Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
I buy a new disposable camera for every shoot.  Normally it is a Canon 20d or a Nikon D70.  They are usually use once and throw away.

Photographers have extensive costs to be in this business.  I have tens of thousands of dollars invested in equipment, props and studio gear.

However, that is part of the cost of being a professional.

Alan, can I buy your throwaways?

John Pringle wrote:
Professionals shoots can go from $450-2500 per day. These are news/editorial images for the most part to business annual reports.
Magazine shoots for fashion images can go from $1500-25,000+ expenses.
Commercial product shots can be from 100K+
Most prices consider day rates, expenses and usage rights.

so when you get a GOOD Photographer/Stylist/MUA team with a great TFCD shoot, Please apPreciate...

I absolutely appreciate anyone that has skills that I lack.  That's not an issue for me.  I respect photogs highly.

I guess what I'm not getting is why the "investment" costs (i.e. school, cameras, lenses, studio rent, lighting lessons-school, etc.) are spoken of like they repeat themselves as an "out of pocket" expense every time a photog has a shoot.  That's all I'm asking about.

I weigh 234 pounds.  If I "invest" $50/month (total of $600) to join Jenny Craig and lose weight and spend $35K on surgery to make me 5'10". .  .those are "one time" costs aren't they?  Why are not the training and equipment necessary to be a successful photog (as opposed to just a GWC) also "one time" costs?

I totally understand that a photog may "charge" an ad agency $40K for a shoot or whatever, but bottom line. . .it didn't cost $40K to "shoot" did it???  That's what I'm asking.  Are you charging for talent or for "expenses" or are expenses talent????

Jayne Jones wrote:
Exactly how much does a photo shoot cost?

For example. . .
If I hire a MUA, do my own hair and bring my own wardrobe. . .what's left?  The camera and lenses and digital method of storage right?  Ok. . .there are also lights and sets and whatnot (assuming you are shooting inside a studio).  Ok. 

What I don't get is. . .I keep reading these posts where photogs are saying that their expenses so far outweigh the model's.  More specifically the talk of camera body and lenses in particular being so expensive.  So. . .is it necessary to buy a new lens each time you have a shoot?  I thought that was pretty much a one time investment.  Hence my asking this question.

I get the whole. . .click = picture and finished product = time for retouching and downloading and whatnot.  But can someone purdy please walk me through this process?  Say you take 250 shots. . .on average. . .how much time will it take to produce say 50 good images?  And how much would that really cost you?  Line by line por favor.  What's all involved?  I really want to understand this.

Digital method of storage?  Vas ist das?

:::snicker:::



If a photographer makes you feel like your ultimate value and contribution to the shoot as a model is simply the total cost of your make-up, hair and clothing...

...then he/she doesn't really understand modeling.

If you feel like the photographer's ultimate value and contribution to the shoot is simply the initial cost of his camera body, lenses, method of capture (digital or film), and lights...

...then you don't really understand photography...

DeBoer Photography wrote:
If they produce better work than what you can achieve on your own, then zip up and/or shell out $$$.

Regards,

Denoy

P.S.

BTW, why do you need 50 "good" images?

P.P.S.

If you TRULY want to understand this, drop by the local bookstore and pick up some books on becoming a professional photographer.

Wow. . .sore spot for some huh?

Well. . .contrary to popular, I don't have a problem paying.  I posted this for my benefit as well as other models like me who just don't have a clue about the process.  It's called empathy. . .I think.

As for the 50 "good" images. . .that was just a number that was thrown out there.  I thought that as a photog if you take 250 shots of a model on a shoot. . .50 images was a good number.  I guess that's a tad out of your expectations range.  I dunno.

As for going by the bookstore. . .it is so much better to mentor.  Books can't explain it all.  How to books lack passion.

Jay Bowman wrote:
Digital method of storage?  Vas ist das?

:::snicker:::



If a photographer makes you feel like your ultimate value and contribution to the shoot as a model is simply the total cost of your make-up, hair and clothing...

...then he/she doesn't really understand modeling.

If you feel like the photographer's ultimate value and contribution to the shoot is simply the initial cost of his camera body, lenses, method of capture (digital or film), and lights...

...the you don't really understand photography...

Hence the post.

