|
Forums >
General Industry >
Why don't models ever want to.....
Who cares? I don't do this for models to pay me. I do this to build a portfolio, find clients, and hire models and MUA's I've worked with. If I want people to model and pay me, I'll take a portrait or shoot a wedding (never...too much stress). If I want to collaborate and do something creative for me, I'll call my favorite MUA and find a model and try something new. I make money working for corporate clients. And here's a hint, I only hire models I've worked with before. Mar 02 06 10:46 pm Link Malchow Photography wrote: Because photogs ask us to shoot....and those are the 2 responses we can think of off hand! LOL Mar 02 06 10:53 pm Link Malchow Photography wrote: a) Model believes she has something you want and model does not believe you have something she wants --> model asks for pay Mar 02 06 10:53 pm Link Malchow Photography wrote: They don't always say it in general. Which makes the question 'why' kind of silly. Malchow Photography wrote: They don't. You've already said they don't always do so for you, and they certainly don't all do so for most of the photographers I know. (Sure, some do. That's life.) Mar 02 06 11:28 pm Link Malchow Photography wrote: Models do. Internet picture takers don't. It's not difficult to get payment if you can produce what is needed. Mar 02 06 11:33 pm Link THE SAME CAN BE ASKED OF THE PHOTOGRAPHER: WHAT MAKES HIM THINK HE SHOULD BE TROWING RATES AT ANYONE? WHEN THERE ARE SO MANY PHOTOGRAPHERS WHO WILL SHOOT TFP/TFCD AND MODELS AS WELL IT MAKES IT DIFFICULT FOR ANYONE TRYING TO TURN A BUCK OFF A SHOOT. Mar 02 06 11:33 pm Link Well guys, this is a simple question with a simple "set" of answers. To answer the question as to WHY models don't pay and they want to get paid is this (do the math): 1. Most photographers aren't worth paying 2. Most models aren't worth paying 3. TFP/CDs are a way to improve for both the model and photographer 4. Unless there is mutual gain, a TFP/CD session is offset 5. All TFP/CDs are in the models' favor 6. Photographers have to simply deal with more 7. It costs photographers more (monetarily) to do a TFP/CD Now, having said that, this entire industry has turned into an exploitation of BOTH the photographer AND the model. ANY photographer can get some model to do a TFP, even if it's walking up to someone off the street (non-model) and asking them if they would be willing to pose. But this wasn't enough. Most of the photographers out there are IN FACT, perverts with cameras. A certain passive aggressive pathology in which he (it's always a "he") would be willing to PAY a model to come into his home (it's usually a house) studio, tell her to get naked, and essentially tell them what to do. It's voyeuristic fetishism at it's finest. There's rarely any pro lighting equipment, or even a real studio setup. We even came up with a name for it....GLAMOUR PHOTOGRAPHY. But it doesn't end there. There are enough crappy photographers out there that engage in this ritualistic "pay and get naked and do what I tell you" routine that it has actually influenced the modeling world. Models that aren't worth paying are now getting paid as long as they get naked or "implied". This symptom is now, radically infectious. So...consider this... We now have a market, where there are sexually deviant photographers paying delusional models to engage in a pseudo-prostitution act that is sanctioned under the guise of "ART". Statistically speaking, their numbers are VAST... So that the true to art photographers and models are so astronomically low in numbers that we have this artifact in society where EVERYONE WANTS TO GET PAID, which only further perpetuates this cyclic "crappy paying crappy". Thus, consider the mind of a model. EVERY FEMALE out there is programmed by the media (as well as society) to WANT to be models (and/or beautiful, even though fat seems to be in fashion EVERY YEAR). The ones that actually "DO" something about that innate urge are pathologically different from the ones that don't. This is neither good nor bad, BUT the profile of the ones that "DO" are typically more susceptable to exploitation by a grungy dirty ole' pervert (with little to no skills) that's willing to talk a girl into getting naked, and if that doesn't work, throwing some money at her. The new ones have learned some of this routine, and set it up from the beginning...KNOWING...that statistically, someone will bite... Money is an attractive thing, both