Malchow Photography wrote:
Thanks for the laugh, but this is (at least to me) a very important, if genrealized question. It isn't about sex, or your sexual escapades...I want to know why so many if not most models feel that they don't have to pay for anything...

MY OPINION is that there exists in the model's mindset a STRIP CLUB MENTALITY

This is what happens when MEN pay money in clubs to look at women, but not touch.
I will NEVER understand this concept. Also the idea that now runs in all forums of American life, "the something for nothing" concept. Hard work, struggle, effort, "paying your dues" does not exist in the "instant generation","the me generation", the Polaroid and now the digital generation.

This problem for photographers would disappear in 1 week IF the men would STOP being so desperate to see some T & A.

Oliver Cole

Malchow Photography wrote:
if I can't afford to get better because some people choose to not pay me or have arrogent attitudes like some, and won't work with me, because they are too snobbish and spoiled to, or because they forgot where they came from and how it was getting there...  with out people paying for the work and services that photographers provide... how can we as photographers improve or equipment, education and experience?

People putting money in your pocket has nothing to do with you improving your skill, that's on you.  Same goes for stylists, makeup artists like myself, etc.

Oliver Cole wrote:
This problem for photographers would disappear in 1 week IF the men would STOP being so desperate to see some T & A.

Oliver Cole

Huh, I photographed other things for years before women. I photographed:

Men
Children
Products
Buildings
Plants
Scenics
Cars
Trucks
Rocks
Fish
Birds
Cats
Dogs
The moon
Bugs
Water
Clouds
Sunsets
Sand
Dead Leaves

D. Brian Nelson wrote:
They do.  They just don't pay you.

Respectfully submitted,
Don

How true!  LOL

Oliver Cole wrote:

MY OPINION is that there exists in the model's mindset a STRIP CLUB MENTALITY

This is what happens when MEN pay money in clubs to look at women, but not touch.
I will NEVER understand this concept. Also the idea that now runs in all forums of American life, "the something for nothing" concept. Hard work, struggle, effort, "paying your dues" does not exist in the "instant generation","the me generation", the Polaroid and now the digital generation.

This problem for photographers would disappear in 1 week IF the men would STOP being so desperate to see some T & A.

Oliver Cole

Here is a wise man Thank you Mr. Cole.

Malchow Photography wrote:
... pay a photographer to get work done?

Its always "I'll do TFP/TFCD" or "paid work only." I don't get it? Especially from the newbies.

Now granted, there are (a few, very few) very exceptional and naturally talented, models out there, but looks aren't everything.

What do you have to offer? Can you do your own make-up, with photograhy or movie make-up... can you style your hair the way the photog wants it... do you know how to pose without direction... do you make your own wardrobe?

what makes a model so special that he or she think they are all of that, that they don't have to (literally) pay their dues?

I can give you my own personal answer/response for this.... as a newbie.

So far I have come across only 2 photographers in my area that I would ever consider paying for their services.  I consider their work absolutely amazing, and have honestly spent hours going through their portfolios and staring in utter amazement at their wonderful creations   But... both of them mainly shoot more traditional, "standard" models in high fashion and glamour.  I am neither a high fashion nor a glamour model.  I have neither the height nor the "body" for either one.  I am the breadwinner in a one-income family, which means we live on a very tight budget.  I can not afford to pay for what I guess one would consider the very "best" available to me just yet (the 2 photogs I mentioned earlier) and I refuse to pay for anything I only consider "pretty good"... especially if it is a photographer who is inexperienced with working with big girls.

Now, in a much less serious manner, I also have to say that I think this argument goes both ways.  Since I can do my own hair & make-up if I need to, and have no problem providing my own wardrobe... please tell me....

Why should I, as a new model, be expected to pay a photographer who probably doesn't have much experience posing & directing, much less capturing the beauty and essense of beautiful, fat bodies like mine?  Why should I pay a photographer who doesn't know what kind of hair & make-up would work best on me with my skin tone for our shoot?  Why should I pay a photographer who doesn't know the least bit about the right pattern and color combinations that are most flattering to my figure & body type when seen through the lense of a camera? 

And in an even more direct way of countering the OP...

Why do so many photographer's pages say "I am not offering tfp/tfcd right now... contact me for my pricing & packages!"?  Now granted, there are a few (very few) very exceptional and naturally talented, photographers out there, but pointing and clicking aren't everything.  What makes a photographer so special that he or she thinks that there is no need to (literally) pay their dues?

(LoL.)

I hope that you all can see the lighthearted manner with which I am typing this reply.  My only intent is to say to everyone, especially the OP, that you can never point a finger at someone else without having three of your other fingers pointing directly back at you.  So, let's just live & let live... in the grand scheme of things, there's a place for everybody.  And obviously someone somewhere is paying somebody for something.... otherwise there would be no money cycling & recycling itself throughout this industry.