UnoMundo Photography wrote:
cameras and lenses   
computers and backup 
props and lighting 
lease                       
taxes and insurance(fire, theft, vandalism,etc etc etc )
CAM charges ; you session is not even covering my CAM charges.

example one lens
Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L USM AutoFocus Telephoto Lens - $1,449.95
one light
Arri Softbank II Tungsten Fresnel & Quartz Open Face Lighting Kit with 4 Lights, Bulbs and Accessories, 2,950 Watts, 120 Volts AC.     $2,598.95

You see our expenses add up real quickly!
my car mechanic has probably $20,000 in tools and supplies at his shop; you think I tell him - well you only took 15 mins to fix my car so I should pay $20

nest you go to your photog; ask him how much his equipemnt costs

With shopping lists like that for every shoot. . .I don't see how a profit is made.

Jayne Jones wrote:

With shopping lists like that for every shoot. . .I don't see how a profit is made.

It's not necessarily for every shoot, but if you want to see a "per shoot" rate, you'd want to take the total of the equipment AND time used (given a specific rate per type of shoot), and divide it by the number of shoots.

That will show you where your break even point is, the MINIMUM it would cost you to do a particular shoot.

VRG Photography wrote:
You're paying for the photographer's experience, expertise, AND time, for the most part, if you want to get technical.

This is no different than any other professional job/career. Where you already have your car paid off, and you have your degree in hand, along with a laptop that's paid for, aside from the occasional class(es) that you take to keep your skills sharp, you're paying for that photographer's TIME and EXPERTISE.

The equipment will eventually be paid for, but there's always something new, and there's always something that's out there that will improve the quality of their work, be it classes or equipment.

A client is paying for ALL those things in a photographer, just like they'd be paying me to do project management work.

The reason you have various prices and rates from photographers is because there are different levels of expertise, as well as equipment and resources to complete the job you are wanting them to do.

You want a job done right, you're going to pay for it. How much you pay is usually directly related to that person's level of expertise.

In other words, the COST of a shoot depends on how much the photographer feels they are worth to the client that day. Whether they actually CHARGE the client that amount, is another topic in itself.

*sighs*  Thank you!  That makes sense to me.  Perfect sense to me.  To say that lenses are an expense of a photo shoot. . .unless it was bought THAT day for THAT shoot just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  I kind of thought it was something necessary to perform the job asked.  Kind of like me having a head/face/eyes or whatever if I want to be a "live" model.

MartinCoatesIV wrote:
Models at most need to stop by the thrift store every now and then or go to mary kay party.

Wow you don't understand modeling do you?!!?

VRG Photography wrote:

It's not necessarily for every shoot, but if you want to see a "per shoot" rate, you'd want to take the total of the equipment AND time used (given a specific rate per type of shoot), and divide it by the number of shoots.

That will show you where your break even point is, the MINIMUM it would cost you to do a particular shoot.

That helps a lot.  That makes sense.

James Jackson wrote:
I know I've posted this a couple of times, but usually in response to photographers asking how much to charge...  I'll try to remember everything for you, but sometimes I forget and leave out a bit on the costs of a photographer.

Camera - Pro level Canon 5D or 1Ds MKII
~$3,000 (with lens, filters, media, and accessories such as a tripod and flash unit)
            Only guaranteed to work for ~100,000 shutter actuations (that's clicks).  On the average test shoot I hit the shutter between 500-700 times.  So I use between 1/2 - 1% of my camera's life each shoot.  So that's $15 - $21 of pure depreciation per shoot.

Studio - Shared space in major city
~$200/month (that's really cheap, and done by sharing the space with other photographers)
             I shoot twice per month on average.  So $100 per shoot for studio space
-OR-
Location - Scouted spot in city or suburbs
~Free (may cost if location charges and a good excuse can't be made)
             The free location doesn't include the hours and hours spent wandering the city and suburbs surrounding my house and studio to find those locations though...and each one can only be really effectively used once...some valuable locations need to be saved for when their multiple looks could be used on money making shoots etc...  I spend about 10 hours per month scouting locations...I can't estimate the charge for this one...it's a lot of time and gas and pain in the rear.  SO let's just assume it's worth at least $100/shoot

