Photographer
Andys Creative Images
Posts: 43
Murfreesboro, Tennessee, US
I've been a part of this fine forum for a little while now, and I'm curious about something.
Why do so many of the female models say in their bio they will not do lingerie or nudity, then have pictures like this in their port? I'm sure it's because these pictures obviously get by far the most views and comments, but it's still like a double standard. Why not be like Ole Popeye. . . "I yam what I yam" . . . and be proud of it? :-)
Andy
Photographer
Cat Shadows Photography
Posts: 12055
Gorham, Maine, US
Could be the model had a bad experience during a nude shoot and wants to keep her options open.
Photographer
Andys Creative Images
Posts: 43
Murfreesboro, Tennessee, US
OK, I can understand a bad experience turning her off, but I still say, if it's something she doesn't want to do, why advertize otherwise?
It's not just one or two either. So many of them are doing this.
I just found it odd.
Model
theda
Posts: 21719
New York, New York, US
Because if you don't say I won't do nudity, people will waste your time and theirs asking you to do it. This is the internet where nudity does reign supreme. It's suggested in the FAQ that you include your limits in your profile text.
Edit: I should have read the OP better. It's the same damn question about why girls say x and does y.
Model
Amanda Jeanne
Posts: 135
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I notice that too and do find it a little weird ... though I have had girls tell me that the instant you put one nude/semi nude picture in your profile, the nude requests seem to skyrocket.
I think maybe this gives the model a chance to only discuss nudes with photographers she would actually want to shoot them with.
Photographer
Andys Creative Images
Posts: 43
Murfreesboro, Tennessee, US
OK, Amanda, just to argue, and keep the thread going, is the idea gameplaying, or up front bios and posts of what we actually will, or will not do?
I was curious enough I just checked your bio and port out. You are a sensable, beautiful, young lady that tells it like it is in your bio, and doesn't mind showing what a well rounded person you are in your port. I have no doubt whatsoever that you will do whatever you feel comfortable doing, but wouldn't hesitate refusing anything you found to be in bad taste. MY hat is off to you for being honest, and above all the gameplaying.
My question STILL is, why can't everybody be like this?
Photographer
Habenero Photography
Posts: 1444
Mesa, Arizona, US
Men are visually oriented. We look at a port to gauge what the model may do. Many men never read the profiles, the photographs in a port tell them all they need to know.
Women like to verbalize. To them, everything that is written in a port is important and the pictures just have to look good. That the written word is in conflict with the posted photographs never crosses their mind.
If you see a port that has these differences, why not send a message to the model and ask her who photoshopped her clothes off, because you want to learn how to do that.
Model
Amanda Jeanne
Posts: 135
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
CDs and Video Unlimited wrote:
OK, Amanda, just to argue, and keep the thread going, is the idea gameplaying, or up front bios and posts of what we actually will, or will not do?
I was curious enough I just checked your bio and port out. You are a sensable, beautiful, young lady that tells it like it is in your bio, and doesn't mind showing what a well rounded person you are in your port. I have no doubt whatsoever that you will do whatever you feel comfortable doing, but wouldn't hesitate refusing anything you found to be in bad taste. MY hat is off to you for being honest, and above all the gameplaying.
My question STILL is, why can't everybody be like this? Thank you for your kind words! See, I think my portfolio reflects that I will do some risque type stuff, but generally, the clothes stay on. I do not say "no nudes" because with the right photographer, and personal comfort with my body.. I just might do them. Not something I'm looking for at all now, but who knows.. down the line I may be interested and I personally do not want to limit myself to the photographers who will contact me regarding them.
I think the most important thing for a model to is list where she is looking to go in this industry. If it is a girl looking for commercial work, one should know that nudes would not help her portfolio. But, its already been mentioned that not everyone reads them.
Photographer
Kevin Rodgers
Posts: 149
DELAND, Florida, US
I usually take this as a sign that even though they have done nude or lingerie, they are not availing themselves for additional photos of that theme. This could be considered an "Enough is Enough, but no more" type thing. Or just a sign as not available for that theme at this moment. Some models, and I can understand, don't wish to be tagged as a nude or lingerie model, and just want to go back to doing something more fashion or glamour with clothes on, or even casual.