practically as well as psychologically (strokes and cultivates the ole' ego / insecurity), and thus the circle goes round and round. In my career, I have seen some crazy things. Once a friend of mine (who models for a living) had arranged a shoot with a photographer at her house. She was getting paid 100/hr for 4 hours (that's 400 bucks for those of you that failed math like I did). I happened to be visiting. In walks this fat old grungy looking guy with a plastic bag. In the bag (labeled WAWA), sat 3 disposable film cameras purchased at a convenience store on his way in. The shoot was artistic nude...with a lightbulb as the light source. My jaw dropped. He then sent her pictures (nudes) on a CD that was processed by Ritz. This is a constant and regular occurance throughout the industry. There are girls out there doing this for a living because there are enough photographers out there that are willing to pay for a naked girl. Call it a private interactive live and in person strip show. I even know a few photographers that never pick up a camera during the shoot and end up having sex with the models. This happens EVERYWHERE. I hope this answers your questions. Please understand that this explanation is by no means applicable to the few of us out there (both models and photographers) that do this for the ART, but rather, lends more as an explanation of the deviance that is predominant in the community. We must make a stand...although we are so out numbered that it won't make a damn bit of difference. For those of you that fall into the former category, hate mail can be sent to: [email protected] Regards, Dr. Steven W. Choi Mar 02 06 11:35 pm Link Malchow Photography wrote: because maybe the little bit of money they get, they might want to do something else with it like buy some clothes, go out and hang out, or save up towards something. at least she knows any of those 3 wont stroke their ego for the money, lol. Mar 02 06 11:46 pm Link D. Brian Nelson wrote: theda wrote: sorry, i had to make this in bold incase it wasnt read, this is the thread closer right there and end of story answer. Mar 02 06 11:49 pm Link Malchow Photography wrote: hold up - take this into account. say "model generic" gets started in modeling and is getting her feet wet, and you approach her to shoot and charge her, say $250 or maybe even $400. now the babe has to get the money (chances are she's in college and is more worried about school than some modeling s@#t), which is not exactly laying around. so now she's using "good money" to pay you to shoot her for something she's not even doing full-time. Mar 03 06 12:13 am Link if it's for my needs i'll do tfp. if it's for thier needs i'll charge them. photographers just get better with age... models just get old. Mar 03 06 12:18 am Link WRONG!! I DID PAY A PROFESSIONAL photographer to shoot me. And that was my FIRST photoshoot EVER!! And the pictures were great, better than some I'd had later on when I continued shooting. I didn't want to go to the first GWC and take crappy pictures. The second one I paid was a big mistake...lol...both those were almost four and a half years ago. But the funny thing is that some models on here(don't get me started with the names  ) don't really appreciate and make a difference between a great photographer, a good photographer, an OK photographer and a GWC photographer... OR some expect to shoot with " a Steven Meisel" thinking they are THAT GOOD!! Give me a break...we are all looking for our Meisel...and trying to get better at what we do! Or at least I try and I hope I'm doing it right! That's just my 2 cents...if not more... â p.s. I was wondering if I should have really typed all this and hit "reply"...I guess I did. Mar 03 06 12:33 am Link elisaveta â wrote: love it! I'm about to quit this site as I am bombarded by ugliness! Mar 03 06 12:36 am Link Since I've come to this board I've read SOOOO many posts like this - you think you guys would get tired of it. Look, if you're just having fun or shooting models for the love of it (as I do as a break from more monotonous commercial work), then work TFP - everyone's happy. But if someone is trying to build their book to go out into the brick and mortar world, they should be investing heavily in it. If a model is looking to get agency work and feels she needs a quality portfolio to do so, she should hire the best photographers and MUA she can afford to shoot her and should avoid TFP at all costs. If a photographer is looking to get