James Jackson wrote:
You're correct when you say you don't know much.

I also know five year olds act as such.  You're five.  And I know that not every "discussion" warrants the "last word" being obtained. 

If you spend that much every day. . .day in and day out. . .more power to you.  God knows you're lying though.

Jayne Jones wrote:
If you spend that much every day. . .day in and day out. . .more power to you.  God knows you're lying though.

W. T. F.

You are the rudest person I have met in a long time.

What reason do I have to lie to you?

Why would I care other than to answer your question honestly.

I have not lied, nor have I inflated anything.  My numbers may be a bit on the high side because I only shoot about two days a month, but you can easily extrapolate them to be how ever many days per month you want.

I've shown you the math.  I've shown you the real numbers as you asked.  Now you're going to fucking call me a liar.

FUCK YOU You ugly short internet model trollop.

You know what...fuck all this...why am I trying to help ungrateful bastards like you anyway?

Chuck Holliday wrote:
the day a photog begins blaming a model's TFP no-show towards all of the equipment they invested, that person should pawn their s@#t and get another profession like racquet or cricket or horseback riding. stop whining about spending on equipment and become a better businessman, real businessman dont complain about spending on their equipment and blame a no-show towards it, they just go about their business (and go hard at it too) knowing theyre gonna break even quickly or in due time.

still lmao @these ego-strokers naming dollar for dollar as if it strokes a models ego into thinking theyre big balling, but yet whine about wanting to make every penny off a model they can make, hell models need to make money too, ya know?

Who the fuck blamed anything on anyone?  She asked a direct question...  How much does a day cost.  I gave a direct answer.  It costs me about this much.

It was what I thought was an honest question...so fuck me for being stupid.  It was however a very honest answer.  Do the god damned math yourself...

It's not the model's "Fault" that I invested money in to this career...  It's not the model's "fault" that I only shoot about twice a month.  The only question was how much does it cost...the only answer was it costs this much.

Stop stirring the god damned pot.

Jayne Jones wrote:
If you spend that much every day. . .day in and day out. . .more power to you.  God knows you're lying though.

James Jackson wrote:
W. T. F.

You are the rudest person I have met in a long time.

What reason do I have to lie to you?

Why would I care other than to answer your question honestly.

I have not lied, nor have I inflated anything.  My numbers may be a bit on the high side because I only shoot about two days a month, but you can easily extrapolate them to be how ever many days per month you want.

I've shown you the math.  I've shown you the real numbers as you asked.  Now you're going to fucking call me a liar.

FUCK YOU You ugly short internet model trollop.

You know what...fuck all this...why am I trying to help ungrateful bastards like you anyway?

Like I said.  James =age 5

James Jackson wrote:
Herb Ritts?  Probably complained a bit while he was building his career at night while working days selling furniture in his family's shop...then again his family was very successful and he counted as friends actors such as Richard Gere....so he probably had quite the bit of support from the family...he probably never had to think about a business plan, but he did know how to since his first degree was in economics.

I was the cameraman on 2 interviews with Herb Ritts in the early 90's, the subject of cost was brought up, he simply said the cost was insignificant when you are talking about art.

And for everyone that didn't understand the ORIGINAL QUESTION...
Here is the breakdown.

How much does it ACTUALLY COST YOU to do a TFP shoot. Money out of pocket above and beyond what doing nothing at home would cost you.

This is what it would ACTUALLY COST ME!!!
1. Wake up - Cost is: $0.00
2. Shit, shower - Cost is: $0.00
3. You eat Breakfast - Cost is: $0.00
4. Drive to location - Cost is: $20.00  that's gas/tolls/parking
5. Set up Studio/Location - Cost is: $0.00
6. Shoot Model for 3 Hours - Cost is: $0.00
7. Eat lunch - Cost is: $5.00  sandwich from Deli
8. Shoot Model for an additional 2 hours - Cost: $0.00
9. Clean Up - Cost is: $0.00
10. Eat dinner - Cost is: $10.00  Any decent place in NYC

So in total the cost of my day comes out to: $35.00

This is what the OP was asking!!!

James Jackson wrote:
FUCK YOU You ugly short internet model trollop.