Photographer
Kentsoul
Posts: 9739
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US
theda wrote:
Because if you don't say I won't do nudity, people will waste your time and theirs asking you to do it. This is the internet where nudity does reign supreme. It's suggested in the FAQ that you include your limits in your profile text.
Edit: I should have read the OP better. It's the same damn question about why girls say x and does y. That's why it keeps getting asked...because they can't get a woman who'll listen to the question the first time.
Photographer
Howard Garcia
Posts: 2210
New York, New York, US
Oh it's probably because they only do nudes with the "Superstar" photogs that (in their mind) might get them somewhere in the biz or pay them a lot of $$ to take their clothes off.
I see that alot on the internet.
Oh well....when I see that I just hit the "NEXT" button.
Photographer
i c e c o l d
Posts: 8610
Fort Myers, Florida, US
CDs and Video Unlimited wrote:
Why do so many of the female models say in their bio they will not do lingerie or nudity, then have pictures like this in their port?
I'm sure it's because these pictures obviously get by far the most views and comments, but it's still like a double standard.
Andy [insert picture]beating a dead horse[/insert]
As it has been stated a 100x's before.....
It means they will do nudes.....but just not with you!
Photographer
Marvin Dockery
Posts: 2243
Alcoa, Tennessee, US
Clique7 Studios wrote:
Could be the model had a bad experience during a nude shoot and wants to keep her options open. If I email a model asking her to pose nude for me, I seldom get a reply. If I leave her a tag that say's "welcome to MM from a Tennessee guy", she will look over my images, and paid shoot offers, and then message me saying that she would love to work with me. Just lay down the the offer and allow her to decide if she wants to contact you. This way no one is offended.
Model
StacyJack
Posts: 2297
New Orleans, Louisiana, US
Photographer
artist
Posts: 294
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US
CDs and Video Unlimited wrote:
I've been a part of this fine forum for a little while now, and I'm curious about something.
Why do so many of the female models say in their bio they will not do lingerie or nudity, then have pictures like this in their port? I'm sure it's because these pictures obviously get by far the most views and comments, but it's still like a double standard. Why not be like Ole Popeye. . . "I yam what I yam" . . . and be proud of it? :-)
Andy This comes up time and again. It's false advertising, and wastes a lot of time on the part of people seeking legitimate, honest, and serious models.
If you won't do images similar to what is in your portfolio, you are falsely advertising yourself, and your services. That's at best unethical, and at worst dishonest. What it means, is that I (and you) should ignore the model completely. Don't even bother letting them know -- since without an exception they are rude, nasty and in some cases down right crazy.
Think about it. If they put up those images to attract attention and stroke their egos, without any intent of actually considering the requests they get -- or even being rude and brutal to the people making them -- there is something wrong with that person.
Now, you can argue that, and loads of people do. But a portfolio for a model is *not* about what you did, who you worked with and what they did, or what you like about yourself -- it's about WHAT WILL YOU DO for the next person. In all ways that is what a photographer's portfolio is too, but that does involve a lot of what you've already done. For a model, it's what you look like now, how you wear clothes (or not), what sort of poses you do, what special features you have, etc.
Anything else is just a waste of everyone's time. Like posting 20 head shots and saying you want to do fashion or glamour, or even nude/fetish. What's the point?
Realize, that a portfolio is supposed to say EVERYTHING about you a client needs to know in a 5 second scan. If it doesn't, it's failed. If it doesn't "hook" them, you're out the door or they're on to the next website.
Most portfolios on here *suck* to that purpose. Some have great photos, but they are totally useless, or pointless, in deciding to hire that model.
But, any model that posts nude/sexy/provocative photos then says they don't do it, AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE. Put a pox upon their pages, and move on. Even spread the word that person is "odd" and others should avoid them. Maybe they'll eventually get the message.
But this issue, along with managers/escorts is the bane of on-line web models and contacts. It's all bullshit, ego stroking, and in some cases a desperate cry for "I NEED MORE MEDICATION *NOW*".
Scott
aka Bodyartist
Photographer
Aperture Photographics
Posts: 310
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
CDs and Video Unlimited wrote:
I've been a part of this fine forum for a little while now, and I'm curious about something.
