Ian Weintraub wrote:
I'm not complaining about tfp/tfcd.  I'm not whining.  All I'm saying is that it is frustrating and, if the photographer has talent and put care and money into being prepared for a shoot, it's definitely a better deal for the model.  Again, I think the OP was just venting a general feeling of frustration and it's not about him being too cheap to send a cd or anything like that.

I'm confident that you are 110% correct Ian.  Which is why I offered him his woobie.  *smile*

FabioTovar wrote:
...please make an effort to COME and pick up YOUR FREE DISK. or make arrangements for COD postal service.  >>>>>anything would be appreciated especially since all you did was show up pose and leave..............

Do what I did for one instance. Assuming you have your own website, put the images that you would've put onto a CD, onto a ZIP file and make it available for her to download. If the zip file is huge, break it apart into smaller and seperate ZIP files. Sometimes, the little things like a CD can turn into an energy vampire. Use your ingenuity to seek alternatives. The ZIP file is one example.

I feel your pain though and I understand where you're coming from. Most of the models you'll encounter in the TFP/CD world will, 9 times out of 10, have at most, 2 to 4, if not just one of the images up on their online profile in MySpace, OMP, or another site. Kinda makes a person think, "Do I really need to put an effort into making a CD then?" And, I actually understand the ilogic when you take into consideration that these people have access to current gen computers with CD burner and Internet connection. On this site, they could simply download any number of the images you shot of them from your profile and then re-upload to their profile. It's the same content that would've been on the CD anyway. Right? I personally don't mind if a model I worked with takes her images from my port and shows them on her port, or she e-mails to ask for a copy for her online port.

If I were you though, I'd just stop doing TF-whatever, because it looks like you've reached a stage in your mind where you should start charging for your time.

And, to some of the models here calling dood, a "cheapskate". Check this out, some of you (you know who you are), have day jobs, go out and spend money for a nice new set of clothes to wear at a shoot, get a CD, don't EVEn go back to the photographer to pay for prints and take the CD to a Walgreens, or Longs or CostCo and pay a freaking kiosk for prints. Talk about being a cheapskate.

Guess what? The Walgreens' in my county are starting to adopt a policy about doing this for so called models and they won't let you use their services for re-printing copyrighted works from a Photographer. Soon, Longs and CostCo will adopt this policy too. Think about that.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

It's fine to vent, but the fact is all the models I know go through a similar set of processes in what they do, which is why I give them the respect and consideration that I would any other artist I would collaborate with.  My point is that if the OP dosen't feel that tfp/cd is a fair and balanced situation, he shouldn't do it...The idea that someone in the situation is "getting it for free" is indicative of that feeling.

yes, i agree.  if he feels the deal is not fair, he shouldn't do it.  we all make our own beds and we should shut up and lay in them.  I absolutely have respect and admiration for my models.  I love what they do and love what I get out of the tfp process.  Still, at times, it's frustrating.  Things like talking for weeks with a model about wardrobe only to have her show up to a shoot with a bag full of mismatched items that either don't fit well, are wrinkled and stained or something to that effect... in the mean time, i've set all my lighting, made sure my equipment is ready to go, adjusted the studio temp. etc...
it's fine though for me...  I wouldn't do it if i didn't feel it was worth while.

i M a g e ye wrote:
By the looks of some of these models you know damn well they're not in the GYM!...And the only exercise they get is working up a sweat at the club after you had a MUA make them look better than before and a hair stylist who fixed-up the doo; Pompous beggars.

If your opinion of models is so LOW why do you shoot them at all?

"Pompous beggars"

Um they are not begging they are asking to be given their part of the TRADE.....

TRADE: An exchange of one thing for another./ per Webster's Dictionary

Nemi wrote:

GAJHJHADFOG ISN'T THIS SHIT COMMON SENSE? Why oh fucking WHY does it need to be explained again and again and again and again.....

Your class (Asians would say "face") is showing. No need to use the four letter words here. But your point is good.

Bob4friends wrote:

THATS where your wrong.....I know what he's getting at, and its a gripe that many share ( perhaps not YOU ), its not just the scouting location, time spent getting the model to agree ( like pulling teeth sometimes ), getting props together, lining up MUA, etc., etc., etc....The list is sooooooo long of things to do FREE, why can't she at LEAST make a trip to pick up the damn thing !!