You know what...fuck all this...why am I trying to help ungrateful bastards like you anyway?

Now this is Professionalism at it's Finest!!!  LMAO!!!

DGImages wrote:
My damn receptionist costs money too...she refuses to accept APFP. (APFP...Answer Phones for Prints)

I don't mean to bust your balls but everytime I've called (different times of day)your number, I've been greeted by an operator from an ANSWERING SERVICE.  Not really a receptionist, last I checked they cost like $50 a month!

Hamza wrote:
I don't mean to bust your balls but everytime I've called (different times of day)your number, I've been greeted by an operator from an ANSWERING SERVICE.  Not really a receptionist, last I checked they cost like $50 a month!

No balls were busted in the making of your post...If you feel you have caught me in some sort of evil plot to deceive, you are mistaken.  My post was meant to be a joke, hence the use of the term APFP (answer phones for print). Receptionist or answering service aside, there is always someone there to answer the phone, and it still costs money....and they still wont APFP.  I am forensic photographer during the day, I can't have people calling me at the forensic lab so if you don't approve of my use of the answering service I apologize, but the murder victims need to be photographed and unfortunately they come first.  I am in a unique situation where I need a 24hr phone service.

J Merrill Images wrote:
Jayne, Jayne ... you're a kewl chick but you are seriously missing the point. Trust me when I tell you that EVERY business (at least the ones run by someone with any brains at all) sets prices such that their costs (both fixed and variable) are covered and some profit is made.

If a business owner - photographer, plumber, doctor, whatever - buys a piece of gear or invests in professional training, it costs something and that something has to be paid for by income. There are basically two ways to pay for something - lay out cash or take a loan. In order to pay for something with cash, the business has to make more than the expenses incurred for the individual "operation" (in this case a photo shoot) or there will be no money for the purchase. If a loan is taken, there has to be profit to pay off the note. So, in either scenario, a certain amount of the "purchase price" is targeted toward gear and other things.

All businesses also plan for other costs such as travel, rent, advertising, etc. I think you might do well to hang out at Borders for a couple of hours and thumb through a basic accounting text. You will find many examples of what I am talking about.

This sort of thing is why phototographers sometimes get cranky with models. The assumption that money somehow falls from the sky, the gear is bought and should then be totally disregarded as a factor in the photographer's financial reality is just silly. I don't charge because I have sufficient income from my "real job" to have an expensive hobby, and I choose to wait until I feel my skills are absolutely top notch before taking someone's money, but I understand how many truly professional photographers feel. Imagine what it is like to put in years developing skills and thousands to ten of thousands of dollars in equipment acquisitions, only to have some internet model who has had a web page for all of five minutes, telling you that she must be paid $450.00 per shoot because her dopey internet manager, who doesn't have any more of a clue than she does,  told her that she should ask that. Obviously I am giving an example that is extreme, but you get my point.

In the internet modeling world, the model has a certain amount of investment in clothing, makeup, etc. and may have some other costs. If she is shooting with an amateur with very little gear, they may be about even in terms of what they have put into what is still a hobby for both. Once she begins to shoot with photographers with serious investment in their trade, however, the gap opens rapidly. I think this is particularly true with success on the part of the model because she then enters the world were wardrobe, makeup, etc are supplied. Where she balances out the equation at that point is in her demand as a model. Here value becomes intangible - she returns to parity (and may even exceed the value of the photog) because she has a look that the top payers want. The more they want it, the more they pay.

Models are great and photgraphers are great. Both are even better when they approach the relationship that they have with one another from a realistic viewpoint.

Will you be my friend? It is sooo wonderful to see someone with a level head!!!

Hamza wrote:

I was the cameraman on 2 interviews with Herb Ritts in the early 90's, the subject of cost was brought up, he simply said the cost was insignificant when you are talking about art.

And for everyone that didn't understand the ORIGINAL QUESTION...
Here is the breakdown.

How much does it ACTUALLY COST YOU to do a TFP shoot. Money out of pocket above and beyond what doing nothing at home would cost you.