Why do so many of the female models say in their bio they will not do lingerie or nudity, then have pictures like this in their port? I'm sure it's because these pictures obviously get by far the most views and comments, but it's still like a double standard. Why not be like Ole Popeye. . . "I yam what I yam" . . . and be proud of it? :-)
Andy If nudity is so important to you when considering a model, spend your time asking the models who say they are available for nudity. or ask them after you've done some projects with them that don't include nudity. A model will respect a photographer who respects her limits, and many will steer clear of the photographers who are just here for the boobies.
Photographer
i c e c o l d
Posts: 8610
Fort Myers, Florida, US
Aperture Photographics wrote:
If nudity is so important to you when considering a llama, spend your time asking the llamas who say they are available for nudity. or ask them after you've done some projects with them that don't include nudity. A llama will respect a photographer who respects her limits, and many will steer clear of the photographers who are just here for the boobies. ding ding ding....We have a winner!
Very well said, the perfect answer.
Photographer
artist
Posts: 294
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US
Habenero Photography wrote:
Men are visually oriented. We look at a port to gauge what the model may do. Many men never read the profiles, the photographs in a port tell them all they need to know.
Women like to verbalize. To them, everything that is written in a port is important and the pictures just have to look good. That the written word is in conflict with the posted photographs never crosses their mind.
If you see a port that has these differences, why not send a message to the model and ask her who photoshopped her clothes off, because you want to learn how to do that. Very good. You said it very nicely. In your first two paragraphs. Dead on.
I even like your humorous response in the 3rd paragraph
But I addressed in my last post. They don't care, they are bitchy, they are rude, they are nasty, and 9 out of 10 reply with a response that indicates they need a medication adjustment. A few will even stalk/harrass you for pointing that out. So, just *wonder* who photoshopped their clothes off, and move on. They will try to suck you into a "fight" and you don't need that. You don't want it, because if you get angry, or they push your buttons, they will complain about you, and try to get you censored (in some way, here, elsewhere) for saying it. Just ignore them, and maybe start a "black list" for photographers to check.
I'm building a site for local photographers/models in Pittsburgh, as part of the local Photographers and Models Meetup, and it's software I've been writing/planning for about 6 years .. and it's all suddenly coming together. Pittsburgh isn't a big market, and with 100,000+ profiles here, a 100 mile radius search shows only about 150+ models. 1/10 of 1% of the profiles here. Not a lot of hits. I'm hoping a new site will increase the visibility of people doing modeling and photography in this area.
One rule on the system, that will cause expulsion is posting/checking the [No Nudes] box then trying to use nude images, or keywords for "nude" or "nudity". Those profiles will be removed by the system on any search for those words, BEFORE results are tallied, and if someone tries to get around it, they will be booted.
I'm truly sick of the attempts to manipulate the system, or take advantage of lesser-built search engines to have "no nudes", "I don't do nudes", "I don't do nudity" etc words. There will be a simple choice. yes/no. And you will stick to that. Either you do, or you don't. Not "maybe", "If I feel like it", "Only if I get paid," etc.
This actually delayed a piece of the program. After being on here for a month, I realized how serious this was to build in, and I had to change some of the decision trees, database structures, and logic gates to handle this sort of thing. But, it will allow more accurate searches, and allow those *serious* about working to get more jobs over those who play games. It will also allow a better search for other things, such as fetish modeling, types of locations, etc.
Scott
aka Bodyartist
Scott
aka Bodyartist
Photographer
artist
Posts: 294
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US
Icecold Images wrote:
ding ding ding....We have a winner!
Very well said, the perfect answer. See my above posts. But AVOID the models that show they do, but say they don't. No reason to work with them AT ALL. There are plenty of honest, up front, and willing to collaborate people, so avoid the ones that create or show they are problems even before you start to collaborate.
If you avoid them, and they get *NO* responses, maybe they'll be more honest in their portfolio. But, more likely, they'll just post more nude/nudity so they can try to troll for people to bitch at.
