Photographer
CameraSight
Posts: 1126
Roselle Park, New Jersey, US
Palm Coast Photography wrote:
Okay minor soapbox rant comming up. Why do I keep getting models that email me wanting to work with me or profiles from OMP that clearly state "I will not do any nude or implied nude photos" And then there emails and profiles are covered with full nude or partial nude images? Isn't that kind of like running a car for sale ad for a Ford when it is really a Chevy? So my question is if you don't do it why promote it and how did you get the pics in the first place? Okay sorry about that I will get off the rant soapbox now.
Eric Just remember .. NO means .... well, Maybe . LOL
Photographer
MartinCoatesIV
Posts: 450
Panama City Beach, Florida, US
Kristin Anne wrote:
I think it's a little strange that this really bugs you. Why do you care? Find another model who wants to work with you. We care because it is a common problem among models. They say in their profile they want to do one thing but thier port is filled with another.
Advice to model DO NOT put any type of images in your port your not willing to do currently (no TFP nudes is fine). If all you want to do is fashion dont fill your port with swim suit pics. Want only to comercial dont fill your port with art. And if you dont want to get naked at all even for money dont fill your port with various types of nudes. If a model is unwilling to do whats in her port she is unprofessional and I just move on to the next one. It dont hurt me none but I bet some model have been passed over for work because of it.
Martin IV
Photographer
jon mmmayhem
Posts: 8233
Philadelphia, Mississippi, US
that's some straight up lousy advice there, Martin.
tell me what's wrong with having a diverse portfolio that includes "THAT is what i've done, and THIS is what i want to do?"
Photographer
Jay Bowman
Posts: 6511
Los Angeles, California, US
No matter how many times I hear this frustration voiced, I still find it amusing.
If a model has nude photos up and says she won't do nudes SO EFFIN WHAT!?!?!
False advertisement is a store saying everything is 50% off but the discount is 12%. False advertisement is when they say all drinks free during happy hour but you get in ant they tell you it only applies to water and un-sweetened tea.
A model telling you exactly what she won't do even if she's done it previously is not false advertisement.
Why is that so frustrating?
If your girlfriend isn't a virgin, but she decides not to have sex with you, is that false advertisement as well because you know she's had horizontal refreshment before??
With some people I feel like it's this frustration stems from the same sort of jealousy "You did it with him, am I not special enough?!" There are plenty of models who will get nude. Many of them for free and certainly just as beautiful as those who keep their clothes on. Just keep going to you find one.
Model
K-A
Posts: 724
Healdsburg, California, US
SKPhoto wrote:
Perhaps because the time was taken to browse ports of people who had images like the ones this photographer wanted to make.
In advertising it's called "Bait & Switch". I beg to differ...
In my experience, photographers who have become irritated with me for not complying with their demands for me to get naked for them don't have skills that even remotely compare to those of photographers I've collaboratd with in the past. Nudes (or in my case topless, I don't do full nudes) can run the gamut from erotica to fashion nudes to glamour to smut. Oftentimes lower level photographers have difficulty offering an objective opinion regarding their own work, so their perception that my nudes are similar to theirs is based solely on the fact that my breasts are showing in a few of my pictures. In reality the images are worlds apart artistically.
The suggestion that anyone would owe someone for taking the time to "browse ports" based on a "bait and switch" tactic is LAUGHABLE. I can choose to do whatever I choose to do with whom I choose to do it because it's MY body.
Model
K-A
Posts: 724
Healdsburg, California, US
Marvin Coates IV wrote:
Advice to model DO NOT put any type of images in your port your not willing to do currently (no TFP nudes is fine). If all you want to do is fashion dont fill your port with swim suit pics. Want only to comercial dont fill your port with art. And if you dont want to get naked at all even for money dont fill your port with various types of nudes. If a model is unwilling to do whats in her port she is unprofessional and I just move on to the next one. It dont hurt me none but I bet some model have been passed over for work because of it. ...says "The Self Proclaimed Moderator of Model Profiles" *snicker* 
Photographer
Jose Luis
Posts: 2890
Dallas, Texas, US
I still say it stinks of bait and switch.