agency work and feels they need a quality portfolio to do so, they should hire the best models and MUAs they can and should avoid TFP at all costs. For anyone else, it's really just whatever they're comfortable with - and if what they're doing makes them happy, so be it. It's really that simple. I don't understand what all the fuss is about? Matt Mar 03 06 12:41 am Link Malchow Photography wrote: Oliver Cole wrote: Here is a wise man Thank you Mr. Cole. Dude, what kind of crack are you smoking? Mar 03 06 12:48 am Link Looknsee Photography wrote: TRUE. Mar 03 06 12:51 am Link To the O.P. Neither models nor photographers should be having to pay the model/photographer directly or complain that nobody will pay them. Due to the fact that major money should come from clients :-p .... Oh wait, that's for models and photographers in demand crap... oh well anyways "why ask why?" nobody wants to pay, unless one is exceptionally good... It all goes both ways really... O.G. Mar 03 06 12:56 am Link Ian Weintraub wrote: You're not paying a prostitute for sex. You're paying them to go AWAY after having sex. Mar 03 06 01:03 am Link FML-Photography wrote: same here, but be prepared to say goodbye to a lot of folks when they call. Mar 03 06 01:04 am Link RONIN Studios wrote: I am so tired of hearing shit like this! It's BULLSHIT! Mar 03 06 01:05 am Link Hamza wrote: Au contraire, mon ami. First you need quality porn - that ain't cheap - and if you have a short attention span like I do, you need a fairly well stocked library for a full day of jerking off. That alone will cost you more than $30. Then there's lubricant, tissues, soap, towels.. The list goes on... Mar 03 06 01:09 am Link Paramour Productions wrote: Hamza wrote: Au contraire, mon ami. First you need quality porn - that ain't cheap - and if you have a short attention span like I do, you need a fairly well stocked library for a full day of jerking off. That alone will cost you more than $30. Then there's lubricant, tissues, soap, towels.. The list goes on... Come on, close your eyes, think of sheep, spit on your hand, it's all free!!! Mar 03 06 01:12 am Link maineeeeeee i waste $30 on lunch here in NYC, so if these dudes are whining over those type of expenses, then they need to go buy a dog. if a photog is that confident in his work, then why the hell is he whining on a free site to models (who now see him as a whiner) about making money? somebody needs to S.O.S. diaz or trute or udo to lock and bolt this.... Mar 03 06 01:16 am Link Malchow Photography wrote: Actually I don't think so. I have some model friends who are well known and pretty much have their pick of who to shoot with. They don't look down on photographers who are inexperienced or even those who just aren't very good... they don't have time to worry about that, because there are just too many inexperienced photographers out there. I really don't think there are any illusions; at least some experienced models know that some... a small percentage... of those newer photographers will stick it out, work hard, learn, get better. They understand that a few of them will become successful. If anything, they get excited when they find a promising new talent and are happy to work with them. Mar 03 06 01:39 am Link Ive had models pay me for portfolios. Then again these models weren't from MM lol maybe thats why Guess it depends on the area and the clientele and word of mouth of past models who have worked with you.. Although I shoot wedding and other things as well and those pay to. If the model can do her makeup and so forth I'll do TFP also.  Mar 03 06 06:38 am Link I personally dont have the money to pay someone to take my pictures, hah. Sad, I know. If someone offers a shoot where I would have to pay I decline as politely as possible, now if make up and wardrobe were provided and i really had admiration for the photographers work then id try and get the money for it Mar 03 06 06:41 am Link Malchow Photography wrote: thats a tad rediculous to think someone will pay you ... to practice on them..... Mar 03 06 07:05 am Link Hamza wrote: RRRiight.... What about the equipment, cameras, lenses, lighting equipment, light modifiers, softboxes, custom stages - (light box, panels, props, etc...), MUA, Hair stylist, Consumables (paper backdrop, CDs, DVDs, ink - by the way, do you know how much ink costs per mL?, paper, etc...), all of the time editing, software, electricity, legal fees (incorporating), liability insurance (say a model slips