Scott
aka Bodyartist
Photographer
William Coleman
Posts: 2371
New York, New York, US
Most women will have sex, but with only a tiny percentage of the men who offer that particular service. In the same way, lots of models will pose nude, but only with some photogs, under some conditions, etc. Men being men, it behooves a model to downplay or even omit that she might pose nude. It's just the way things are. I think it's best to recognize and accept that. 'Course, that's just me. :-)
Photographer
Yze
Posts: 107
Huntsville, Alabama, US
CDs and Video Unlimited wrote:
I've been a part of this fine forum for a little while now, and I'm curious about something.
Why do so many of the female models say in their bio they will not do lingerie or nudity, then have pictures like this in their port? I'm sure it's because these pictures obviously get by far the most views and comments, but it's still like a double standard. Why not be like Ole Popeye. . . "I yam what I yam" . . . and be proud of it? :-)
Andy This is the best question yet! I've seen models that have a few artistic nudes that were the only professional looking shots & the rest of the pics look like their mother took them. Then she said that she is no longer doing nude shots. I sent her a message letting her know that a)those were her best shots & b)if she doesn't want to do that anymore, then it's ridiculous to post those pics. You can't run an ad with BMW's & Benz's in it & only have Kia's & Daewoo's on the lot! Even the occasional Lexus will still have the customer dissapointed.
Photographer
Valkyrur
Posts: 1187
Nelsonville, New York, US
...Stacy wrote:
blah blah blah... Models talk so well 
Photographer
Dave Krueger
Posts: 2851
Huntsville, Alabama, US
...Stacy wrote:
blah blah blah... That's what you say.
Model
Samantha Smead
Posts: 514
Clive, Iowa, US
Well I don't know about why they would have the pictures in their port after saying so. But I know why my port says no lingerie and no nudes and thats because of my parents. They don't want to see me do that work even though i think some of the work i've seen in those genres are the most beautiful i've seen.
Photographer
Voice of Reason
Posts: 8741
Anaheim, California, US
Why are so many people on this site so obsessed with nudity, no nudity, when to pose nude, when not to, how to pose nude, what is porn, what isn't?
Dang people. Take your clothes off....don't take your clothes off. Who cares already!
Maybe evryone needs to get together and have a group nude shoot where eberyone is nude. Model, Photographer, MUA, Stylist. We can all see how we look naked like schoolkids playing doctor and be done with it.
Let me know when. I'll be sick that day.
Photographer
SLE Photography
Posts: 68937
Orlando, Florida, US
paleosam wrote:
Well I don't know about why they would have the pictures in their port after saying so. But I know why my port says no lingerie and no nudes and thats because of my parents. They don't want to see me do that work even though i think some of the work i've seen in those genres are the most beautiful i've seen. Not to seem rude, as what you cite is a perfectly acceptable personal choice for not posing nude, but I was just wondering why your parents would be more concerned with nudes than bi-pride images with your girlfriend. I don't mean that as a criticism of you or your parents, I'm just genuinely curious. Most of the folks I know would have more trouble with the bi-pride pics.
Photographer
Andys Creative Images
Posts: 43
Murfreesboro, Tennessee, US
Thanks for everybody's response to my question.
BTW, nudity isn't that big of a deal to me. I just love my photography. Clothed or unclothed. However studying human behavour is interesting to say the least . . .
Photographer
Rage Photographics
Posts: 433
Irving, Illinois, US
My two cents:
There is a relationship that takes place between a photographer and a model; it's a professional relationship, not a personal one. However, just as in a personal relationship, there is a comfort level. This comfort level goes far beyond with how she feels about the photographer (remember, we are talking about the female mind here). She is also thinking about every scenario and outcome that could and would take place after doing this. Is it worth it for her? What is she really going to gain from this? What kind of doors are going to open? Good ones? Bad ones?
Maybe she is going to wait until she feels comfortable with a photographer (and herself) before she considers the possibility of nudity in a shoot, ESPECIALLY if she is not going to be paid for this type of shoot.
It is HER profile, she has the right to post what she wants.
It is HER decision to pose nude or not.
YOU have NO say in this and she does NOT care if you like it or not
It's not something you need to understand, it's something you simply need to respect.
End of story.