Red Sky Photography wrote:
I just can't see that as a lucrative business outlook, but maybe you will prove me wrong.

I hope to be able to, someday. I have had models pay me, to get their portfolios done, and have made some good money from time to time doing it.

And though there may be those that think my work is not good enough, it's jut not good enough for them.

I have had clients go one to do good and great things, and I helped them get their start.  So regardless of what other people might think of me, or my work, I love what I do, and my clients (models or otherwise) are very happy with it too. I never said, or presumed to be great, but in time I will get better.

Malchow Photography wrote:
... if I can't afford to get better because some people choose to not pay me or have arrogent attitudes like some, and won't work with me, because they are too snobbish and spoiled to, or because they forgot where they came from and how it was getting there...  with out people paying for the work and services that photographers provide... how can we as photographers improve or equipment, education and experience?

Learning photography is largely about learning to see, make use of, and manipulate light.  As my mentor keeps reminding me (because I, like you, am lazy and would prefer to practice on models), the learning of our craft is not dependent upon having a pretty girl there willing to be photographed.  Shoot a little bit every day in different lighting conditions, until you can take the most kick-ass picture of your dirty laundry, or your cat, or raindrops on your car hood.  Models are not obligated to pay you in order for you to practice.  Just pick up your camera and go do it!  Then when you do have a pretty girl in front of your lens, you’ll create images with her that will knock her socks off.

As to the rest of the above comment, you’re joking, right?  Did you really just say that any model who won’t pay you to shoot her is “arrogant,â€? “snobbish,â€? and “spoiled?â€?  Are you for real?  Maybe photographers sometimes pay their dues by working collaboratively, taking pictures of their potted plants, and doing a fucking happy dance anytime an interesting model comes along who is kind enough to let an amateur photographer take pictures of them.

Christ, and people wonder why there’s an antagonistic relationship between photographers and models.

Malchow Photography wrote:

Here is a wise man Thank you Mr. Cole.

I disagree. To equate that photographers that offer tfp, or test shoots, do so
because they are "so desperate to see some T & A" is a insulting statement.

I know of some excellent photographers that do not shoot "T & A" shots that
offer TFP (test) shoots.
And to find out which photographers offer test/tfp shoots, click on any of the
better models portfolios and see how many actually paid a photographer
for any of their shoots.
Until your work is better than theirs, why would a model pay ?


Robert

Malchow Photography wrote:

Thank you hourglass... this is more what I am looking for... But you still didn't answer the original question..why don't models want to pay for anything?

You as a model, you work and go to school. So I can understand that there are financial obligations... but even so, if you have few extra dollars, why couldn't you pay a photographer for helping you out with your folio, compcard images, or other images you use to market yourself?

I am also college student, the reason why we can't pay you is because, like hourglass said, we don't have the money. Would you not be completely offended if I told you all I could give you is $10/hr? I think that you would. Modeling and photography work best when TFP is done. In most cases, half the photographers that contact me want to do TFP and I have no problem with what. However, I have found that half of them are just guys with cameras that want to shoot with me. I mean i'm nothing special, but I do have more experience than most girls, bring my own wardrobe, do hair, and makeup, therefor, if an amatuer photographers comes to me and tells me he will pay me then thats the way it should be bc he's using the model as a learning tool. Some photographers are very stingy about this whole TFP thing. If you don't like it... get rid of ur mm, it's as simple as that!

Sita Mae Edwards wrote:
As to the rest of the above comment, you’re joking, right?  Did you really just say that any model who won’t pay you to shoot her is “arrogant,â€? “snobbish,â€? and “spoiled?â€?  Are you for real?  Maybe photographers sometimes pay their dues by working collaboratively, taking pictures of their potted plants, and doing a fucking happy dance anytime an interesting model comes along who is kind enough to let an amateur photographer take pictures of them.

Christ, and people wonder why there’s an antagonistic relationship between photographers and models.

Ok, to clarify... those particular remarks were intended for a specific person who replied earlier in this thread.

But to anwer your question, No. That is not what I just said. If that is how you took it, then let me explain ( to you and who ever else might have misunderstood)what the intent of it was ... For those that have established themselves, and are seasoned models, that now look down on, or condiscend to people or who belittle others, and have gotten arrogent, spoiled, and snobbish, because they are used to a certain lifestyle or quality of work, etc... because the yet unestablished or up-and-coming photogbrapher has not yet attaind a level that thay have... they have forgotten where they came from, the humble begginnings, etc. it has nothing to do with them paying a photographer it is just the looking down the nose attitude they have about not working with someone to help bolster thier career, give them a hand up, or help them to get more established or better expereinced.