Photo editing computer - really need something near the latest and greatest to do efficient photo editing with larger and larger files
~$3000
             This should last me ~4 years (on the outside) before I have to completely replace it with the next latest and greatest. So $31.25/shoot

Camera bag - Pro level bag...good padding...ergonomically correct for the large amount of equipment I carry
~$160 (also on the inexpensive side since I bought it from an Australian company when the exchange rates were heavily in our favor)
            Should last about 5 years.  2 shoots/month * 12 months a year * 5 years = 120 uses....  That's $1.33/shoot

Assorted photography supplies - Foam core, Gaf tape, Seamless paper, etc
~$10/shoot

Photo assistant
~$150/shoot

Some costs are equal model - photographer but do figure in to how much it costs a photographer to shoot:

Vehicle - Car or truck
~$20,000
            Should last about 10 years or 150,000 miles.  It's 15 miles from the studio to my house.  So, $2/shoot.

Gas and tolls
~$8 /shoot

---------------

Quick sub total - $167.58 for just the basics... $317.58 if you add the assistant

---------------

Some things are things that I have always included and will probably always do even if they may seem unnecessary.

Shoot snacks
~$10 /shoot

Shoot meal for model(s) and crew - one meal time usually goes by during a shoot
~$70 /shoot

Model travel expenses - if she's traveling far enough to have a large expense
~$50 /shoot

Makeup Artist
~$75 /shoot

Editing time - color correcting and retouching photos
~2 days (16 hours)/shoot
          At a normal pay rate for a photo retoucher that is $320...let's just say it takes me out of the game for two days and costs me more than that, but I'll let it go at $320

CD(s)
~$1 ea
        Model, MUA, Stylist, and I each need one...if not two... $4-$8/shoot...let's just say $4

==================

I'm sure there is other stuff, but let's just draw the line there because I'm getting depressed.

So about $846.58 for a typical TFP shoot in cost... $696.58 without the photo assistant.

Thanks for the honesty and thoroughness.  I appreciate you for that!

MartinCoatesIV wrote:
Models at most need to stop by the thrift store every now and then or go to mary kay party.

benson wrote:
Wow you don't understand modeling do you?!!?

Thanks baby.  Want to share the MUA side of things???

MartinCoatesIV wrote:
camera = intial investment? HA!

Try a yearly or every other year investment.

I have yet to do a shoot i didnt need to buy a new peice of equipment for, how about studio rent. Take the price of a camera divide by life of the camera theres a monthly cost. Photographers are constant having to get new and expensive equipment. Models at most need to stop by the thrift store every now and then or go to mary kay party. I'm only semi-pro which is another way of saying the money I've made off of doing shoot has yet to break even with what I've spent on equipment.


Martin IV

www.martincoatesiv.com

I'm sorry to hear that you've yet to make a full return on your investment Martin, but I don't know too many models that don't bring their own wardrobe to a shoot. . .and their own MUA for that matter.

Not every model does TFP.  An MUA that I contacted charges $125/look minimum of two looks.  I don't see the point in wearing the same outfit from shoot to shoot (mind you I've only had one thus far) and my last shoot, I spent about $225 on wardrobe.  I paid my photog as well. . .he gave me a discount, but I offered to pay him.  That one shoot cost me more than I normally would spend in six months (yeah. . .I'm cheap).  I didn't mind it one bit though b/c I had fun, I had a good photog, and a damn good MUA.  I didn't mind paying for their talent/time and expertise.  Probably didn't spend as much as my photog "overall" but I know I wasn't the only one he shot that day.  He was the only photog I hired that day though.  :p

Michael Reyes wrote:
My college roommate wanted to be a limo driver. I should call him and ask, "after you buy your limo, what kind of expenses do you really have?"

Hardyharhar!
Thanks.  It was just a question.

Jayne Jones wrote:

*sighs*  Thank you!  That makes sense to me.  Perfect sense to me.  To say that lenses are an expense of a photo shoot. . .unless it was bought THAT day for THAT shoot just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  I kind of thought it was something necessary to perform the job asked.  Kind of like me having a head/face/eyes or whatever if I want to be a "live" model.

Technically, it is an expense, regardless of whether you actually USE it for that shoot.