It's happened to me before where a girl who I would have otherwised never photographed for free or even spent much time networking with has "bait and switched" me.
Yes- one time it was my fault for not being specific and clarifying. The other time I was straight out lied to and Im not gonna force someone to do something- I just ended the shoot short.
PS: Please dont give me the "you only want nudes- you perve" come back. Yes- I am a perv- just like 99.9% of all men. Yes- I do enjoy shooting nudes. Yes- I also enjoy money. Yes- if you dont want to give me money and you still want me to shoot you and you look good nude and have posed nude in the past- it raises the likelihood I would give ya a free shoot for the heck of it (no guarantees- I turn down TFP nude regularly if Im busy or am not in love with your look). For the record- the majority of my paid and TFP shoots have been non nude.
Photographer
Burgos Photography
Posts: 641
Washington, District of Columbia, US
Dalmar wrote:
They mean: ANY LONGER. Just because they once did doesn't mean they always will. Also, they get bombarded with requests for nothing but nudes...and everyone wants a little variety in their book. They probably mean on a TFP basis, but for some cash--they'll get naked. I see this a lot when people I've been trying to get in for a clothed TFP end up canceling with me to shoot with another photographer and get some $ (usually they charge up to $75 and hour for nudes) and further perpetuate the cycle of their booty-full portfolio.
Model
K-A
Posts: 724
Healdsburg, California, US
SKPhoto wrote:
In advertising it's called "Bait & Switch". Jose- JoseOnline wrote:
I still say it stinks of "bait and switch". Since we all seem to be a little confused about the defintion of bait and switch, I've provided a definition courtesy of Wikipedia.com:
Bait and switch
A bait and switch is a form of fraud in which the fraudster lures in customers by advertising a good at an unprofitably low price, then reveals to potential customers that the advertised good is not available but that a substitute good is. The goal of the bait-and-switch is to convince some buyers to purchase the substitute good as a means of avoiding disappointment over not getting the bait, or as a way to recover sunk costs expended to try to obtain the bait. It suggests that the seller will not show the original product or product advertised but instead will demonstrate a more expensive product.
Photographer
Jose Luis
Posts: 2890
Dallas, Texas, US
Kristin Anne wrote:
A bait and switch is a form of fraud in which the fraudster lures in customers by advertising a good at an unprofitably low price, then reveals to potential customers that the advertised good is not available but that a substitute good is. The goal of the bait-and-switch is to convince some buyers to purchase the substitute good as a means of avoiding disappointment over not getting the bait, or as a way to recover sunk costs expended to try to obtain the bait. It suggests that the seller will not show the original product or product advertised but instead will demonstrate a more expensive product. Yup- exactly. The desired good is a model who is comfortable posing nude. The good that is switched is a model who no longer or doesnt pose nudes. Classic bait and switch.
Photographer
jon mmmayhem
Posts: 8233
Philadelphia, Mississippi, US
Jose- JoseOnline wrote:
Yup- exactly. The desired good is a model who is comfortable posing nude. The good that is switched is a model who no longer or doesnt pose nudes. ... for YOU.
do you get that?
Model
K-A
Posts: 724
Healdsburg, California, US
Jose- JoseOnline wrote:
Yup- exactly. The desired good is a model who is comfortable posing nude. The good that is switched is a model who no longer or doesnt pose nudes. Classic bait and switch. We're models, not prostitutes. Sorry, not bait and switch...especially if you're not paying.
Photographer
SKPhoto
Posts: 25784
Newark, California, US
Kristin Anne wrote:
Since we all seem to be a little confused about the defintion of bait and switch, I've provided a definition courtesy of Wikipedia.com:
Bait and switch
A bait and switch is a form of fraud in which the fraudster lures in customers by advertising a good at an unprofitably low price, then reveals to potential customers that the advertised good is not available but that a substitute good is. The goal of the bait-and-switch is to convince some buyers to purchase the substitute good as a means of avoiding disappointment over not getting the bait, or as a way to recover sunk costs expended to try to obtain the bait. It suggests that the seller will not show the original product or product advertised but instead will demonstrate a more expensive product. Yes.....and? My point exactly.
