Bruce Caines wrote:
although i'm not sure what the point of the original post was, other than maybe to share and vent, i find the digs at daniela for her concerns/fears/apprehension a little more than annoying.

a female--anybody, really--in a neighborhood they are not familiar with, at night, which admittedly has had a reputation for crime for several years, has every right to be cautious or nervous.  harlem may be undergoing a renaissance, but there are stretches of Frederick Douglass Blvd that will not be Wisteria Lane for a long time. for all of the advice to models posted in other threads about "yeah, girl, be careful when going to a shoot. don't put yourself in a situation where you feel uncomfortable...," there certainly seems to be a cavalier and condescending response from some people here.

i'm a native new yorker. a black male. i'm 6'5" and weigh 218. i probably fit in to the neighborhood more than daniella--or most of the people posting in this thread. there are neighborhoods in harlem i am not comfortable in. i have relatives who live in harlem who avoid certain areas. hell, there are blocks in "trendy" chelsea, my own area, that are dicey.


since columbia university doesn't encompass the entirety of harlem that is a bit of an overstatement. even they know which areas are chill and which are not.

i think if anything, we should be saying, "hey, the neighborhood you were in was actually okay, but you were smart for trusting your gut rather than not."

all that said, daniela, what was the point of your original post?

No point really- just felt like sharing my story- I've seen some other stories shared so I thought I would do the same- that's all. But apparantly it raised some discussion over just how safe Harlem is and how safe it isn't- still think I made the right decision.

And I didn't expect the designer to have valet or something, but if you're scheduling fittings I would think you would be somewhere that's easy to get to- and I think midtown is a LOT easier to park in than Harlem- if they had a parking garage that would've been helpful.

And I was on 140th for everyone that asked.

So really- no point- just felt like sharing- that's all. :-)

RGraphics wrote:
ever noticed the crime never really happens in harlem..  mostly in the soho area..

The crime in Harlem hardly hits the news.
Anyone hear about the 2 stabbings on 145th 2 days ago?    exactly!

RGraphics wrote:
ever noticed the crime never really happens in harlem..  mostly in the soho area..

Soho is dirty as hell.

Mostly the upperclass stroll through there. I would suppose that more crime does happen there.

It is nothing compared to Detroit.

Digital Al wrote:

The crime in Harlem hardly hits the news.
Anyone hear about the 2 stabbings on 145th 2 days ago?    exactly!

yeah, i had to laugh at the "crime never really happens in harlem" comment. i spent a month doing grand jury duty last year, listening to some scary cases. harlem is definitely holding its own as far as crime in nyc goes. crime is quite the equal opportunity employer.

BasementStudios wrote:

Okay here comes the racial twist.  Ya knew it had to happen.  maybe it was the fact that she was alone, in a strange neighborhood, in New York City and was facing the prospect of walking ALONE!  Man doesn't matter if it was Harlem or the good old Mid-West, I doubt that she would feel safe walking alone at night regardless!

Well I never mentioned race but its hanging out there, people don't post their
stories about parking in Soho or Manhattan  and having to walk ten blocks.
She said it was rush hour so it wasn't that late.  I understand better then most
about living and working in the 'hood.'  I'm not sure if I were a women I'd go
walking by myself that distance.  So if it meant calling a cab with my cell or
waiting in my car untill one drove near me I might.  By the way I've been to
Harlem and it is not nearly what it used to be but it still can be rough.
Truth is I wouldn't want to walk ten blocks myself but what was really the point
of this post?  If you can't find parking and don't want to walk very far because
you don't feel safe then call say that and don't go.  I don't know if this has
a racial twist I just asked a question.  By the way to me this story does have
a bit of a nasty taste.  'My Harlem adventure.'  Hmmmm.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
By the way to me this story does have
a bit of a nasty taste.  'My Harlem adventure.'  Hmmmm.

i gotta admit, the hair on the back of my neck got up a bit when i read the title and subsequent post. all issues aside regarding general concern for safety, i too find it interesting that the title of the post wasn't less..."provocative" for lack of a better word. i'm not saying daniela was trying to piss anyone off, but in reality this should have been more about "my crappy fitting adventure". i am sure people were immediately taking sides just based on the title. this is probably why some comments were more of a dig than "there, there..."