Of course she's ( actress ) putting in time too....countless things a woman does to primp......but nothing NEAR what the director & producer ( photog ) has to do.

really all a photographer does is point a camera and push a button.....they have probably rooked a makeup artist into working for free too.....

Make Up artists have the hardest job and are really soley responsible for the final image....I mean the model just stands there and the photographer just stands and shoots.....the poor MUA has to paint the face make the look style the hair......

Now you see I think any of us could say that we work the hardest on set....in fact it is a gestalt....we all work hard.....If it is a trade COME ON WITH THE FUCKING CD already.......I am not asking anyone to supply my make up and brushes am I?


I think that in the modern age you bastards are luck that people will work for a CD.....I remember when you actually had to ....GASP....supply prints....Now that was a whole lot more expensive and time consuming that mailing a damned CD huh?

i M a g e ye wrote:

By the looks of some of these models you know damn well they're not in the GYM!...And the only exercise they get is working up a sweat at the club after you had a MUA make them look better than before and a hair stylist who fixed-up the doo; Pompous beggars.

i M a g e ye,

Perhaps you are spending efforts looking through the wrong kind of models and if you are clearly out of their league why bother looking at them anyway?

Of course there are amatures models here, as there are amature photographers as well.
They will enjoy their moment in the spoitlight experiencing something new and interesting and disappear before you know it so don't worry about it.

Fabior Tovar works with really beautiful models as do you so obviously the models in question are have a.......
..... " body, timely thing to maintain......a gym membership is not free......Special Healthy foods are more expensive than Mc Donalds......Maybe she pays a trainer?........Her hairstylist....manicure and pedicure...Drive time to the shoot...gas and wear and tear on her car......."

Wild Horse Photography wrote:
Do what I did for one instance. Assuming you have your own website, put the images that you would've put onto a CD, onto a ZIP file and make it available for her to download. If the zip file is huge, break it apart into smaller and seperate ZIP files. Sometimes, the little things like a CD can turn into an energy vampire. Use your ingenuity to seek alternatives. The ZIP file is one example.

I feel your pain though and I understand where you're coming from. Most of the models you'll encounter in the TFP/CD world will, 9 times out of 10, have at most, 2 to 4, if not just one of the images up on their online profile in MySpace, omp, or another site. Kinda makes a person think, "Do I really need to put an effort into making a CD then?" And, I actually understand the ilogic when you take into consideration that these people have access to current gen computers with CD burner and Internet connection. On this site, they could simply download any number of the images you shot of them from your profile and then re-upload to their profile. It's the same content that would've been on the CD anyway. Right? I personally don't mind if a model I worked with takes her images from my port and shows them on her port, or she e-mails to ask for a copy for her online port.

If I were you though, I'd just stop doing TF-whatever, because it looks like you've reached a stage in your mind where you should start charging for your time.

And, to some of the models here calling dood, a "cheapskate". Check this out, some of you (you know who you are), have day jobs, go out and spend money for a nice new set of clothes to wear at a shoot, get a CD, don't EVEn go back to the photographer to pay for prints and take the CD to a Walgreens, or Longs or CostCo and pay a freaking kiosk for prints. Talk about being a cheapskate.

Guess what? The Walgreens' in my county are starting to adopt a policy about doing this for so called models and they won't let you use their services for re-printing copyrighted works from a Photographer. Soon, Longs and CostCo will adopt this policy too. Think about that.

I have several issues with this.....First off any image that is posted on this site is more than likely not of a printable grade....so saving an image from one port to the next is fine for a web portfolio....but the last time I checked Agencies still want to see a BOOK....something that they can hold in their hands.....You do remember books yes?

Does teh photographer not get to show the pictures over and over as many times as he wants to?.....Print as many copies as he likes?......Sell them and make money off of them if he wants to?.....Why then should the model have to pay hhim to PRINT an image when she can do it at a Walgreens or Target......They traded.....TRADE......her body for his images.......


I do agree that FTPing images is a good way to go about this.......a CD is not really needed....BUT I would expect full sized full resolution images to be FTPed to a server.......

