question: Jayne Jones wrote: So based on that, how much does it cost you as a model under the same circumstances? If you had to hire an MUA, do your own hair and bring your own clothes. . .how much would you be out?? Mar 17 06 08:16 am Link I just did a swimwear shoot for a swimwear company, they sent me the swimwear for free at their expense. The photographer was a friend of mine and she and I are getting credits in the catelouge so she will shoot with me for free. I use make up from my mary kay supplies( I used to be a dealer and have tons of samples!) The only thing that I paid for was gas and lunch so for the whole day I spent about 50 bucks. not too shaby. But my next shoot I think I will try to find a makeup artist that will do tfp the compensation= exposure.  Mar 17 06 08:40 am Link Hi there,Yes you always hear about the photographers complain about models.I drove 10 hrs to a shoot.and The photographer left after seeing my husband,He said he was to scary Looking.Instead of asking questions or anything he just left. Whats up with that. Mar 17 06 08:46 am Link Jayne: I understand the point you are trying to make, but your numbers don't work. I know some photographers photographers try to maximize the cost as well. Extensions: First, they may be $1,000 but they are not the cost of most shoots. You put them in once and they last a long time. You benefit from them for not just one shoot, but from many plus you have them in real life. Unless a photographer asked you to put them in, it was your choice. If he requested them and you weren't already putting them in, he should probably pay for them, but normally a photographer buys the look you have or has a stylist do something temporarily. I have a problem with you calling the $1,000 a normal cost of a single shoot. $350 for wardrobe. We don't spend $350 for a normal, paid client shot for wardrobe. The thing about wardrobe is that you may want it and it probably is a legitimate cost of being a model, but that $350 doesn't attribute to the single shoot. You continue to own the clothes and you can wear them for other projects. That is called amortizing the cost of the clothes over their use. So while a model is paying for wardrobe, clothes are not a throwaway. $1,000 for travel from SC to DC. I presume that you are staying at the Waldorf Astoria in a deluxe suite and flew first class with a rented Mercedes. I can buy a five day package to DC from L.A. with airfare and hotel for $650. You are an eight hour car ride away. If you choose to do a TFP in DC, then there is a cost for you to get there. It is your choice though. If you are doing a paid shoot, then your expenses should be covered. $150 for a Make-up artist (I presume that you are not suggesting that you spend that much for make-up for a single shoot). If you are actually hiring your own make-up artist and paying that amount, then I am fine with the cost. Do you actually hire a make-up artist for every shoot? This may sound like I am flaming you, acutally, I am not. I see your point. I read all these posts where photographers bash models or inflate their costs when talking about TFP. They try to make the relationship imbalanced so they can justify why models should be doing TFP with them. In any business, there are legitimate costs for both parties. I would actually like to see them explored. What you are suggesting isn't typical and no cost accountant would ever attribute them all to the shoot. We need to stop being adversaries and start looking at these things rationally on both sides. This was a great post because it will start a dialogue. I think both sides need to start looking at what it really costs so shoot. I don't believe that it normally costs $2,500 for a model to do a TFP, but ... I think if everyone realistically looked at all the costs of being a professional model, it would surprise some of you. But if your point is that photographers can be no-shows as well and that is a terrible annoyance to models, I agree with you completely. As the owner of rental studios, I find the most disturbing thing is when the photogapher rents my studio, books a model, she shows and he does not. I bothers me when he ducks his booking with me, but all I lost is a potential renter. For the model, she made all the preparations and was left at the alter. So while I think your numbers are a bit inflated, I understand your point completely. What was done was wrong and it did come out of your pocket. I have bought models plane tickets before only to have them stand me up. Mar 17 06 08:49 am Link that does suck. Tha is why when I say I am bringing my escort who is my fiancee that I have references from photographers we have worked with that like he was there and it works for me. plus I dont have any female friends that could go with me to shoots. they all have busy schedules. Mar 17 06 08:50 am Link ooohhh here is another one, photgraphers that complain about your posing saying it sucks and then tell you you are hairy and asked if you have shaved in the past three days, when you shaved that morning. or the problemsom pimples or bloating and you can only fit in the "fat pants" cause nothing else fits and you are cramping too much