Bruce Caines wrote:

i gotta admit, the hair on the back of my neck got up a bit when i read the title and subsequent post. all issues aside regarding general concern for safety, i too find it interesting that the title of the post wasn't less..."provocative" for lack of a better word. i'm not saying daniela was trying to piss anyone off, but in reality this should have been more about "my crappy fitting adventure". i am sure people were immediately taking sides just based on the title. this is probably why some comments were more of a dig than "there, there..."

Exactly my point.  I'm not saying we all have to be P.C. all the time but when
a story starts like my adventure in Harlem or Compton I wonder what it really
means.  All big cities can be dangerous and Harlem can be rough as I said but
the title and slant of this story makes me feel a little queasy.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

Exactly my point.  I'm not saying we all have to be P.C. all the time but when
a story starts like my adventure in Harlem or Compton I wonder what it really
means.  All big cities can be dangerous and Harlem can be rough as I said but
the title and slant of this story makes me feel a little queasy.

If I were in L.A. it would've been titled: "My L.A. adventure"...if I were in Soho, it would've been titled "My Soho adventure"...if I were in St. Paul it would've been titled "My St. Paul Adventure"... call me crazy (or racist as you're attempting to)- but I didn't think twice about the title- I don't care what the population percentage is like- if it's an unsafe area, it's an unsafe area-

Frankly- if I were a black female, I wouldn't have walked ten blocks- if I were a male, maybe things would be different. It has more to do with sex than race.

I'm not a biggot, please don't label me as such-

Digital Al wrote:
uhhhh that is the beginning of Harlem... walk around the 140's late at night and I guarantee you will never say such silliness again!

The 140s would be Washington Heights, not Harlem. Harlem starts in the low 100s and ends in the 130s. Although it's true that once you get above 100th street or so, hailing a cab becomes a lot more difficult.

While Harlem isn't an area I spend much time in, I know the block-to-block phenomenon from spending a bit of time Bed-Stuy. I do have a few friends there who've lived in that neighborhood for some time and love it, but are annoyed by the Columbia students spilling over like the NYU students have. Even when my sister went there in the early 80s, she felt pretty safe. BUt assuming that those aren't Columbia students, empty streets just don't happen in Manhattan.

Maybe I'm just ballsy, but the only time I've ever felt unsafe in NYC was when I made a wrong turn in the wherehouse district of Bushwick where the streets are almost vacant, though it was still pretty well lit. 

I understand why she might have felt nervous, but I really don't think it was warranted.  And in the future, don't drive into NYC.  Take the PATH or a bus. Parking is a myth.

Edit: I just notice she waid she was on 140th, which is the botom of Washintgon Heights.  This should have been her Washington Heights adventure. I've got friends there too.  Mostly strugglling actors. Li'll white Southern belles, too.

theda wrote:

The 140s would be Washington Heights, not Harlem. Harlem starts in the low 100s and ends in the 130s. Although it's true that once you get above 100th street or so, hailing a cab becomes a lot more difficult.

While Harlem isn't an area I spend much time in, I know the block-to-block phenomenon from spending a bit of time Bed-Stuy. I do have a few friends there who've lived in that neighborhood for some time and love it, but are annoyed by the Columbia students spilling over like the NYU students have. Even when my sister went there in the early 80s, she felt pretty safe. BUt assuming that those aren't Columbia students, empty streets just don't happen in Manhattan.

Maybe I'm just ballsy, but the only time I've ever felt unsafe in NYC was when I made a wrong turn in the wherehouse district of Bushwick where the streets are almost vacant, though it was still pretty well lit. 

I understand why she might have felt nervous, but I really don't think it was warranted.  And in the future, don't drive into NYC.  Take the PATH or a bus. Parking is a myth.

Edit: I just notice she waid she was on 140th, which is the botom of Washintgon Heights.  This should have been her Washington Heights adventure. I've got friends there too.  Mostly strugglling actors. Li'll white Southern belles, too.