Perhaps it's just my male brain.
Although I have to wonder what kind of hate mail I would recieve from models if I were to list on each of my images "paid shoot". And then when I recieved inquiries from models to shoot with them and asked what I paid or was told their rate, and I responded with - "Oh no, I use to pay,...I don't do that anymore".
But then again I don't have to wonder. I've read posts from togs who have had just that happen.
I don't rent a car because it's painted red, I rent a car based on my needs and the advertising I've seen about it. And by the way if the advertising now says great for making french fries, I'll probably avoid that car like the plague. It has a history as a car, not a fry maker.
Model
RoxieBeckles
Posts: 195
Los Angeles, California, US
Jay Bowman wrote:
Womanese LOL, that's classic, I'm using that one, lol
Photographer
Jay Bowman
Posts: 6511
Los Angeles, California, US
Jay Bowman wrote:
Womanese RoxieB wrote:
LOL, that's classic, I'm using that one, lol :::snicker:::
Photographer
jon mmmayhem
Posts: 8233
Philadelphia, Mississippi, US
SKPhoto wrote:
I don't rent a car because it's painted red, I rent a car based on my needs and the advertising I've seen about it. you don't need a car's consent to drive it though, and you don't have to worry about a car being made uncomfortable by your demeanor or level of driving skills.
not exactly the best analogy, amigo.
Photographer
SKPhoto
Posts: 25784
Newark, California, US
jon mmmayhem wrote:
you don't need a car's consent to drive it though, and you don't have to worry about a car being made uncomfortable by your demeanor or level of driving skills.
not exactly the best analogy, amigo. No?
I have to have the consent of the owner in both instances.
Legal documents are signed in both instances.
Money/fair exchange may change hands in both instances.
I have a license and insurance or one, and insurance and references for the other.
And if I damage it there will be hell to pay with my insurance and possibly with the law.
Both are business transactions. Ooops does that need repeating. BOTH ARE BUSINESS TRANSACTIONS.
B-U-S-I-N-E-S-S.
Now if I were looking for a lovely golf partner...no that analogy doesn't work either, I'd look for someone I know plays golf and God forbid they tell me "Oohhhh Nooooo...I use to play golf but not anymore, now I bowl."
Sheesh!
Photographer
jon mmmayhem
Posts: 8233
Philadelphia, Mississippi, US
while i appreciate your needlessly condescending spelling lesson, i'm just going to keep laughing at you for missing the point over and over again.
Photographer
Jay Bowman
Posts: 6511
Los Angeles, California, US
Maybe I'm missing something here...
I was under the impression that this is an annoyance over models who have nudes in their profiles yet say they won't do nudes.
However, it seems that some of these analogies operate on the assumption that the model has photos that are nude, says she'll do nudes, comes to the shoot expected to do nudes, but would rather shoot with her clothes on...
Now which is it? Are models lying to get onto the set and then not fulfilling a written or spoken agreement...
...or do they have info on their profiles that is merely confusing given their imagery?
Because heaven forbid they should have a nude picture up and refuse to do nudes if asked. Or, even worse, say up front that they won't do nudes.
I just don't see why this is a big deal. There are plenty of models who are comfortable with nudity and want to be in nude images. It isn't the end of the world if one has a nude up and says she won't do it.
Photographer
jon mmmayhem
Posts: 8233
Philadelphia, Mississippi, US
no, Jay, i'm pretty sure you get it.
it's SKiPpy here who is "missing something".
his loss.
Model
K-A
Posts: 724
Healdsburg, California, US
SKPhoto wrote:
Although I have to wonder what kind of hate mail I would recieve from models if I were to list on each of my images "paid shoot". And then when I recieved inquiries from models to shoot with them and asked what I paid or was told their rate, and I responded with - "Oh no, I use to pay,...I don't do that anymore". Are we on the same planet here? What are you talking about?