I am STILL waiting for some prints from TFP from years ago........Please don't act like you are doing any one a favor by actually following through on supplying your end of the TRADE

.: Klaudia :. wrote:
Perhaps you are spending efforts looking through the wrong kind of models and if you are clearly out of their league why bother looking at them anyway?

Of course there are amatures models here, as there are amature photographers as well.
They will enjoy their moment in the spoitlight experiencing something new and interesting and disappear before you know it so don't worry about it.

Fabior Tovar works with really beautiful models as do you so obviously the models in question are have a.......
..... " body, timely thing to maintain......a gym membership is not free......Special Healthy foods are more expensive than Mc Donalds......Maybe she pays a trainer?........Her hairstylist....manicure and pedicure...Drive time to the shoot...gas and wear and tear on her car......."

Thank You saved me the time to post that myself.......

exactly!

Besides being Petty as Hell..........this is a purely one sided point of view......Did you ever think about the models expenses?........That body is a timely thing to maintain......a gym membership is not free......Special Healthy foods are more expensive than Mc Donalds......Maybe she pays a trainer?........Her hairstylist....manicure and pedicure...Drive time to the shoot...gas and wear and tear on her car.......Stop your self absorbed whining and suck it up......HOME DEPOT CAN SUPPLY YOU WITH WOOD, NAILS AND A HAMMER TO ALLOW YOU TO BUILD A BRIDGE TO GET OVER THIS.

just brilliant....and so true

FabioTovar wrote:
We recently had a great shoot. im glad you approached me/i approached you. the pictures came out great and im happy with the shots for my portfolio. the only reason why i would shoot for free...

Many models here intend to earn money doing it.  While it's true that there is a circular culture of photographers who make $$$ mostly from models and models who make $$$ from photographers, the real money is to be earned from the Third-Party Clients.

So, let's see.  If...

-you didn't charge $$$ to shoot but got portfolio enhancing shots...
-the model didn't charge $$$ to model but got portfolio enhancing shots...

Then nobody worked for free.  You didn't shoot for free.  The model didn't model for free.  You got paid in prints.  Just like the model did...

As long as you continue to view it as "I'm working for free!" you'll never be satisfied when when you do a trade-off.  Despite the fact that you end up with the same end product as everyone else involved.  With a trade-off, the images that you get should be worth just as much as money to you, or else don't bother doing it.

zalllon wrote:
If all the details get worked out on the "signed" release before the shoot, isn't all of this moot?

That's what I'm screaming.  All those photographers laughing at me for having a release and saying other people should... then they go and complain when something goes wrong and they have nothing to back it up.

Nemi wrote:
GAJHJHADFOG

I just wanted to say that this is my new favorite word evrah.  It makes me want to dance.

Vito wrote:
You speak for yourself and may 2 others. This is petty and cheap. $3 to mail the cd is nothing

It cost me less then that, but the postoffice keeps losing my stuff,so I prefer to run the CD to the model if after an attempt to mail, it gets lost.

I see waht this guy is saying, But on the other hand, its not very professional.  While a LOT of models don't appreciate what the phpotogrpaher has in it, being that cheap in public is rude..


One thing to keepin mind as a model( which some cocky models forget)once you've DONE the shoot, Yuu're DONE. We've ( the photogrpaher) already invested the SAME amount of time as you, incurred more costs(esp if we're paying your travel), and will have MORE time  and often costs, in touching up, processing and getting your stuff to you.


It' more important with a  small time person that there be a mutual respect.  You're large companies, you are another face among many.  To a hobbiest, though,esp if you are thier first model,You ARE REPRESENTING all Models.  IF you're a bad one, they are going to have a bad attiude tward models forever after.  Don't ruin a good photographer by being a cocky arrogant Jerk.  same geos if they are a first time Model, and you're photographing them.

Susi wrote:
I've spent as much on latex, corsets, wigs, feathered headpieces and props as most photographers have spent on their cameras and lenses.  I bring extensive wardrobe to a shoot.  I take serious issue with any photographer who thinks they spend more than me.   It's more an equal expense ratio where I'm concerned.  But as a matter of fact, I've never worked with anyone on a tfp basis who complained about mailing me a CD if I asked.

I can take a photo of you without your props.