I use a laptop to take care of my photography, and it has a multitude of applications on it. If someone's wanting me to do a job, then I'll use the laptop (along with other things) to complete the task. Now, while MS Word doesn't necessarily help me with THAT shoot at THAT time, it's a necessity.

It's no different than that nice DVD player you may buy. It has a lot of features, you're paying for it all, but may only use 3 out of 30 features on it. Thing is, if you WANT or NEED to, you can.

That's the same with a photographer's equipment. They have and/or purchase it because they will need it. Sometimes they buy it for a specific shoot and not use it, other times they will use that piece of equipment multiple times in a shoot(s).

benson wrote:
Sounds reasonable to me......With these few exceptions......
your math is flawed......you pay 200$ per month 30 days in a month = $6.67 per day......It isn't any ones responsibility if you only use your studio 2 times per month but yours.

Your makeup expires right?  It's only good for a certain amount of time no matter how much of the tube you use.  If you shoot 10 times with a $25 tube of something before it expires, it cost you $2.50/shoot  If you shoot twice before it expired, it cost you $12.50/shoot.

Take business 101

This section is called overhead...and it is broken down by number of times used, not by day.

benson wrote:
One assumes that you use your time to find locations for more than one shoot and that you may shoot more than one model per loaction......Lets say this is actually costing $10 per shoot based on uses per model per shoot and including repeat use of location.

No, one doesn't assume I use the location any more than once...

"The free location doesn't include the hours and hours spent wandering the city and suburbs surrounding my house and studio to find those locations though...and each one can only be really effectively used once..."

benson wrote:
$75 for an MUA....Your raping the MUA! add $500!

Don't make me get uppity... I have worked for major catalog clients where the MUA gets less than $300 for the day...why would I pay a newbie MUA more than someone with 10 years experience who knows exactly how to do the makeup I need done.

I am talking about a TFP shoot where I give the MUA pics for their portfolio...they're lucky if they get $75 from me...

benson wrote:
Are you using this only for photo editing?......Subtract money for every use other than photo editing.......

Uh...no...you don't subtract money for any other use than photo editing...  See business 101 again...  If I weren't doing photo editing on the machine I would not need such an expensive machine and nor would I need to replace it so often.

Just for your edification though, I do not use my photo editing computer for anything other than Photo editing, email, and business documentation....the fun stuff machine is over 8 years old.

Jayne Jones wrote:
Thanks baby.  Want to share the MUA side of things???

gods the list would be huge

for instance I have khol sticks in 120 colors each cost about 12$

that's 1440$ for just my pencil eyeliners.......Not unusual to use an entire stick in a multi model shoot.....

my brushes cost a good 600$ I replace at least half of them each year.....


I have 10K worth of austrian crystals......(I know a lil excessive but I like shiney stuff)....I use these more than you would believe......

an MUA probably has the most obvious re-occuring expenses....

As IF we'd use Mary Kay!

I have all of these colors at 13.50$ a pop......

http://www.maccosmetics.com/templates/p … D=PROD1503

that's about 2427.57$ including taxes we wont mention shipping costs

and that is about 5% of my make up kit!

I dont think any one in this industry works with zero expenses......Models .....I am telling you JUST THE time commitment per week to keep those bodies......30 hours?

30 hours x 17.50$  per hour training wage = 525$ divided by 2 shoots per week = 262.57$ worth of training wages per shoot!

James Jackson wrote:

benson wrote:
Sounds reasonable to me......With these few exceptions......
your math is flawed......you pay 200$ per month 30 days in a month = $6.67 per day......It isn't any ones responsibility if you only use your studio 2 times per month but yours.

Your makeup expires right?  It's only good for a certain amount of time no matter how much of the tube you use.  If you shoot 10 times with a $25 tube of something before it expires, it cost you $2.50/shoot  If you shoot twice before it expired, it cost you $12.50/shoot.

Take business 101

This section is called overhead...and it is broken down by number of times used, not by day.

benson wrote:
One assumes that you use your time to find locations for more than one shoot and that you may shoot more than one model per loaction......Lets say this is actually costing $10 per shoot based on uses per model per shoot and including repeat use of location.

No, one doesn't assume I use the location any more than once...

"The free location doesn't include the hours and hours spent wandering the city and suburbs surrounding my house and studio to find those locations though...and each one can only be really effectively used once..."

benson wrote:
$75 for an MUA....Your raping the MUA! add $500!