SKPhoto wrote:
I don't rent a car because it's painted red, I rent a car based on my needs and the advertising I've seen about it. And by the way if the advertising now says great for making french fries, I'll probably avoid that car like the plague. It has a history as a car, not a fry maker. I think you need to reread the original post because we're WAY off topic. By the way, I don't have pictures online for you or anyone else to rent me like a used car. Your analogy is so weird, I'm not even following...
Photographer
Jose Luis
Posts: 2890
Dallas, Texas, US
jon mmmayhem wrote:
... for YOU.
do you get that? so they should say that. I would have no issue if a model was up front in her portfolio and said she only does nudes with certain photographers or certain assignments. We are talking about models who have nudes in their port and say they dont do nudes.
Thanks!
-Jose
Photographer
Jose Luis
Posts: 2890
Dallas, Texas, US
Kristin Anne wrote:
We're models, not prostitutes. Sorry, not bait and switch...especially if you're not paying. No Kristin Anne, time can be worth money as well. So yes- I am paying. Also, things like background paper, equipment, location, crew, wardrobe, foregone opps with other models who dont use bait and switch tactics, etc.
Also- your prostitute analogy is totally offbase here. We arent talking escort services or sex.
If we were talking about a burger salesman who switches burgers with tacos and the burger guy says- well- Im not a prostitute- does that make sense?
-Jose
Model
K-A
Posts: 724
Healdsburg, California, US
Jose- JoseOnline wrote:
No Kristin Anne, time can be worth money as well. So yes- I am paying. Also, things like background paper, equipment, location, crew, wardrobe, foregone opps with other models who dont use bait and switch tactics, etc.
Also- your prostitute analogy is totally offbase here. We arent talking escort services or sex. Jose, you're off topic. Read the original post.
Photographer
Jose Luis
Posts: 2890
Dallas, Texas, US
Kristin Anne wrote:
Jose, you're off topic. Read the original post. I read it- Im still on topic- thanks though.
-Jose
Model
K-A
Posts: 724
Healdsburg, California, US
Jose- JoseOnline wrote:
I read it- Im still on topic- thanks though.
-Jose No you're not.. You're talking aboutbooking models that flake or don't do what they agree to do. Totally different subject, if you'd read the thread, then you'd understand.
Model
K-A
Posts: 724
Healdsburg, California, US
Jay Bowman wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something here...
I was under the impression that this is an annoyance over models who have nudes in their profiles yet say they won't do nudes.
However, it seems that some of these analogies operate on the assumption that the model has photos that are nude, says she'll do nudes, comes to the shoot expected to do nudes, but would rather shoot with her clothes on...
Now which is it? Are models lying to get onto the set and then not fulfilling a written or spoken agreement...
...or do they have info on their profiles that is merely confusing given their imagery?
Because heaven forbid they should have a nude picture up and refuse to do nudes if asked. Or, even worse, say up front that they won't do nudes.
I just don't see why this is a big deal. There are plenty of models who are comfortable with nudity and want to be in nude images. It isn't the end of the world if one has a nude up and says she won't do it. Exactly.
Photographer
Jose Luis
Posts: 2890
Dallas, Texas, US
Kristin Anne wrote:
No you're not.. You're talking aboutbooking models that flake or don't do what they agree to do. Totally different subject, if you'd read the thread, then you'd understand. No dear- I just brough that up as further emphasis. It reflects the attitude that the original poster was talking about in models who say I dont do nudes- but have those images on their port.
I did read the thread. Thanks.
All of my posts on this thread have reflected the bait and switch scenario the original poster presented- I believe he used automobiles as an analogy (Ford/ Chevy, etc).
Thanks again for your concern tho- much appreciated!
-Jose
Model
Kiai
Posts: 39
Brooklyn, New York, US
Don't photos speak louder than words? I got a message from a photographer, and when I looked at his page, it was dominated not by nude photos, but of naked women. I didn't tell him that I thought he was skeevy and wouldn't risk the discomfort of being asked to take my clothes off. Just politely said no thank you and deleted his message.