and falls-blah blah blah)and so on... Mar 03 06 08:12 am Link markcomp wrote: Oooh, I got upset. And I should have said I was offended as a woman, and not just as a model. Never-the-less, I'm a little embarrassed I let it get to me. Mar 03 06 08:57 am Link Like any other business, a well known name will net you (more) cash. If I want the band Camel Toe to play at my party, it's pretty cheap. If I want Britney Spears it's really expensive even though I think Camel Toe is better. I also think if it's beneficial to both parties, there's nothing wrong with TFP/CD. I've been an art director for major NY agencies for years so I do know my art. But, I'm fairly inexperienced on the technical end when it comes to photography. TFP gets me that opportunity to experiment and learn without costing me. I would rather learn with an inexperienced model because he/she (yes I work with guys too) is more patient, enthusiastic, and willing to experiment. When I'm confident I can create exactly what a client wants, I charge everytime. And get it. I don't believe TFP cuts into paid work any more that any other business. my thoughts for what they're worth. Mar 03 06 09:33 am Link RONIN Studios wrote: I agreed until I got to this part. How do you figure? If the model is brand new and the photographer is an established, skilled, creative artist or professional, then sure. If it's the other way around, then no. Mar 03 06 09:52 am Link And as a P.S., I am not deviant just because I sometimes shoot nudes. I am deviant because I like to be tied up and spanked and... Well. Maybe that's for another discussion. Mar 03 06 09:54 am Link Its pretty simple if a model contacts you and wants to set up a tfp/tfcd with you and you dont wanna do that... send her your rates. If she feels that you are worth it than she will, maybe offer her a payment plan of half up front and half after ( but before you give her photos obviously). If you stand by your work and its up to par than you wont have to worry about it. I get tfp/tfcd offers all the time, but rarely do I ever do them .Just a little food for thought. Mar 03 06 10:03 am Link KM von Seidl wrote: Ha! It's funny 'cause it's true! Mar 03 06 10:08 am Link Malchow Photography wrote: I'm going to tell why because there are plenty of other photographers that would do it for free. If there wasn't any then maybe they would pay for your work. and problably there wouldnt be as many models out in the industry either. Mar 03 06 10:12 am Link I am fortunate enough to be a full time photographer. I have a studio built onto my house. I don't make enough to pay the bills, just keep the studio going and maybe some grocery money. My husband has a day job to pay the bills. I make my money from shooting high school seniors and families. I shoot glamour for fun. Just for fun. I'm always willing to do a TFP/CD shoot with a model who also just does it for fun. To me, it's about collaboration, getting what I want and getting what they want. I don't ever expect to make any real money at glamour. I live in a small town and I know realistically it's just not going to happen. It's just fun and practise for me. It gives me a chance to try new lighting techniques or new poses, or new props. A chance to learn and practice things that I can carry over to where I do make my money, seniors. So...Any models in the St. Louis area want to have fun with me? Mar 03 06 10:51 am Link Looknsee Photography wrote: Bingo. Give the man a cigar, he has stated it quite nicely. Mar 03 06 10:52 am Link David Moyle wrote: I was going to agree with the last line in your reply Mr. Moyle (just to be a shite head) except that your entire response/ post is valid. Mar 03 06 11:09 am Link my first shoot I paid for the photographer and studio and cost me a fortune i must be honest if i had known about tfp and tfcd i don't think i would have paid... there are too many offers to do it for free so i wouldn't blame the models blame the other photographers...it kinda goes both ways... xx shelly Mar 03 06 11:11 am Link Well lets say its a new model that contacts a photographer saying he/she wants to start a portfolio... In many cases i've found that the newbie model gets insulted when told about rates and expects to do a tfp/cd. I understand that models have expenses like their cloths and makeup, but we also have all our equipment, electricity and then there's post processing. All that time spent after the shoot to touch up photos should have some value. Mar 03 06 11:42 am Link |