Don't make me get uppity... I have worked for major catalog clients where the MUA gets less than $300 for the day...why would I pay a newbie MUA more than someone with 10 years experience who knows exactly how to do the makeup I need done.

I am talking about a TFP shoot where I give the MUA pics for their portfolio...they're lucky if they get $75 from me...


Uh...no...you don't subtract money for any other use than photo editing...  See business 101 again...  If I weren't doing photo editing on the machine I would not need such an expensive machine and nor would I need to replace it so often.

Just for your edification though, I do not use my photo editing computer for anything other than Photo editing, email, and business documentation....the fun stuff machine is over 8 years old.

I did take business 101....check my URL buddy!

I also understand falsely inflated and padded numbers......


I didn't realize that you were using "newbie", MUAs good on you.....Oh and editorial MUAs and Fashion MUAs make very different wages.......

benson wrote:
I did take business 101....check my URL buddy!

I also understand falsely inflated and padded numbers......

Well...my my...look who's all smart and stuff.

Good luck...Hope you can figure out a way to recoup your overhead when you don't figure out what it is per shoot

James Jackson wrote:

Well...my my...look who's all smart and stuff.

Good luck...Hope you can figure out a way to recoup your overhead when you don't figure out what it is per shoot

ahhhhhhhh I see you're from PA....that explains so much!

Perhaps you need to better utilize your resources to maximize your profits?

for instance if you pay 200$ per month for studio space but only use it twice sublet it to get your overhead down....At 25$ per day rental in 8 rentals you can recoup your costs!......Business 101

benson wrote:
I did take business 101....check my URL buddy!

I also understand falsely inflated and padded numbers......

James Jackson wrote:
Well...my my...look who's all smart and stuff.

Good luck...Hope you can figure out a way to recoup your overhead when you don't figure out what it is per shoot

Hey!  The only one that gets to talk to my future ex-husband like that is . . .well. . .his mom! 

To settle this like distinguished gents. . .duel at sunrise.

Jayne Jones wrote:

benson wrote:
I did take business 101....check my URL buddy!

I also understand falsely inflated and padded numbers......

Hey!  The only one that gets to talk to my future ex-husband like that is . . .well. . .his mom! 

To settle this like distinguished gents. . .duel at sunrise.

You like big strong blue bearded bi men?

RAWR momma!

James Jackson wrote:
Well...my my...look who's all smart and stuff.

Good luck...Hope you can figure out a way to recoup your overhead when you don't figure out what it is per shoot

benson wrote:
ahhhhhhhh I see you're from PA....that explains so much!

Perhaps you need to better utilize your resources to maximize your profits?

for instance if you pay 200$ per month for studio space but only use it twice sublet it to get your overhead down....At 25$ per day rental in 8 rentals you can recoup your costs!......Business 101

No need to prove how smart you are.  Please. . .be nice pookie.

Jayne Jones wrote:

James Jackson wrote:
Well...my my...look who's all smart and stuff.

Good luck...Hope you can figure out a way to recoup your overhead when you don't figure out what it is per shoot

No need to prove how smart you are.  Please. . .be nice pookie.

this is nice.....My claws are still sheathed!

benson wrote:
I did take business 101....check my URL buddy!

I also understand falsely inflated and padded numbers......

Jayne Jones wrote:
Hey!  The only one that gets to talk to my future ex-husband like that is . . .well. . .his mom! 

To settle this like distinguished gents. . .duel at sunrise.

benson wrote:
You like big strong blue bearded bi men?

RAWR momma!

Who doesn't???  Blue just so happens to be my favorite colour.

benson wrote:

this is nice.....My claws are still sheathed!

Mine too... :\

Not sure when not nice started.


Anyway... I share the space already...please read...that's how the space only costs $200/month.

I also rent the space out for a very low day rate...  I'm quite aware how to make it cost nothing for me, I'm talking about a typical photographer's costs...say...one of the guys who shares the space with me, but isn't the one organizing it?  One who pays $200/month, but doesn't have the ability to recoup cost by renting it out for a day rate?  One who only shoots twice a month or so?

$100/shoot for a studio space is very low...I don't know how you could get it cheaper.