to care about it. Mar 17 06 08:53 am Link If a model has a no-show with a photographer, I must say they couldn't have been a professional. I think for any professional photographer, doing something like that to a model would be unthinkable. But it's also never been a problem with me with models. I've had two no-shows in 15 years. One called well in advance to say he'd found another photographer...and the other had car-trouble and was stranded in BFE. Is this really a problem? brian Mar 17 06 08:56 am Link Alan from Aavian Prod wrote: Well said. Mar 17 06 08:58 am Link I personally only do shoots that are close to me. Meaning 2 hour car rides. I do my own hair and my own make-up. If I have to provide my own clothing I see what I already have and use that. If I need to get something I look for great idea clothing. That means it will take great pictures but won't cost me a fortune. I'm a broke, college student, I don't have money to just throw around. So I try to only pay for gas in the car. Which can cost up to 40 bucks. I love nearly all the pictures I get from a shoot. I guess it goes to show that you don't need to spend alot to get alot. Mar 17 06 09:11 am Link Alan: Let me see if I can clear the mud a little. Alan from Aavian Prod wrote: Actually no. I do not have extensions now. I donât plan on getting them until this shoot. The shoot is my idea, so I canât very well expect someone else to pay for the look Iâm âcreating.â? Now, if I choose to keep the extensions in after the shoot. . .thatâs one thing. I probably will, but that still does not change the fact that they are being bought specifically for this shoot. I say that b/c I donât have them now. In the event I choose to take them out, I will have to pay to have them put back in. Considering the cost of their upkeep. . .I will really have to struggle with that one. I like the idea of having variety, so I may or may not keep them. Either way. . .donât have them now and thatâs the look that is âwantedâ?. Just because it is me what difference does it make? Technically since I am the one putting the shoot together. . .Iâm the client. Alan from Aavian Prod wrote: Personally, I donât think it would bode well for me as a model to re-use ensembles from shoot to shoot. In my port, that would look like I have only had one shoot. Itâs called variety Alan. You know this. Sure the clothes âcouldâ? be used again. In reality will they be. . .probably not. Alan from Aavian Prod wrote: I live in Kansas City. Have you checked prices for hotels in the DC area? They start at $100/night and thatâs at Best Western/Motel 6. Why??? Because itâs DC. Multiply that times three b/c I have to find a location. Iâm not from there after all. Round trip plane ticket is $400. Rental car unlimited miles for two days on the weekend is close to $400. And Iâm getting a discount. Alan from Aavian Prod wrote: Yes, b/c believe it or not. . .I donât wear makeup every day. Unless you want to count lip gloss. So, yes I hire a MUA every shoot. Her name is Rachel. However, for DC I want a specific MUA. I saw her port and I want her talent. I have to pay her for it. Thatâs business. Alan from Aavian Prod wrote: Alan. . .sweetie. . .honeybunny. . .I never take your feedback as flaming. Youâre a professional. Mar 17 06 09:14 am Link I have never asked the MUA how much the makeup costs! I have never asked the stylist how much her stuff costs! I have never asked the location owner how much his property costs! I dont want to know how much your clothes cost! W H Y ? Mar 17 06 09:18 am Link UnoMundo Photography wrote: That's nice to know. However I posted this b/c I wanted the models to lend their prerspective on the issue. Mar 17 06 09:21 am Link I'm getting a lot of posts from photographers. I totally understand that this is the internet and people do what they want, but can't people at least read the OP????? I did put a little thought into it you know. Mar 17 06 09:22 am Link Jayne Jones wrote: Cost to me as a photographer for a NO SHOW or Last Minute Cancellation?? When I schedule a TFP or paid by client shoot, the afore mentioned means I was not able to schedule a paid shoot during that particular time slot. Actual cash out of pocket expense may not be much, but LOST WAGES, as I operate my own studio, does count!! The person canceling may not think much about it, but look at with from the perspective of their own paid jobs. If your boss called you just before you were about to leave for your work and told you not to come in, I imagine you would be quite upset. And , Oh by the Way, your boss wont pay you since you are not coming in that day!! Mar 17 06 09:27 am Link Jayne Jones wrote: Damn Jayne, you must want this "modelling thing" real bad. I could seriously invest in a new camera with that kinda money. Mar 17 06 09:33 am Link Jayne Jones wrote: Tony Culture Photoz wrote: I don't believe in doing anything half assed Tony. That's all. If it costs me money, it costs me money. I save and plan and then DO it. Mar 17 06 09:35 am Link Split Images Studio wrote: I don't mean to make light of your example, but considering I have to drive 40 minutes one way through idiot traffic just to get there. I'd only be pissed