Photographer
Kentsoul
Posts: 9739
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US
William Coleman wrote:
Most women will have sex, but with only a tiny percentage of the men who offer that particular service. In the same way, lots of models will pose nude, but only with some photogs, under some conditions, etc. Men being men, it behooves a model to downplay or even omit that she might pose nude. It's just the way things are. I think it's best to recognize and accept that. 'Course, that's just me. :-) There's nothing scarier than a post giving people license to conduct their business using the same "sitcom logic" that they employ in dating and relationships. As if we didn't already have enough unaccountable, flakey wanabes around.
Thanks a bunch pal.
Photographer
William Coleman
Posts: 2371
New York, New York, US
Melvin Moten Jr wrote:
There's nothing scarier than a post giving people license to conduct their business using the same "sitcom logic" that they employ in dating and relationships. As if we didn't already have enough unaccountable, flakey wanabes around.
Thanks a bunch pal. Mel, go to OMP, open a female model profile and check one of the nude boxes, even just "artistic nude." Your inbox will be flooded with emails from guys you'd never shoot with. You'll spend days weeding through them. And that will be your life as an OMP model. Walk a mile in a female model's shoes. It's a question not of how you and I think things should be, but the way things are. I empathize with you, in your frustation at the deception. And you empathize with...
Photographer
FabioTovar
Posts: 583
Culver City, California, US
I just have one question that may have more answers than I care to know.
and it may have already been asked and answered..... but i have to ask.
Why do so many women pose nude in the first place?
many of them on sites like these DON'T get paid for it. and I doubt that the nude pictures they take gets them any REAL work. So why do it? If you arent getting anything out of being nude that you wouldnt get outta being in a bikini??? Why?
I cant think it would be for attention... because most of the attention gotten from that always seem to be negative. GWC's wanting to get closer... "men" gawking and commenting ( i seperated men from photographer). what benefit is there to being nude other than quenching a mans desire to see a woman naked and eventually fantasising about thing in less than desirable ways? and you can go on and on about the art....but the truth is. the voyuer astronomically outways the art conosuir. A lamb amongst a den lions and 1 sheapherd
Photographer
American Glamour
Posts: 38813
Detroit, Michigan, US
...Stacy wrote:
blah blah blah... That's what I like, a committed person!
Model
leila
Posts: 209
CDs and Video Unlimited wrote:
I've been a part of this fine forum for a little while now, and I'm curious about something.
Why do so many of the female models say in their bio they will not do lingerie or nudity, then have pictures like this in their port? I'm sure it's because these pictures obviously get by far the most views and comments, but it's still like a double standard. Why not be like Ole Popeye. . . "I yam what I yam" . . . and be proud of it? :-)
Andy maybe they only feel comfortable doing topless or nude with togs they know or have worked with before
Photographer
Jay Bowman
Posts: 6511
Los Angeles, California, US
CDs and Video Unlimited wrote:
I've been a part of this fine forum for a little while now, and I'm curious about something.
Why do so many of the female models say in their bio they will not do lingerie or nudity, then have pictures like this in their port? There are a number of reasons for this:
-To confuse.
-To give this particular discussion -which comes up very often- new life after it's been
beaten to death.
-As a simple exercise in "Say one thing and do the opposite." something that I'm convinced
is in lesson 2 of A Woman's Guide to Life.
-Because they don't know any better.
-Because they think it will prevent you from asking.
-Because they liked another photographer better and was so turned on that they got naked and,
subsequently, there's a lot of other things that happened when the camera was turned off...
Or the most likely answer...
...just because.
Model
Samantha Smead
Posts: 514
Clive, Iowa, US
SLE Photography wrote:
Not to seem rude, as what you cite is a perfectly acceptable personal choice for not posing nude, but I was just wondering why your parents would be more concerned with nudes than bi-pride images with your girlfriend. I don't mean that as a criticism of you or your parents, I'm just genuinely curious. Most of the folks I know would have more trouble with the bi-pride pics. I'm not out to them completely thats why.