I always drive into NYC because I never had a problem parking- I'd rather have my car there, pay an astronomical figure to park in a garage, to come and go as a please, then to depend on mass transit...which is touch and go where I live in NJ (ie: trains run every couple of hours to NY- I'm not on the NE Corridor extension). Had I known parking would have been *that difficult* I would've tried to have made other arrangments. But, my experience in NY has always been better when I drive in.

theda wrote:
The 140s would be Washington Heights, not Harlem. Harlem starts in the low 100s and ends in the 130s. Although it's true that once you get above 100th street or so, hailing a cab becomes a lot more difficult.

IF you wanna get technical, Harlem starts at about 118th and end in the 150's. After that you have Sugar Hill and Manhattanville then you have Washington Heights which starts in the 160's.

Hailing a cab around there is not hard at all unless your trying to catch a yellow cab. The problem with the uptown cabbies is that if you dont speak spanish you will pay double!

Bed stuy is another world that we should not even mention. lol

Daniela V wrote:

I always drive into NYC because I never had a problem parking- I'd rather have my car there, pay an astronomical figure to park in a garage, to come and go as a please, then to depend on mass transit...which is touch and go where I live in NJ (ie: trains run every couple of hours to NY- I'm not on the NE Corridor extension). Had I known parking would have been *that difficult* I would've tried to have made other arrangments. But, my experience in NY has always been better when I drive in.

As long as you don't have to be in Midtown or lower, driving in from the north is indeed easier. I live in Westchester County and it's a breeze going to the Upper West Side (or Harlem) by car, while it would be a pain going by train. You gotta spend some time with us B&T people, Theda, to get the hang of visiting the city's various places at various times by various means of transportation.

Daniela V wrote:
I always drive into NYC because I never had a problem parking- I'd rather have my car there, pay an astronomical figure to park in a garage, to come and go as a please, then to depend on mass transit...which is touch and go where I live in NJ (ie: trains run every couple of hours to NY- I'm not on the NE Corridor extension). Had I known parking would have been *that difficult* I would've tried to have made other arrangments. But, my experience in NY has always been better when I drive in.

The PATH runs 24 hours with trains every few minutes. Parking at the staion in JC, Hoboken or Newark is a good option.

My father insists on driving in and our average for finding parking within 10 blocks of our location is roughly 30 minutes.  I'm surprised you've found it so much easier.

Digital Al wrote:
IF you wanna get technical, Harlem starts at about 118th and end in the 150's. After that you have Sugar Hill and Manhattanville then you have Washington Heights which starts in the 160's.

Hailing a cab around there is not hard at all unless your trying to catch a yellow cab. The problem with the uptown cabbies is that if you dont speak spanish you will pay double!

Bed stuy is another world that we should not even mention. lol

I guess I should derfer to your uptownness, as I'm a below Central Park kinda girl. I just seem to recall my college friend telling me he lived on 140-somethingth in Washington Heights and everyone else I know considering that Washington Heights.

theda wrote:

The PATH runs 24 hours with trains every few minutes. Parking at the staion in JC, Hoboken or Newark is a good option.

My father insists on driving in and our average for finding parking within 10 blocks of our location is roughly 30 minutes.  I'm surprised you've found it so much easier.

I just have bad luck with transit other than my car- this includes airlines-trains-buses etc.

Jay Bowman wrote:
Lost in NYC?  They make it easy for you by numbering the streets...

Honestly, I can understand the apprehension and caution felt when in a place with which you are unfamiliar.  But I've never found parking in NYC to be a quick or pleasurable experience or Harlem to be particularly more dangerous than anywhere else.  I'm actually slightly more comfortable parking on the street with plenty of potential witnesses walking around as opposed to a parking garage out of sight.

If you get out of your car looking nervous and afriad, you're more likely to attract the attention you fear than if you simply walk around as if you belong there.  People are probably more concerned with their own business anyway.

Easy comments to make when you're a guy.....it's different for women and you have NO WAY of relating to that feeling.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

Well I never mentioned race but its hanging out there, people don't post their
stories about parking in Soho or Manhattan  and having to walk ten blocks.
She said it was rush hour so it wasn't that late.  I understand better then most
about living and working in the 'hood.'  I'm not sure if I were a women I'd go
walking by myself that distance.  So if it meant calling a cab with my cell or
waiting in my car untill one drove near me I might.  By the way I've been to
Harlem and it is not nearly what it used to be but it still can be rough.
Truth is I wouldn't want to walk ten blocks myself but what was really the point
of this post?  If you can't find parking and don't want to walk very far because
you don't feel safe then call say that and don't go.  I don't know if this has
a racial twist I just asked a question.  By the way to me this story does have
a bit of a nasty taste.  'My Harlem adventure.'  Hmmmm.