This is what it would ACTUALLY COST ME!!!
1. Wake up - Cost is: $0.00
2. Shit, shower - Cost is: $0.00
3. You eat Breakfast - Cost is: $0.00
4. Drive to location - Cost is: $20.00  that's gas/tolls/parking
5. Set up Studio/Location - Cost is: $0.00
6. Shoot Model for 3 Hours - Cost is: $0.00
7. Eat lunch - Cost is: $5.00  sandwich from Deli
8. Shoot Model for an additional 2 hours - Cost: $0.00
9. Clean Up - Cost is: $0.00
10. Eat dinner - Cost is: $10.00  Any decent place in NYC

So in total the cost of my day comes out to: $35.00

This is what the OP was asking!!!

Well, that logic certainly kills the models' contention that they have to spend $$$ on clothes, bikini waxing, pedicures, gym memberships, shoes, etc... As I see it, BOTH sides do a lot of investing in preparation for shoot day -- but on shoot day (and ONLY considering that day), the only expenses are more like your example... Of course, you forgot the CD for the model, inks and paper for digital contact sheets (if you provide those like I usually do), etc...

J Merrill Images wrote:
PS: James ... don't you think your response was a little over the top?


<  watches all the models cross out his name as a potential photog to work with  >

Which part?

markcomp wrote:

Alan, can I buy your throwaways?

I'll pay the shipping even!

James Jackson wrote:
FUCK YOU You ugly short internet model trollop.

You know what...fuck all this...why am I trying to help ungrateful bastards like you anyway?

This part.

J Merrill Images wrote:

This part.

Hrm...after she blatantly lured me in to answering a question under false pretenses and proceeding to call me a liar? No...I don't think so.  I take very unkindly to being called a liar.

Should someone decide not to work with me due to my harsh response to being called a liar, or my harsh response to anything else for that matter, that is on them...but...at least they know who I am and how I feel about things right?

J Merrill Images wrote:
MODS PLEASE DELETE .... ACCIDENTAL DUP

They are unable to delete individual posts...the only thing they are able to do is move entire threads to the null zone and make them invisible -or- lock them so that no one is able to edit or post additional comments to them.

Chuck Holliday wrote:
the post definitely has been edited to scrub the comment under the table

The mods are unable to edit posts.  The only person who has the power to edit a post is the person who originally made it.

You had said that *I* was the one that called you something racist, but as you can see Jayne quoted me immediately after I posted, and there is no racist remark...as well you can see I didn't edit my post after I made it quoting you.

Edited:
Erm...I'm wrong... there wasn't a quote of my post where I quoted you.  I can however guarantee that I made no such racial remark.  My ethnic background is very mixed and I would be one of the first to verbally annihilate anyone who made any such remark.

J Merrill Images wrote:
I would not like to be called a liar either but I would make that point clear in a more measured manner because I am a person with some internal controls. An obvious lack of control sends a rather huge message to people and it is not one which lends it self to making new friends.

But, as you say, sometimes the result of the message is on the sender. Peace.

Yeah...sorry...I've never been good at that whole "winning friends and influencing people" thing.  I guess I just subscribe to a more rigorous personal ethic and self honesty.  Hopefully that garners me some points as far as people wanting to work with me, but even if it doesn't I'm not the type to change my words to appease someone else.

FabioTovar wrote:
..I just want to thank the original poster (who is a model) for asking this question. Thank you for trying to understand and learn about our side. You are one of the few who seems to care about our expenses.
For that I thank you.

Fabio, if you'll read through the thread you'll see that the whole reason for my harsh reaction was because the model who started this thread (the OP) did in fact not start it to try to learn or care about our expenses.  In point of fact she lured several photographers...including myself...in to answering the question honestly in an effort to discredit us.  If you read through, you'll see she already had her conclusions drawn and made before she started the thread (as most people do) and when an honest set of answers was presented she thanked us, and then turned around and slapped us in the face by calling us liars and saying we didn't know what we were talking about.

Chuck Holliday wrote:
this was the thread where i was called something racist about a couple of weeks ago and the mod actually threatened to ban me for mentioning it...

I find this extremely difficult to believe.  No moderator would threaten to ban you for mentioning someone else's racist comments (which may or may not have ever existed).

Chuck Holliday wrote:
i'm for certain personal attacks are not in my forte

I sincerely apologize; I was thinking of somone else.