Photographer
Jose Luis
Posts: 2890
Dallas, Texas, US
Kiai wrote:
Don't photos speak louder than words? Yes- Kiai- you bring up an excellent point. Photos DO speak louder than words. When a model has nude photos on her portfolio. It suggests that her acceptable level of wardrobe can include nude.
Im sure reasonable people understand that consent and agreement can be limited to time/ place/ person/ situation/ renumeration/ value, etc.
But- when an image says "I do nudes" and the words say "I dont do nudes" What speaks louder?
It goes back to your point- PHOTOS speak louder than words.
-Jose
Model
K-A
Posts: 724
Healdsburg, California, US
Jose- JoseOnline wrote:
No dear- I just brough that up as further emphasis. It reflects the attitude that the original poster was talking about in models who say I dont do nudes- but have those images on their port.
I did read the thread. Thanks.
All of my posts on this thread have reflected the bait and switch scenario the original poster presented- I believe he used automobiles as an analogy (Ford/ Chevy, etc)
Thanks again for your concern tho- much appreciated!
-Jose First of all, Jose, we're friends so I don't want to make this a pissing contest between the two of us. That said, it is my business what shoots I decide to do as a model and who I chose to work with. If expressing the desire not to do nudes is how I choose to represent myself, it's my business. If I were selling myself, the "bait and switch" argument would apply. In this case, it doesn't. I am not a commodity on the open market.
Photographer
Jose Luis
Posts: 2890
Dallas, Texas, US
Kristin Anne wrote:
First of all, Jose, we're friends so I don't want to make this a pissing contest between the two of us. That said, it is my business what shoots I decide to do as a model and who I chose to work with. If expressing the desire not to do nudes is how I choose to represent myself, it's my business. If I were selling myself, the "bait and switch" argument would apply. In this case, it doesn't. I am not a commodity on the open market. Kristin- lol- pissing? hehe We are conversing- we can end up totally disagreeing and being friends- I hope.
and we do
Model
McKenzie
Posts: 310
Fort Myers, Florida, US
Palm Coast Photography wrote:
Okay minor soapbox rant comming up. Why do I keep getting models that email me wanting to work with me or profiles from OMP that clearly state "I will not do any nude or implied nude photos" And then there emails and profiles are covered with full nude or partial nude images? Isn't that kind of like running a car for sale ad for a Ford when it is really a Chevy? So my question is if you don't do it why promote it and how did you get the pics in the first place? Okay sorry about that I will get off the rant soapbox now.
Eric I guess it would depend on the situation, what models are emailing you etc. For me.....I have that I don't do nude work...yet....people would say that I have nudes in my port. Am I comfortable with the type of images I have in my port..yes! I could tell one person I do nudes...and they would automatically assume that I show everything.... If I say I do implieds...then they understand that I don't show everything in my images. Some people would say I do nudes...some people would say I do implieds. If someone looks at my work and asks me if I am comfortable doing things like what I have....of course. I have no problem doing things. To sum it up, I think to each person is a different definition. People view things in different ways. A definition of nude to one person can be or mean something totally different to the next. Same way with implieds....one person's definition may be different from another.
This is where communication comes in. Finding out what the person is comfortable doing before you actually work with them and finding out what images they will be able to help produce with you. As long as the communication lines are open....I don't see why it would be a pain.
Some girls may not do nudes or full nudity anymore as well because of numerous requests that they received after the fact. There are so many people to watch out for in this industry. If someone says I do nudes...because in all actuality...in some photos I am completely nude...I just choose not to show anything in images...then so be it. I am happy to have done the images I have done and have no regrets. Again, I think communication is the key in what the photographer is wanting to accomplish when shooting and the things he/she wants to shoot. The model...also needs to communicate what she is comfortable in doing.
xoxoxo
McKenzie
Photographer
Done and Gone
Posts: 7650
Chiredzi, Masvingo, Zimbabwe
I used to Lab Assist at a photo lab at a community college. It was a fun vibrant community of all sorts of people. At one point I became known as the Lab Dude that shot nudes and got to shoot with some of the ladies I met there. One of my friends I had met there, we'll call her Jill, stated clearly several times "I would never pose nude". Some of these statements were made in coversation with me, some in coversation with other people while I was in same room, and once while I was in the next room with the door open and simply overheard. So, I never asked her. One day when we were chit-chatting about this and that Jill popped off with "So, how come you never ask me to pose for you?". We did a shoot together outdoors, she was nude the entire time and we took some nice pictures together. Was I upset? No. Did I feel mis-lead? No. Are women different than men? Uhhh.........