Now as I stated before, I never presumed to be great, or astounding, or astonishing, but when I work with people who help me to be creative, rather than put me down, it inspires me to explore new ideas, projects, skills, techniques, etc.

adrienne of Zswana wrote:
'cause I don't have to

And I don't blame ya !


Robert

D. Brian Nelson wrote:

They do.  They just don't pay you.

Respectfully submitted,
Don

lol

Supply and demand...

Malchow Photography wrote:
ok, so let me ask you this... if I can't afford to get better because some people choose to not pay me or have arrogent attitudes like some, and won't work with me, because they are too snobbish and spoiled to, or because they forgot where they came from and how it was getting there...  with out people paying for the work and services that photographers provide... how can we as photographers improve or equipment, education and experience?

If you can't afford to get better to the point where models are willing to pay you...then you need to do something else to earn $$$.

Also, even if you were AWESOME but expect to earn a living shooting models...good luck.  Most models that I know are always broke....

And the ones that aren't can choose to work with almost any photographer they desire....

As a photographer...how can YOU improve?  Well, books/college/field experience can help improve your photograpic skills/composition.  Business/marketing/accounting classes can help you understand how a business functions.  Spend the money in those areas FIRST to learn what you need to learn.

After you have the basics, HIRE models who can improve your book.  Your pictures are your "advertising" so if all you present are "TFP" or "non-model" quality images of so called "models" then what do you expect?

Just as some models HIRE photographers who can help them produce work that can be used to MARKET them for PAID work...so too should photographers PAY MODELS who can help them produce work that can be used to MARKET the photographer for PAID work....

But remember my little statement above...if by PAID WORK you think that you will make a living from photographing models only...dream on.  PAID WORK means work for clients who will actually be able to afford to pay what your photography is worth...

Regards,

Denoy

Oliver Cole wrote:
MY OPINION is that there exists in the model's mindset a STRIP CLUB MENTALITY

This is what happens when MEN pay money in clubs to look at women, but not touch.
I will NEVER understand this concept. Also the idea that now runs in all forums of American life, "the something for nothing" concept. Hard work, struggle, effort, "paying your dues" does not exist in the "instant generation","the me generation", the Polaroid and now the digital generation.

This problem for photographers would disappear in 1 week IF the men would STOP being so desperate to see some T & A.

Oliver Cole

Oh Jesus, I can not tell you, as a model, how OFFENDED I am at this statement...

I must edit: what about the photographers who expect shit for free?? I have seen them. Their port is decent at best, but they are here in the forums complaining about flakes, or models asking for money, etc.  This is bullshit. I'm sick of it. Put your money or talent where your mouth is, or shut up...to people in general, not just the OP or Oliver.

Katelyn Stalker wrote:
I am also college student, the reason why we can't pay you is because, like hourglass said, we don't have the money. Would you not be completely offended if I told you all I could give you is $10/hr? I think that you would. Modeling and photography work best when TFP is done. In most cases, half the photographers that contact me want to do TFP and I have no problem with what. However, I have found that half of them are just guys with cameras that want to shoot with me. I mean i'm nothing special, but I do have more experience than most girls, bring my own wardrobe, do hair, and makeup, therefor, if an amatuer photographers comes to me and tells me he will pay me then thats the way it should be bc he's using the model as a learning tool. Some photographers are very stingy about this whole TFP thing. If you don't like it... get rid of ur mm, it's as simple as that!

Katelyn,

I'd work with you for $10/hour...possibly even FREE.

You have a "marketable" look for the work that I do so getting "PAID" by you would not be a pre-requisite if a mutually beneficial trade deal could be arranged....

But it is interesting to note that many of those who DON'T need to pay to "attract" photographers to work with them are more often than not, WILLING to pay if they feel the resulting pictures would be worth it...

Just food for thought...

- Denoy

Angel Tara wrote:
[Oliver Cole]MY OPINION is that there exists in the model's mindset a STRIP CLUB MENTALITY

This is what happens when MEN pay money in clubs to look at women, but not touch.
I will NEVER understand this concept. Also the idea that now runs in all forums of American life, "the something for nothing" concept. Hard work, struggle, effort, "paying your dues" does not exist in the "instant generation","the me generation", the Polaroid and now the digital generation.

This problem for photographers would disappear in 1 week IF the men would STOP being so desperate to see some T & A.

Oliver Cole[]
Oh Jesus, I can not tell you, as a model, how OFFENDED I am at this statement...

Angel,

I think this statement shows more about Oliver's mentality than what he claims is the mentality of the models.