off if my boss told me not to come in to work. . .after I got there. *LOL* But I get your point. It's two-fold though. Mar 17 06 09:37 am Link Taken from my other post regarding this subject: I have noticed that a lot of photographers feel like they get the short end of the stick by doing TFP work. I agree that in some cases, some models have way less investement into their craft than photographers do, however there are exceptions to this rule. I can say that I have just as much money invested into my equipment, clothing and makeup as any photographer. I'm a costumer/model. I have an expensive sewing machine, an expensive serger, fabrics, accessories, decorations and tools. Some of my costumes are worth over $1000. Some I bought off the shelf for $50. Some I've made and spent 50+ hours and hundreds of dollars making. I have a closet full of props, wigs and makeup - nice makeup, not walmart crap. I even have black light makeup. Don't forget that I also have photoshoot clothing that isn't really considered a costume but I wouldn't wear it in public that often. My average costume is worth about $400, usually more. We need to dry clean and take care of our outfits, store them, maintain them, maintain our equipment, repair costumes...just like any photographer does with his or her equipment. We must also continue to learn new things, take lessons, attend seminars and research for hours on the internet. I understand that photographers invest a lot of money into equipment but there are models like me who also invest a lot of money into their craft. In fact, we are constantly upgrading and creating new things, much like photographers upgrade their equipment, so it's not like a one time fee either. I don't always charge for my services but I can understand why a very good photographer would want to or would be select about TFP. At my level of mastery, money and time are not something I enjoy wasting at any rate. For those Pro's who despise TFP no matter what, note that based on the expenses of models like myself, we could easily charge someone the same thing a professional photographer charges. Good costume designers/models are not common and I feel that we offer something incredibly original that few others offer. There is such thing as a fair trade here. P.S. I've had people attempt to freeload off of me as well. Obnoxiousness is on both sides of the table. I feel for ya! Mar 17 06 09:39 am Link Jayne Jones wrote: This explains your high overhead, Jayne. I applaud your investment in your visions of yourself as a model. More power to you, babes ! Wish you all the best with it. Remember Tony Culture, when you become the next Oprah. Mar 17 06 09:44 am Link Jayne Jones wrote: If we put this in the context that this is a one of a kind shoot that you want to hypothetically do, then I understand your point, and as I said, it wasn't a flame. Mar 17 06 09:51 am Link Although everyone has a cost to bear. Photographers usually spend more. We may have to rent a studio. We have usually very expensive equipment and if a TFP have to edit and produce a cd-r for a model. You don't see lots of posts where models are complaning that photographers don't show for shoots. Why, because we are the ones that really want to shoot. I do understand models spending money on make-up and clothing but the clothing you can wear again and make-up but be replaced at some point. Photographers have a higer price point to work. Its hard to compete with someone who may have the same skills but is using higher res cameras for example. This for those shooting digital. Alan here for example pays models a decent amount to shoot. Can you imagine how he would feel if a model he paid to come to his studio just showed and decided not to shoot? He's still out his $$$$ Yes, that does happen to models but not all that often. This isn't meant to bash models in general but while you as a model may be serious and focused many are not. They waste our time and money. Mar 17 06 10:02 am Link Tony Lawrence wrote: I find it frustrating that so many flakes give models a bad name, just like perverted photographers give you a bad name. I've never been late or no show to a shoot but I've had perverts before. Mar 17 06 10:23 am Link Tony Lawrence wrote: Not to mention us poor suckers who work in film! Mar 17 06 10:51 am Link Ok I'll play Start up costs: - Braces or veneers, $7000 for the kind of braces you can take out before a photo shoot so youâre career isnât held up for the two years while youâre sporting braces - Cosmetic surgery - implants, lipo, nose job, etc I havenât had any of those but many do! $1000-20000 * - Eye surgery, if the model once wore glasses or contacts and needs to see without them for a shoot $6000 plus six months of healing (no thatâs not LASIK/LASEK, I think the going rate for that is $2000?) - Image consult $500 * - Model bag and things that go in it $250-1000 - Portfolio, not the photos themselves, but the book itself $50-200 - Permanent hair removal $4000 * - Wardrobe $1000 - Paying for portfolio images (more than one shoot) and/or scams (Iâm not say theyâre one in the same! But most models do get scammed at least once) $2500 - Hair styling tools (ionic hair