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model changed her mind //
had set up a shoot with a model we spoke on the phone for 3 hours discussed the whole shoot aggreed it would be a tfp/cd shoot ,that i would pay for her travel that is all writes today and says something came up ,cant shoot on the day we had set ,i offerd her the whole week of days 24 7 when we could shoot turns around and says she only does paid shoot now ,so if i want to pay her 100 a hour she will model for me im just fustrated i have been shooting for years and this is the first time ever this has happend to me i have had in the past some no shows or last minute cancealitions but this is a first i m just sounding off letting it out ...... thanks for listening peace gene corleto mm675 Dec 11 05 02:06 am Link I have had models pull the" Sorry, I only do paid shoots now" near shooting time of an agreed upon TFP/TFCD shoot. That earns them a black mark on my list. Meaning I never shoot with them unless they pay me. If they are doing only paid shoots now, they can afford it. I have models who I have not spoken to in years which I offered TFP/TFCD shoots to and they find me after all these years and I still do the promised TFP/TFCD shoot as agreed. When I make an offer like that it does not expire. I do not go back on my word. Dec 11 05 02:13 am Link It is called a hold-up, most commonly where the girl calls the day of and asks for more money. it is very popular in the porn industry, the models call up with the thought well, so and so doesn't want to waste the money they spent. Dec 11 05 03:05 am Link Star wrote: I would respond in that case with"I am glad I double booked, goodbye." Dec 11 05 03:07 am Link Here's my question, as I'm new. Photographers should double book shoots? But if the first model works out, doesn't that leave the second one hanging? How do you go about this the right way? Dec 11 05 06:47 am Link Please don't tell me that we are now going to beat up a model because she changed her mind and gave you ample warning. Please don't take this the wrong way, I understand that you are frustrated. You dealt with her professionally and you expected her to follow through. It sounds to me though, like she had a change of heart. TFP/CD is not a matter of right. NObody, photographer or model, has any kind of duty to shoot with another. TFP/CD is something that is agreed upon between the parties becasue they both want to do it. Imagine this, go to the car dealership, spend two hours with the salesman looking for a sedan that is greem, but he only has a green coup. You are almost ready to go with the coupe because it is a beautiful car and is nearly perfect. So you tell the salesman, in good faith that you are going home to call your bank and see what they can do about financing. You tell him you will be back at 3:00PM tomorrow. Instead, you call him and say you are sorry, you can really only buy a sedan. Would you expect the salesman to start a thread on the internet about those darned prospects that treat him so badly because they won't buy a coupe? It is the same thing. The girl has either decided that she wants to charge for her time right now or perhaps she just doesn't want to do TFP with you. OK, you are dissappointed, but come on, she didn't stand you up. There is no rule that says every model has to accept every TFP/CD (or paid job for that matter) that is thrown her way. Let's stop bashing models every time one says "no." Saying "no" is no big deal. We need to stop portraying it as an event. And for the record, and I want to say this loud and clear, I think that every time someone starts a thread complaining about a model, I think you make it that much harder to get models to shoot. If I were a model and I was having trouble getting paid shoots, I would be reluctant to do TFP if I knew that I might get myself bashed if I didn't do exactly what a photographer asked. I see so many threads where innocuous disagreements between a model and a photographer leads to a public argument over nothing. We all need to lighten up. You guys need models if you want to shoot so you need to find ways to get them interested in working, which means making it a positive experience and not a gauntlet. Dec 11 05 07:12 am Link Models go figure? Bill her for the phone time, and keep moving. If you paid for the airfare already I'd bitch and moan, but otherwise there are way too many models out here to let this bother you. Paul Dec 11 05 07:25 am Link Glamour Boulevard wrote: I've had it happen once about 2 months ago, thankfully I was able to find a back up on short notice (good to have friends...), and the model was shocked I passed on her (she was well aware the shoot involved 2 other models, that I had a MUA, wardrobe, location, etc. all lined up), then even tried to back off her demand, but at that point I concluded it wasn't worth the risk I'd be going through the whole scenario again at the studio or worse, end up shooting a model that was less than enthusiastic about being there... LOL. I may have worked with her under diff circumstances, but not now. It was the principle of being jacked literally hours before the shoot on previously agreed upon terms that got to me... Dec 11 05 07:26 am Link Alan from Aavian Prod wrote: Dec 11 05 07:38 am Link YOU MISSED THE PIONT THE POINT IS SHE AGREED TO TFP SAME AS IF I AGREED TO PAY YOU THEN I SHOT YOU AND SAID IM SORRY I DECIDED TO DO TFP INSTEAD ITS NOT RIGHT , IN MY LIFE OLD SCHOOL WE DO WHAT WE SAY WE ARE GOING TO DO NOT WHAT IF WE CHANGE OUR MIND AT THE LAST MINUTE THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT ALL I WAS JUST GET THE FUSTRATION OFF MY CHEST PEACE Dec 11 05 07:41 am Link gc productions wrote: Three hours to discuss a TFP shoot? I'm sure you just didn't provide enough information. Dec 11 05 08:31 am Link Alan from Aavian Prod wrote: "Changing her mind" and suddenly demanding money aren't the same thing. Actually, both actions are unprofessional, but one is tacky and unprofessional. Alan from Aavian Prod wrote: Try this one: You hire a plumber to fix your sink. He tells you his rates over the phone which you agree to, but when he arrives at your door, he informs you that it's going to cost an extra $200 labor to fix the same sink because his new girlfriend/manager