Amanda Schlicher wrote:
It seems to me that postage is a rather stupid point to get all worked up about, BUT

I totally understand the frustration.  I'm no old pro, but I spend a lot of time and money on my equipment, and a lot of time in post production.  The time commitment for a photographer vs a model for a shoot is very different.  The photographer may spend hours preparing the studio, dressing the set, and definitely spends hours in post production.  While it's not JUST showing up and standing there, a model's actual time commitment to the shoot is much less (just think of all the models who just sit around *waiting* for the photographer to finish working on their photos )

I know how to work my camera, and I take good photos (sometimes).  When a model on her first or second shoot comes to me for a TFCD, she really isn't bringing a whole lot to the table.  I'm by no means perfect, but I have between 30-40 different "models" between my portfolios (and I've shot some that I haven't portfolioed too!), so I do have some experience.  She likely hasn't made any investment in makeup, wardrobe, gym membership, or any number of other things models list as expenses (which the rest of us just call hygiene).  In a sense, yes, she should be grateful to me that I agreed to shoot her for free. 

If an experienced (or talented) model comes in, does her own hair and makeup (or brings someone), looks great, poses great, has great ideas, and we do some good work together, it's a whole different ballgame.

So, I get it.

The postage thing is pretty petty though.

First thing.....If any one is working with a model that they don't think will ehnace their work then they are an Idiot......

Secondly......Perhaps you have never maintained a camera ready body.....I have.....There are 3 or 4 hours spent EVERY day at a minimum to have a Models Body......There are of course a few exceptions.....

I am really just seriously askance at why you camera slingers feel so put upon to give up your end of a bargain.....A bunch of Whining Primadonnas.....and the models get that rap.....seems obvious that it swings both ways.......

I do FTP all the time......I have painted sopme very high profile faces....I make a killer day rate.......My point being that I never do a trade that I will feel poorly about......

Is the concept of TRADE that hard to understand?

Perhaps you would all prefer to photograph Dogs and Cats?....there is a market for that I hear....and animals really are happy being paid in cookie bones.....

Amanda Schlicher wrote:
Okay

I'm getting really sick of models using healthy food and gym memberships as expenses.

It's called health and hygiene! 

You think all photographers are lazy, slobby, and eat McDonalds?  It would certainly seem so the way models throw that shit around like it has weight.  I have a gym membership and shop at the organic food store!  I clearly have to be flexible to run around with a camera and catch you at all of the most flattering angles, so I suppose I'll write of yoga class as well!  Surprise!  Some of us take care of our bodies without writing it off on our taxes!

Good god almighty.

but Amanda is your body PERFECT enough to be sought after for the purpose of posing NUDE with it?

FOR a model a body is her Costume or Equipment.....

It isn't just the expense of a gym membership it is the models TIME in using it.....

benson wrote:
really all a photographer does is point a camera and push a button.....

I don't know about the other photographers, but I'll be damned before I let a painted face twit like you devalue what I'm capable of doing and producing with a camera. You basically reduced me and my peers to monkeys trained to push a button. Only we have that right to make that distinction to suit our personal sense of humor.

But, there you have it fellas, a representative of the Napster generation has spoken to the community about the value (0) we as photographers bring to the table.

No wonder why these clowns feel we shouldn't get paid for shit.

That's it. From this point forward, I hope ALL photographers in the Intermediate to Advanced levels stop providing TFP, TFCD, TF-Whatever. The mentality that this guy has spoken of shows that it's clearly not in our best interests to Barter. I hope beginning Photographers take note and follow suit also. Shoot family members and product for TFP.

Photographers, if you barter, barter only with bonafide businesses, non-profit and grass roots organizations. They at least value what you provide and by golly, give you a freaking by-line in a published venue. Barbers also give free haircuts in exchange for your pretty pictures. The grandpa at my local seven eleven gives my kids free lollipops all because I shot and rendered a nice photo of him in his Santa outfit last Christmas.

LET THE PHOTOGRAPHER REVOLUTION BEGIN!

Edit: You're just a twit for the duration of how long it took you to write that one offending statement. No offense and my apologies.

Amanda Schlicher wrote:
Okay

I'm getting really sick of models using healthy food and gym memberships as expenses.

It's called health and hygiene! 