blow dryer, curlers, flat iron, curling iron) $100-1500 - Photo printer $ - Laptop, wireless internet, photo editing software $ - Agency database / book Repeat costs (for each shoot, and/or every few weeks or months): - Professional teeth whitening $100-600 - Hair cut or dust the ends, $40-400 - Highlights, lowlights, dye or glaze, $100-400 - Deep condition and scalp treatments $20-50 - Facial, peels⦠$40-125 - Manicure and pedicure, $50 for just a plain manicure, French or fakes are extra - Waxing â underarms, bikini, legs, some may need arms and face - $250 - Professional eye brow shaping, versus the maintenance threading or waxing $50 - Sunless tan or tanning $10 - Airbrush tan $65 - Extensions $1500 * - Pens, clamps, tape, misc $ - Gas, parking, car or public transport $ - Attorney to review contracts and releases $ - Accountant to help with paperwork and taxes $ - Personal trainer $25-200 per hour - Nutritionist $ - Gym membership $25-200 a month - Wardrobe and accessories (yes, there is a start up wardrobe of basic items like special undergarments, shoes, etc and wardrobe that needs to be purchased for shoots) $ - Wigs * $ - Hair styling products, make up $ - Stylists (hair, make up, fashion) $ - Professional memberships / dues $ - Photo printer ink and paper $ - Comp / Zed cards Opportunity and other costs: - Regular full time day job so can be on call for model gigs, also usually means losing benefits - Taxes, models are self-employed and sometimes contractors - Giving up sports and activities that could cut, bruise, damage the nails, etc - Diet and exercise. To be slightly underweight and have athlete level body fat, there is a cost in both food and time spent at the gym * I havenât bought yet There are individuals who are not models that have some of these expenses. Prior to modeling I didnât go to the salon or even know what most of those services were and I didnât have a gym membership. Do I use these things for every shoot? If I'm wearing boots, then no one is seeing my pedicure, but not every camera, lens, brush, powder, gets used at every shoot either. I'm sure there are things that I'm leaving out but it's early on Saint Patrick's day  and the point is: everyone has expenses. It's either worth it to you to do a shoot "TFP" or it is not.Mar 17 06 10:51 am Link I don't really have a line by line, but I do spend hundreds of dollars each month on clothing, jewelry and makeup that I use in shoots. I am in the process of commissioning a $1300 dress for a shoot in LA in May. The only reason I can afford to do this stuff (at 5'2") is by having a well-paying, fulltime day job. Mar 17 06 11:05 am Link SithVixen wrote: I'm glad I'm not the only one who seems to adopt this foreign concept of not recycling clothes from shoot to shoot. Mar 17 06 11:13 am Link Sara Green wrote: And just think. . .these are for the shoots that Sara gets paid to do! Hmmmmmm. Me thinks this sounds familiar. Mar 17 06 11:17 am Link Josie Nutter wrote: I hear you on that Josie! I have two other jobs besides. Maybe one day *looking up to the sky* I'll actually be paid for the photos I take. One day. . .one day. . .one day. . . Mar 17 06 11:19 am Link Absolutely NOT a flame: SithVixen wrote: I'm not sure it's fair for you to be in this conversation. You aren't "a model", you are a one-person, full service production team. If even a respectably small percentage of models put as much on the table as you do, we wouldn't have this kind of discussion. Mar 17 06 11:27 am Link Jayne Jones wrote: I am a model on a budget Mar 17 06 11:41 am Link Tony Lawrence wrote: Well not really the wardrobe that I use in shoots are not the same as my everyday clothing. I wouldn't be caught outside wearing some of the stuff plus you cant use the same clothes for every shoot. I buy something use it only for that photo shoot and then I have to buy something totally diferent for the next photo shoot. I wouldn't want all my photos with the same outfits on them.Plus make up artist and hair stylist they dont come cheap either and you have to pay for them on every shoot. If you want your pictures to look flawless. If you dont care how look on the pictures and want some cheap walmart looking makeup in your pictures then thats a diferent story. Plus I dont have a car and leave kind of far from the city I I take the bus and then the train plus cab to get to the location where the photgrapher is. Mar 17 06 12:01 pm Link I'm also a model on a budget, and have found a few ways to shortcut, but it's still a lot of money. I am very serious about modeling, and realize the investments are necessary, so this is not a complaint. Just sharing information. I have a full time job and do quite bit of promotional work to help offset the cost. Should be able to quit the regular job soon, as the modeling is finally beginning to pay for itself. start-up costs, already discussed in earlier reply - agree for the most part On-going maintenance costs - $250 every six weeks for hair highlights and trim $30 month for tanning $45 month for gym membership (and no, I wouldn't subject myself to this if I didn't have to) $100 month for special food and energy bars to get through all day shoots $250 