You didn't have to 'mention' race, your post was dripping with implications.  The point of the post was to share her story about what heppened, you and several others turned and twisted it into a race issue.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Oh if I felt you were a bigot I'd say so.  I'm not known for known for holding
back.  Maybe you just wanted to tell a intresting story.  However it does
have a certain feel to it.  Why not my New York adventure or such?
Like I said I've been to Harlem and I wasn't afraid but my wife was looking around
and she's from Chicago and is a tough girl.  I understand how you might have
felt but it was the title and story that has me queasy.  I often read funny
or intresting stories from people where they are bigots but would never own up to
it.  You seemed to still want to do the fitting but were a bit uneasy thats
understandable.

Why not leave her alone and take the story for what it is and leave it at that, honestly you need to get over it.  The title is just a title doesn't mean anything.

BasementStudios wrote:
Easy comments to make when you're a guy.....it's different for women and you have NO WAY of relating to that feeling.

I am a woman and I can't relate to that feeling either.

Niesha Studio wrote:
NYC now would get its ass kicked by NYC in the 80s.  Badly.

NYC now would get its ass kicked by Chicago now....It was funny to see all the shocked faces when I regaled my NYC friends of the gang hijinks in Chi-town. And, James Graham rocks! say hi for me.

Anyhow, I used to hang out in Detroit to go to some of the clubs about 15 years ago...and that puts any part of NYC to SHAME.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Well I never mentioned race but its hanging out there,

BasementStudios wrote:

Why not leave her alone and take the story for what it is and leave it at that, honestly you need to get over it.  The title is just a title doesn't mean anything.

She appears to be a big girl and I don't think she needs you to defend her.
I took issue with the title of her story and if I lived in Harlem I might also
as we all know, Harlem is known for its Black population.  I also have no
problem calling out someone for racist comments.  All to often I read innocent
stories that aren't all that innocent but thinly disquised bigoted remarks.  Note,
however I didn't call her or anyone else a bigot and believe me I would if I
felt that way.  I agreed with her that a long walk for a women through a strange
are could be scary.  Now to your question.  I don't any of us including me get
a free pass when we write or say questionable things.  People have a right to
ask what the hell you meant.  Its your choice to repond or not.  She explained
herself I said my stuff and its over.  Now we can all gang up on Eric for that
cartoon.  Just kidding.  Peace be with you.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Now we can all gang up on Eric for that cartoon.  Just kidding.  Peace be with you.

I didn't draw it.

Let's blame an Asian or a Mexican. I bet one of them drew it. Bastards!

Niesha Studio wrote:
NYC now would get its ass kicked by NYC in the 80s.  Badly.

everytime im in harlem, day or night, i feel like "Swan" from 'The Warriors' trying to get back Brooklyn

Chili wrote:
everytime im in harlem, day or night, i feel like "Swan" from 'The Warriors' trying to get back Brooklyn

"Warriooooooooors! Come to playayyyyyyyyyyyy! Warriooooooooors! Come to playayyyyyyyyyyyy! Warriooooooooors! Come to playayyyyyyyyyyyy!"

Must be one of the all-time most annoying, memorable and bizarrely-delivered lines of dialog in cinematic history.

HOW did the director say, "Great take! Cut! Print it!" on that!?

Bruce Caines wrote:

i gotta admit, the hair on the back of my neck got up a bit when i read the title and subsequent post. all issues aside regarding general concern for safety, i too find it interesting that the title of the post wasn't less..."provocative" for lack of a better word. i'm not saying daniela was trying to piss anyone off, but in reality this should have been more about "my crappy fitting adventure". i am sure people were immediately taking sides just based on the title. this is probably why some comments were more of a dig than "there, there..."

Mine stood up too.. I was like.. "Ahh.. It's about to be some ishhh up in here!"

CamelaC wrote:

Mine stood up too.. I was like.. "Ahh.. It's about to be some ishhh up in here!"