You think all photographers are lazy, slobby, and eat McDonalds?  It would certainly seem so the way models throw that shit around like it has weight.  I have a gym membership and shop at the organic food store!  I clearly have to be flexible to run around with a camera and catch you at all of the most flattering angles, so I suppose I'll write of yoga class as well!  Surprise!  Some of us take care of our bodies without writing it off on our taxes!

Good god almighty.

What!?!
No More McDonalds!
UGGGGGGG

Oh, wait...
Nevermind!
Misread that and jumped to conclusions!
I though that I had to stop eating MickeyDs and start being healthy....
sorry, Back to my regularly scheduled Double Quarter Piunder with cheeze Meal Supersized.....

BTW, Why is it a Double Quarter Pounder?
Why not a Half Pounder!?

Amanda Schlicher wrote:
Okay

I'm getting really sick of models using healthy food and gym memberships as expenses.

It's called health and hygiene! 

You think all photographers are lazy, slobby, and eat McDonalds?  It would certainly seem so the way models throw that shit around like it has weight.  I have a gym membership and shop at the organic food store!  I clearly have to be flexible to run around with a camera and catch you at all of the most flattering angles, so I suppose I'll write of yoga class as well!  Surprise!  Some of us take care of our bodies without writing it off on our taxes!

Good god almighty.

What!?!
No More McDonalds!
UGGGGGGG

Oh, wait...
Nevermind!
Misread that and jumped to conclusions!
I though that I had to stop eating MickeyDs and start being healthy....
sorry, Back to my regularly scheduled Double Quarter Piunder with cheeze Meal Supersized.....

BTW, Why is it a Double Quarter Pounder?
Why not a Half Pounder!?

Amanda Schlicher wrote:
Okay

I'm getting really sick of models using healthy food and gym memberships as expenses.

It's called health and hygiene! 

You think all photographers are lazy, slobby, and eat McDonalds?  It would certainly seem so the way models throw that shit around like it has weight.  I have a gym membership and shop at the organic food store!  I clearly have to be flexible to run around with a camera and catch you at all of the most flattering angles, so I suppose I'll write of yoga class as well!  Surprise!  Some of us take care of our bodies without writing it off on our taxes!

Good god almighty.

Big deal.  I have a digital camera.  I have memory cards and a computer and photoshop and a lot of the equipment that photographers have too. 

That wasn't the point that was made.

Wild Horse Photography wrote:

I don't know about the other photographers, but I'll be damned before I let a painted face twit like you devalue what I'm capable of doing and producing with a camera. You basically reduced me and my peers to monkeys trained to push a button. Only we have that right to make that distinction to suit our personal sense of humor.

But, there you have it fellas, a representative of the Napster generation has spoken to the community about the value (0) we as photographers bring to the table.

No wonder why these clowns feel we shouldn't get paid for shit.

That's it. From this point forward, I hope ALL photographers in the Intermediate to Advanced levels stop providing TFP, TFCD, TF-Whatever. The mentality that this guy has spoken of shows that it's clearly not in our best interests to Barter. I hope beginning Photographers take note and follow suit also. Shoot family members and product for TFP.

Photographers, if you barter, barter only with bonafide businesses, non-profit and grass roots organizations. They at least value what you provide and by golly, give you a freaking by-line. Barbers also give free haircuts in exchange for your pretty pictures. The grandpa at my local seven eleven gives my kids free lollipops all because I shot and rendered a nice photo of him in his Santa outfit last Christmas.

LET THE PHOTOGRAPHER REVOLUTION BEGIN!

IDIOT.....please do NOT quote me out of context......

benson wrote:
really all a photographer does is point a camera and push a button.....they have probably rooked a makeup artist into working for free too.....

Make Up artists have the hardest job and are really soley responsible for the final image....I mean the model just stands there and the photographer just stands and shoots.....the poor MUA has to paint the face make the look style the hair......

Now you see I think any of us could say that we work the hardest on set....in fact it is a gestalt....we all work hard.....

my point is OBVIOUSLY that there is NO ONE who invests more time or money in getting a good image than anyone else involved......

As for being a Painted faced twit....I at least have a comprehension level above that of an 8 year old......

Please do stop doing TFP/CD....that will mean that I don't have to explain to any more fools who think that they are a photographer just because they own a camera why I cant work for FREE!

Amanda Schlicher wrote:

I can take a photo of you without your props.

this may be true...but let me see you take a photo of her with her not there!