month - Runway training, ongoing like dance classes clothes - I do work a lot with some botiques on consignment, but many times need to purchase the accessories like shoes, belt, costume jewelry, etc. Can easily equal $100 per shoot - or up to $300 if a look has to be purchased. Are they used again? Maybe, but not usually. Most of my looks for modeling are not my personal style - they match a photographer's needs - so are not worn in a social situation. I have over 20 pairs of shoes because the photographer didn't like any of the ones I have for the look they were trying to create - make that 21, just had to buy another pair $79... and then not one shot that was published showed the feet travel - $200 month - car payment for a reliable car, can't afford to buy a beater outright as I may not make the shoot Gasoline for car - difficult to estimate $60 month train to downtown Chicago $20 month for bus in bad weather downtown hotel if needed, usually under $60 night but sometimes more if large city MUA and hair stylist - usually split with the photographer but necessary for a professional look And there is always the replacement of one of the start-up items that have worn out... Just my $.02 On the positive side, great tax write-off's. Mar 17 06 12:15 pm Link Keni wrote: Good info. Glad you enlightened us to the economical, yet still costly side of things. Mar 17 06 12:32 pm Link all of these costs are from about 3 months of shooting, not a single shoot, and all the numbers are gestimates, but it will give an idea: i didn't own any make-up except eye liner and mascara before i started modelling; i am a tomboy. did i mention wearing all that make-up makes me break out terribley? skin and make-up products: $300-400 i put my hair up in a pony tail every day. photographers expect a little more... each time i have to go to the salon: $150 products to straighten, curl, and then repair from all that: $200-300 again, i am pretty much a tomboy; i wear a watch for job interviews. jewlery and accesories: $200 i get a lot of requests for fire performance shoots. fuel and wicking and torches and safety: $200 fire safe (or safely flamable) clothing/material: $500 (and probably 30 hours of my own time) i love shoes....but i only really buy/wear boots or things very unusual. "nice" shoes: $800 i won't count clothes. because anything for which i pay i get to keep, and there is always a chance i will wear it again. but i have spent a lot. a lot. i have three times travelled specifically to model; one of those the photographer paid for everything. the other trips i have made i have been lucky enough to have friends who house me, but i still have basic transportation costs.... travel: $700 the incurred loss because of the suitcase stolen on my last trip (and no, this would not have happened normally--i had everything expensive packed for shoots): $5000 so....all in all.... Mar 17 06 05:46 pm Link Jayne Jones wrote: Honestly, whoever's charging you $1,000 for extensions better do a DAYUM good job. If you're paying $350 for clothing, why can't they be re-used? $1,000 for travel? Where you do live? Overseas? Models are resourceful, there are ways around everything you just mentioned....just gotta be resourceful. Mar 17 06 06:28 pm Link Mar 17 06 06:28 pm Link Jayne Jones wrote: Jayne Jones wrote: I don't believe in doing anything half assed Tony. That's all. If it costs me money, it costs me money. I save and plan and then DO it. My personal opinion? You're spending wayy to much money to be an amateur model. You may get "professional" looking images with average poses, still wouldn't fly. Have you tried local photographers in your area? And since you've NEVER worn extensions, why not go a cheaper route or since this is a ONE TIME thing, do the "hair bonding" deal, which is waaaay cheaper. I just don't see why you're spending all this money on a photo shoot, lol! It's almost retarded to me... Mar 17 06 06:33 pm Link Jayne Jones wrote: Do you fly First-Class and rent Mercedes? Mar 17 06 06:54 pm Link Hey, don't complain, at least majority of the photographers you (generally speaking) wish to shoot with live on the same continent. I had to fly 25 hours half way across the world to get to do TFP with photographers I admire. My plane ticket cost a fortune, the lingerie (yes itty bitty things can cost more than outfits that cover your whole ass) cost yet again way more than one should pay, and they were bought to be shot in once as they are distinctive. I'm a shoe-aholic so wonderful excuse to indulge in, shoes for shoots. Yes the make-up again is stupidly expensive when you're picky about which brand you put on your face, and then staying in a foreign country with a currency that is piss poor against the exchange rate... So it all amounts to a shitload of money. But it was my choice, I'm happy I did it and... my mother taught me it's rude and improper to speak about the cost of things! We're all mad to be spending so much money, but we love what we do, don't we?! Mar 17 06 06:56 pm Link Jayne Jones wrote: I'll be damned to hell if Im going to spend $1000 on some hair extentions and think about taking them out a week after. Mar 17 06 07:08 pm Link |