Photographer
Christopher Wright
Posts: 11854
Lansing, Michigan, US
McKenzie wrote:
I guess it would depend on the situation, what models are emailing you etc. For me.....I have that I don't do nude work...yet....people would say that I have nudes in my port. Am I comfortable with the type of images I have in my port..yes! I could tell one person I do nudes...and they would automatically assume that I show everything.... If I say I do implieds...then they understand that I don't show everything in my images. Some people would say I do nudes...some people would say I do implieds. If someone looks at my work and asks me if I am comfortable doing things like what I have....of course. I have no problem doing things. To sum it up, I think to each person is a different definition. People view things in different ways. A definition of nude to one person can be or mean something totally different to the next. Same way with implieds....one person's definition may be different from another.
This is where communication comes in. Finding out what the person is comfortable doing before you actually work with them and finding out what images they will be able to help produce with you. As long as the communication lines are open....I don't see why it would be a pain.
Some girls may not do nudes or full nudity anymore as well because of numerous requests that they received after the fact. There are so many people to watch out for in this industry. If someone says I do nudes...because in all actuality...in some photos I am completely nude...I just choose not to show anything in images...then so be it. I am happy to have done the images I have done and have no regrets. Again, I think communication is the key in what the photographer is wanting to accomplish when shooting and the things he/she wants to shoot. The model...also needs to communicate what she is comfortable in doing.
xoxoxo
McKenzie I think I can safely say for the rest of us that we are happy that you do what you do. 
Photographer
photographybyfrank
Posts: 455
Clearwater, Florida, US
pure and simple, don't show what you woun't do, even if you have done it in the past , the past is the past
Model
McKenzie
Posts: 310
Fort Myers, Florida, US
Christopher Wright wrote:
I think I can safely say for the rest of us that we are happy that you do what you do. Thank You
McK
Photographer
Done and Gone
Posts: 7650
Chiredzi, Masvingo, Zimbabwe
photographybyfrank wrote:
pure and simple, don't show what you woun't do, even if you have done it in the past , the past is the past Do you have any of your past photographs up on your port? The past is anything from yesterday and before in my book. Of course you do!! Let others show the pictures they are proud of just like you do!!! And quit stamping your feet and holding your breath!!
Photographer
jon mmmayhem
Posts: 8233
Philadelphia, Mississippi, US
photographybyfrank wrote:
pure and simple, don't show what you woun't do, even if you have done it in the past , the past is the past so... wait... as a photographer, does that mean i should take down that picture i have of Audrey in a Wolverine mask with the knives taped to her gloves?
because i probably won't ever do a shoot with those ever again.
i'd hate for some earnest girl to spend all her time browsing my port (thus earning her the right to expect and presume whatever she wants), getting her hopes up, only for me to bait and switch like "SORRY CHARLIE, no more Wolverine for you!"
Model
Jeri Lynn Astra
Posts: 240
Pleasantville, New York, US
Kristin Anne wrote:
I beg to differ...
In my experience, photographers who have become irritated with me for not complying with their demands for me to get naked for them don't have skills that even remotely compare to those of photographers I've collaboratd with in the past. Nudes (or in my case topless, I don't do full nudes) can run the gamut from erotica to fashion nudes to glamour to smut. Oftentimes lower level photographers have difficulty offering an objective opinion regarding their own work, so their perception that my nudes are similar to theirs is based solely on the fact that my breasts are showing in a few of my pictures. In reality the images are worlds apart artistically.
The suggestion that anyone would owe someone for taking the time to "browse ports" based on a "bait and switch" tactic is LAUGHABLE. I can choose to do whatever I choose to do with whom I choose to do it because it's MY body. *applauds*
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