Jayne Jones wrote:

Hmmm. . .if what you're saying is true. . .he could make the model pay the $3 for the shipping. . .the $1 for the CD and then add the credit card bill and bulk pack of CD's into his taxes as a business expense. . .THUS getting reimbursed by the model AND the IRS.  Sweet!

We can rebuild him and make him better.  Better than he was before.

You do realize that in less than 12 hours time, you made me fall deeply and madly in love with you....
I fell so far in fact, I wrote a parody, Just for you....


Jayne says,
I'm done with Fabio,
He treats me like a ragdoll.
He's hides,
the Model's CD
for postage he is griping.
But if she come backs again,
tell her pose right here for me or,
Try again tomorrow!

He's gonna click Tomorrow
He's gonna Click tomorrow!!!


I could go on, but I think most of MM is running to the bathroom right about now

Suzi wrote:
[Big deal.  I have a digital camera.  I have memory cards and a computer and photoshop and a lot of the equipment that photographers have too. 

That wasn't the point that was made.

GO SUZI GO SUZI


You know most of us can point and push a button....perhaps we will just cut out the middle man?!?!

benson wrote:
GO SUZI GO SUZI


You know most of us can point and push a button....perhaps we will just cut out the middle man?!?!

Oh yeah, get me in more trouble by agreeing with me

It is a fight that I just don't understand.  All three groups need each other.  When the trade is equal then do TFP/CD.  When you are better, you get paid.  When the people you work with are better, then you pay them.

WHY BITCH?

benson wrote:
IDIOT.....please do NOT quote me out of context......


my point is OBVIOUSLY that there is NO ONE who invests more time or money in getting a good image than anyone else involved......

As for being a Painted faced twit....I at least have a comprehension level above that of an 8 year old......

Please do stop doing TFP/CD....that will mean that I don't have to explain to any more fools who think that they are a photographer just because they own a camera why I cant work for FREE!

LOL. The bitch slapping we all do to each other in the community cracks me up. Benson, you're alright man and I meant no ill will upon you by referring to you as a painted face twit. I like the make-up man and the head pose! Very cool.

Anyhow, we aren't just camera button pushers. We have the "eye" that many of you depend on. People tend to think, developing that eye means going from photographer port to port copying their styles. Nope. That isn't the case. I can hand pick several photographers on this site alone, who like me, don't need to continually come here and source a port or magazine for ideas. We form a vision, create it and put it onto digital or print form. Most of us can run with an obscure idea and turn it into something, or another thing and well, there's just many things we bring to the table that just cannot be found in anyone with a camera.

Peace bruddah. May you get those images you've been waiting for.

Suzi wrote:
Oh yeah, get me in more trouble by agreeing with me

It is a fight that I just don't understand.  All three groups need each other.  When the trade is equal them do TFP/CD.  When you are better, you get paid.  When the people you work with are better, then you pay them.

WHY BITCH?

AMEN SISTER.......what riled me up was the attitude of fabio that he was somehow doing the MODEL a favor.........

Whatever.......If I dont have a face to paint I am outta work...if he doesn't have a body to shoot he is outta work....If I wont paint your face and he wont shoot you then you are out of work......

We are a Gestalt............The sum is bigger than the parts!

benson wrote:
but Amanda is your body PERFECT enough to be sought after for the purpose of posing NUDE with it?

FOR a model a body is her Costume or Equipment.....

It isn't just the expense of a gym membership it is the models TIME in using it.....

I spend lots of time at the gym.  I've been studying dance, tae kwon do, and yoga for years.  If your body isn't perfect to begin with, you don't have a career in modelling.  Exercise is for maintenence, not getting a brand new body ready to be seen on MTV.  I'm 5'2" with wide hips.  I could work out 8 hours a day and I'd never be a model.

It'd be like me trying to pay myself for time I spend alone putzing around in the studio with new lighting equipment/concepts and writing it off as a business expense.

benson wrote:
...
We are a Gestalt............The sum is bigger than the parts!

I agree with that statement and let me tack onto it with the addition of sacrifices. Sometimes, it's worth making a personal sacrifice in order to achieve a goal, or as Benson put it, to arrive at the sum, which often might lead to money if that is part of the goal.