However, accusing the moderators of unfair practices without any evidence is uncool at best.

By the way, what is the M and B word?

James Jackson wrote:

Fabio, if you'll read through the thread you'll see that the whole reason for my harsh reaction was because the model who started this thread (the OP) did in fact not start it to try to learn or care about our expenses.  In point of fact she lured several photographers...including myself...in to answering the question honestly in an effort to discredit us.  If you read through, you'll see she already had her conclusions drawn and made before she started the thread (as most people do) and when an honest set of answers was presented she thanked us, and then turned around and slapped us in the face by calling us liars and saying we didn't know what we were talking about.

what?!
well F her then!
thats all i gotta say about that.

Brian Diaz wrote:

I sincerely apologize; I was thinking of somone else.

However, accusing the moderators of unfair practices without any evidence is uncool at best.

By the way, what is the M and B word?

Chuck...do you mean "moron" and "bitch"?

Moron is not a racial epithet...it is a disused clinical term for someone of mild mental retardation...someone just below normal intelligence level.  It is modernly used as an insulting term meaning about the same thing.

Bitch is also an insult but not racial in any way shape or form.

I'm probably one of the only people on the forums who doesn't mind the use of "curse words"...they are after all just words which originally meant one thing, and have been used over and over again with a mean tone behind them causing us to modernly interpret them as insults.  I reserve the real insults like trollop for people I truly dislike.

Hakan wrote:
So called photographers who talk about costs for their equipment and their time are just wanna-bees. Photography is a passion, you don't talk about how much you are investing for it. What the model pays for is the photographer's vision and his/her ability to make the model look great . Not the quality or quantity of their equipment.

Stay away from the hobbyists, shoot with the real photogs.

Spoken like someone who makes money from it. and forgot what its like to invest a lot of money with no financial return.  Good job everyone is proud of you.  Now for the rest of us who love what we do but aren't made of gold or have $$$$$$ in the account....it's an issue you shouldn't look down upon you pompous ass.

Hakan wrote:
So called photographers who talk about costs for their equipment and their time are just wanna-bees. Photography is a passion, you don't talk about how much you are investing for it. What the model pays for is the photographer's vision and his/her ability to make the model look great . Not the quality or quantity of their equipment.

Photography is only a passion for me because I can afford it to be a passion only. If it were truly a business in my case, I would use good business sense and make sure that it turned a profit. The pros here who have managed to run their photography businesses well enough to pay for their gear and time, while paying the bills at home and putting a buck or two away for retirement, are the ones to emulate. You can be an "ar-teest" if you want but I don't think GMAC or your mortgage company is going to forgive your monthly payments because you are a passionate photographer.

FabioTovar wrote:
Spoken like someone who makes money from it. and forgot what its like to invest a lot of money with no financial return.  Good job everyone is proud of you.  Now for the rest of us who love what we do but aren't made of gold or have $$$$$$ in the account....it's an issue you shouldn't look down upon you pompous ass.

You don't get it buddy. I expect to be paid for my shoots as well but not because I have the equipment but because I have the eye and the talent. Studios let me shoot and use their equipment because I can produce images that they like and those images bring more customers to them. If you gonna brag to a model about getting paid , and talk about your expenses , you shouldn't be in this business. You tell them your price and they either accept it or decline it, but no need to do word games to get them shoot with you. Bottom line, if you are talented you'll make money. If you are not making any maybe you are not cut for it, think about that.

U240Robert wrote:
Wow, seems like alot of folks on mayhem have a ton of
money invested in their equipment.
Now if only some would start posting a few worldly images
to justify their investments. As far as expenses, to me it
doesn't matter. Whether I should models or not, I would still own
my equipment because I love photography.


Robert

I don't want to repeat myself but again so called great images and being succesful in this business have nothing to do how much you invest in photography. It's about ,if you got the eye to catch those great images . I have friends who constantly shoot for fashion magazines with a $900 Sony DSC-R1 for example. It's a 10mp camera with a great lens. It's not a lot money to invest isn't it and if you have the talent you can create great images with it. But if I have given you a $20,000 Hassy and you don't have the eye , maybe my little niece's snapshots would look even better.