However.. I believe that she wasn't trying to start anything after I read the post. I wouldn't have walked in a strange area either... Well, I probably would have.. since it was rush hour. Someone would have had to walk me back though. ;-)

Monsante Bey wrote:
I didn't think her post was racial.

It's NY, it's dark, she's a woman alone, it's a neighborhood she doesn't know shit about.... How is that racial???

I can understand, because people hear the neighborhood and automatically think race. But hell it could be downtown LA, same situation, and even I would be a bit worried. lol Hell, I wouldn't even walk in Buckhead at night on a Friday by myself, especially for 10 blocks.

Sorry, I just don't see it this time. But I do see it in that cartoon.

This guy is always bringing that up. Never fails.

Monsante Bey wrote:
I didn't think her post was racial.

It's NY, it's dark, she's a woman alone, it's a neighborhood she doesn't know shit about.... How is that racial???

I can understand, because people hear the neighborhood and automatically think race. But hell it could be downtown LA, same situation, and even I would be a bit worried. lol Hell, I wouldn't even walk in Buckhead at night on a Friday by myself, especially for 10 blocks.

Sorry, I just don't see it this time. But I do see it in that cartoon.

Yeah.. I don't think she meant it either.. Buckhead, though? I hope you didn't mean the swanky Atlanta vanity city... As much police as there are in Buckhead.. those 10-15 Million dollar houses? Uh.. it's cool... Now Bankhead.. that's understandable. LOL

Model Sarah wrote:

This guy is always bringing that up. Never fails.

Don't know if you meant me but please note I agreeded with her walking through
any strange area as a woman by yourself is dicey.  I just felt and still do
the title of her little story was suspious.  Race continues to be a touchy subject
with many people including me.  There have been racist jokes posted here that
have been removed and often nasty things said about various minorities.
I asked what she meant, she explained it and things are cool.  You know if
I need to be that one person who always asks the hard questions about what
someone means when they post their expiences I don't mind that.  Not every
story or joke about any area or minority group is racist or bigoted but when
they seem to be so I'll ask.

Model Sarah wrote:
Unfortunately people associate Harlem with "mean streets of NY".....whatever that is.  It really isnt that bad. I actually thought it was rather nice when I was there.

you're right, i work there & i like it quite a bit. and while it isnt shangri-la, neither is anyplace else in nyc. one of nyc's "most wanted" perps is the east side raper who always strikes in the mayors own very rich nabe. so no place is really immune. but daniella's instinct was correct imho. not knowing the nabe, she played it safe. every nabe has preditors and harlems no exception. when your walking around lost, it shows- and that can be like an invitation to some people you'd rather not meet. these days crime in nyc is like nothing compared to in the 80s, even in the subway. but you still have to be aware of your surroundings and look like you know what your doing/where your going- which is hard to do if your lost.

ps to danielle- i've lived in manh almost 30 yrs & i still find parking here a major pain. there are times when getting carjacked would be a relief ;-)

Tony Lawrence wrote:

She appears to be a big girl and I don't think she needs you to defend her.
I took issue with the title of her story and if I lived in Harlem I might also
as we all know, Harlem is known for its Black population.  I also have no
problem calling out someone for racist comments.  All to often I read innocent
stories that aren't all that innocent but thinly disquised bigoted remarks.  Note,
however I didn't call her or anyone else a bigot and believe me I would if I
felt that way.  I agreed with her that a long walk for a women through a strange
are could be scary.  Now to your question.  I don't any of us including me get
a free pass when we write or say questionable things.  People have a right to
ask what the hell you meant.  Its your choice to repond or not.  She explained
herself I said my stuff and its over.  Now we can all gang up on Eric for that
cartoon.  Just kidding.  Peace be with you.

Bigotry, and all other such horrific comments are (or at least should be) noted based on a malicious intent... NOT on your perception of typed words that have no connotation or inflection to suggest otherwise.  Try expecting better of people.

I have had this problem about a million times.  Because I am a white female and because I generally don't see race or take it into consideration, I don't watch what I say around black people.  And sometimes they take offense to something that was never meant to be offensive, or that my other friends have never been offended by.  If she didn't maliciously choose to offend you than she is not a bigot. YOU took offense to her words but she did not mean to offend.