Photographer
SNAPSHOT LA
Posts: 7020
Los Angeles, California, US
IF A MODEL SAYS NO NUDES, THEN A MODEL SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY NUDES IN HER PORTFOLIO. I UNDERSTAND THAT SOME MODELS WILL DO NUDES WITH PHOTOGRAPHERS THAT THEY FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH OR HAVE A CERTAIN VISION WITH THAT PERSON BUT, A PORTFOLIO SHOULD REFLECT YOU THE MODEL.
IF YOU DONT FEEL COMFORTABLE DOING CERTAIN SHOOTS WITH CERTAIN PEOPLE THEN YOU SHOULDN'T SHOW IT. I UNDERSTAND THAT THE PHOTO WAS ARTISTICALLY DONE OR ITS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL PHOTOGRAPH YOU HAVE EVER TAKEN, BUT YOU HAVE SAID NO NUDITY SO DON'T SHOW IT.
PHOTOGRAPHERS SHOULD ALSO KNOW WHEN TO STOP HARRASING MODELS TO DO NUDES.
Photographer
area291
Posts: 2525
Calabasas, California, US
Who cares? If the motivation is to shoot nudity seek those like minded instead of dreaming.
Photographer
Steven Starr
Posts: 1433
Fort Mill, South Carolina, US
Howard Garcia wrote:
Oh it's probably because they only do nudes with the "Superstar" photogs that (in their mind) might get them somewhere in the biz or pay them a lot of $$ to take their clothes off.
I see that alot on the internet.
Oh well....when I see that I just hit the "NEXT" button. I have had this be the case as well and some of them shooting with their bf and thinking that it looks soo good but don't want real photographers to even think about shooting them. I do see a double standard but also understand that by marking "nude" or stating that they do them opens the flood gates...and they get pounded with emails.
On another note...how about this? They have nude pics but when asked to shoot they rudely respond and tell you that they only do "artistic" nudes...yet the shot their boyfriend took of them on the couch is no where near artistic?
Photographer
Steven Starr
Posts: 1433
Fort Mill, South Carolina, US
William Coleman wrote:
Most women will have sex, but with only a tiny percentage of the men who offer that particular service. In the same way, lots of models will pose nude, but only with some photogs, under some conditions, etc. Men being men, it behooves a model to downplay or even omit that she might pose nude. It's just the way things are. I think it's best to recognize and accept that. 'Course, that's just me. :-) Respect your opinion but disagree. Professionals "have" to shoot with "many" photographers. They either do or do not do nudes. It is really that simple. The ones that don't do nudes don't post nudes in the portfolios because they know it is misleading and they realize that it is asking for trouble.
If models (nude models) only pose for some photographers they are going to have a hell of a time when playboy and perfect 10 call and tell them theat "their" photogapher can't be used.
I had a model actually do this with me one time. She shot nude with me but was not comfortable shooting with other photographers. She marked all over her port in big bold letters "I DO NOT DO NUDES FOR ANY REASON". I told her over and over that she either needed to remove the disclaimer or remove the images because she was sending mixed signals and it didn't appear very professional. She could not see the issue so instead of taking my advice she added to the disclaimer "I ONLY SHOOT WITH ONE PHOTOGRAPHER NUDE".
Needless to say that didn't help matter and she no longer models.
Photographer
Steven Starr
Posts: 1433
Fort Mill, South Carolina, US
FabioTovar wrote:
I just have one question that may have more answers than I care to know.
and it may have already been asked and answered..... but i have to ask.
Why do so many women pose nude in the first place?
many of them on sites like these DON'T get paid for it. and I doubt that the nude pictures they take gets them any REAL work. So why do it? If you arent getting anything out of being nude that you wouldnt get outta being in a bikini??? Why?
I cant think it would be for attention... because most of the attention gotten from that always seem to be negative. GWC's wanting to get closer... "men" gawking and commenting ( i seperated men from photographer). what benefit is there to being nude other than quenching a mans desire to see a woman naked and eventually fantasising about thing in less than desirable ways? and you can go on and on about the art....but the truth is. the voyuer astronomically outways the art conosuir. A lamb amongst a den lions and 1 sheapherd Just curious what nude models your aware of are getting "negative" publicity for posing nude? Not being a smart ass but that's a first for me. I've heard of upsetting parents and boyfriends...but never negative "publicity".
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