- Denoy

Malchow Photography wrote:
[edit] ok, so let me ask you this... if I can't afford to get better because some people choose to not pay me or have arrogent attitudes like some, and won't work with me, because they are too snobbish and spoiled to, or because they forgot where they came from and how it was getting there...  with out people paying for the work and services that photographers provide... how can we as photographers improve or equipment, education and experience?

"can't afford to get better"?

If no subject or models were available for trade purposes, this might make sense. It clearly doesn't apply in the real world. Perhaps you won't find A-level agency models willing to work with you, but if your work isn't at that level already*, it will make less of a difference.

If a model feels--rightly or not--that your work will not benefit him/her, and the experience isn't worth the effort, they will want some compensation for their time. Just as do photographers who don't feel they would benefit in some way from a session.

Asking such an overgeneralized set of questions doesn't help anyone. "Why don't models ever want to...... pay a photographer to get work done? is fallacious, as it happens all the time. You yourself said models have paid you.

Malchow Photography wrote:
For those that have established themselves, and are seasoned models, that now look down on, or condiscend to people or who belittle others, and have gotten arrogent, spoiled, and snobbish, because they are used to a certain lifestyle or quality of work, etc... because the yet unestablished or up-and-coming photogbrapher has not yet attaind a level that thay have... they have forgotten where they came from, the humble begginnings, etc. it has nothing to do with them paying a photographer it is just the looking down the nose attitude they have about not working with someone to help bolster thier career, give them a hand up, or help them to get more established or better expereinced.

This is the less insulting explanation?

DeBoer Photography wrote:
But it is interesting to note that many of those who DON'T need to pay to "attract" photographers to work with them are more often than not, WILLING to pay if they feel the resulting pictures would be worth it...

Key element: "If they feel the resulting pictures would be worth it".


* (I haven't looked at your portfolio; this is not a comment on the quality of your work.)

Angel Tara wrote:

Oh Jesus, I can not tell you, as a model, how OFFENDED I am at this statement...

I must edit: what about the photographers who expect shit for free?? I have seen them. Their port is decent at best, but they are here in the forums complaining about flakes, or models asking for money, etc.  This is bullshit. I'm sick of it. Put your money or talent where your mouth is, or shut up...to people in general, not just the OP or Oliver.

Well said.


Robert

Malchow Photography wrote:
... pay a photographer to get work done?

Its always "I'll do TFP/TFCD" or "paid work only." I don't get it? Especially from the newbies.

because, then they aren't MODELS, but clients, customers or suckers.

Scott
aka Bodyartist

Angel Tara wrote:

Oh Jesus, I can not tell you, as a model, how OFFENDED I am at this statement...

I must edit: what about the photographers who expect shit for free?? I have seen them. Their port is decent at best, but they are here in the forums complaining about flakes, or models asking for money, etc.  This is bullshit. I'm sick of it. Put your money or talent where your mouth is, or shut up...to people in general, not just the OP or Oliver.

Is this what they mean by ragin cajin?  Glad I never said anything mean to you.
For ninety-nine percent of these postings you can use the addage "put up or shut up".  I'm in your corner.

Angel Tara wrote:

Oh Jesus, I can not tell you, as a model, how OFFENDED I am at this statement...

I must edit: what about the photographers who expect shit for free?? I have seen them. Their port is decent at best, but they are here in the forums complaining about flakes, or models asking for money, etc.  This is bullshit. I'm sick of it. Put your money or talent where your mouth is, or shut up...to people in general, not just the OP or Oliver.

my thoughts exactly....I wouldn't even want a pic of myself for free from some of these wannabies! plus who the F**K compares a model to a stripper.....god I hate amateurs!

Red Sky Photography wrote:
David Moyle wrote :Huh, I photographed other things for years before women. I photographed: Bugs, dead leaves.

I want to see some of those David. lol

Unfortunately, they're on slides, burried in boxes from my last move.

I do have some recent plant, nature, and automobile stuff though.

Malchow Photography wrote:
... pay a photographer to get work done?

Its always "I'll do TFP/TFCD" or "paid work only." I don't get it? Especially from the newbies.

Now granted, there are (a few, very few) very exceptional and naturally talented, models out there, but looks aren't everything.

What do you have to offer? Can you do your own make-up, with photograhy or movie make-up... can you style your hair the way the photog wants it... do you know how to pose without direction... do you make your own wardrobe?

what makes a model so special that he or she think they are all of that, that they don't have to (literally) pay their dues?

If a photographer is consistently turning out work of a commerciasl quality or work suitable for use in mainstream model portfolios, then he/she should probably be paid. Here is an on line mainstream agency as an example, http://www.arlenewilson.com/main.asp. If a photographer's work is not of this level of quality, then why on earth should a model pay him?