dosen't think he should "give it away for free." Don't tell you you'd smile and whistle a happy tune, because you wouldn't. Alan from Aavian Prod wrote: Of couse she stood him up! I don't know how you work, but my experience is that a shoot starts days, sometimes weeks before the model arrives. I have a shoot today that involves an mua, a hair stylist, a driver and a location manager...If I call them up at the last moment to tell them the model changed her mind, they'll be justifiably P.O.ed. The fact that it's TFP is no excuse for unprofessional behavior. Alan from Aavian Prod wrote: I'm known thoroughout various forums as being the voice of not tolerating this kind of amateurish, high-school behavior from self-entitled wanabes, and I have no trouble finding people to work with...most of whom seek me out at this point because i have a reputation for professionalism and plain speaking that attracts talent of the same mindset. As far as I'm concerned, all "lightening up" does is enable the petty, childish antics of amateurs, wanabes and self-centered newbies who think the basic rules of professional interraction shouldn't apply to them because someone thinks they're "beautiful." The sooner photographers stop putting up with this nonsense and demand a higher standard of behavior from models, these human roadblocks will evaporate, making our jobs much easier. Dec 11 05 08:35 am Link Not much surprises me anymore. So, I tend shrug this stuff off and move on. I would rather they blew me off early than at the last minute. At least this way there is time to fill the open spot. And like someone else said previously...there are plenty of other models out there. Dec 11 05 08:42 am Link Internet promotion, both for and from models and photographers, has some inherent flaky elements to it. Message boards are good for venting, but venting won't change anything, except educate the brand-new people who happen to read it. Sometimes there's manure on the trail. Sometimes you'll avoid it, and sometimes you'll step in it. Scrape it off and keep walking. Dec 11 05 08:48 am Link Far West Imaging wrote: I concur. Dec 11 05 09:00 am Link Melvin Moten Jr wrote: Wow. That almost described TFP perfectly. Dec 11 05 09:02 am Link Even though I'm not directly involved, I am privvy to this particular situation and its not just the case of a model changing her mind. In this particular situation the model was excited about doing the tfp shoot because she had no experience, she then shot with another photographer who became her "manager" and got her to cancel all of her prior commitments for tfp and or test shoots. Just another case of bad advice to hurt the model's reputation. All I can say is Israel, you should know better. Dec 11 05 09:10 am Link cute girls are entitled to do as they wish...it is a law of nature which can not be bent...conversely, being as HOT and HANDSOM of a photographer as i am, i have NEVER experienced this problem. Dec 11 05 09:12 am Link People do change thier minds but two things stand out to me with your situation. The first is "3 Hours" ..........damn.......I think after 45 minutes or so she changed her mind and was just talking to appease you. Her calling and saying she will only do pay....well......that tells you that she is still free so she is not doing this because of another shoot or she is busy. Asking for pay....well.....i bet she picked a number she figured would be too high for you or just within your range and if you said yes she probably would have had other things in mind to say if you did say yes. Basically one thing is models do change thier minds and its not something you can control BUT if it is the first time your shooting with the model DO NOT SPEND ANY MONEY for the shoot. When you get by the first shoot and she seems ok and she thinks your ok and you both want to do a second shoot (tfp or pay) then spend some money for the shoot. What you should do is work on getting all the info you need for the shoot in the first 30 minutes or less. If the conversation goes beyond that then it should not really have too much to do with the shoot. 3 hours to discuss a shoot is ........not sure what to call it, its pretty far out there for tfp or pay shoot for it to take that long. For myself if i was on the phone discussing a shoot for more than 15-30 minutes i would just say goodbye and hang up. 3 hours from a models point of view is that you are one VERY lonely guy and probably looking for companionship and she is not looking for that, she just wants a shoot. So she cancelled. From a photogs point of view 3 hours is .........not sure what to say but you should know her health history, medical history, dental problems and skin problems and parents issues and friends names and address's ..................get my drift? Just way to long. EDIT: DOnt get me wrong i am not putting you down or degrading you at all. I am just pointing out that 3 hours is just way to long to discuss a shoot. You get the details you need and tell her what she needs to bring, thats about all you need. All sh eis gonna do is come there and stand how you tell her to stand, the model dont need to know any more than that. Give her a few details on the content of the shoot, outfits, makeup. Find out what she can bring with her and what you will provide for the shoot. Length of the shoot and tfp or pay, CD/photos and when they will be provided. Those are a few of the basic things, there are others but not too much, nowhere near 3 hours worth. Dec 11 05 09:25 am Link Melvin Moten Jr wrote: Melvin, in the end all she did was to change her mind. I am not saying she is right or wrong and I won't wade into the debate, but it was certainly her right to change her mind. Dec 11 05 10:14 am Link Hmmmmmmmm case of too big for there britches syndrome...... I had a model I wanted to work with for awhile and we had talked about shooting. We met and shot for a whole 15 mins at a group shoot. Then we talked for awhile afterward about setting up a shoot on a TFCD. Well she shot with like 4 other photogs on a TFCD basis and then told me some story about hubby wanted her to do just paid. I knew this wasnt true......so I told her no thanks 3 years went by and I get a email from her wanting to do a TFCD shoot and I reminded her about her wanting to charge me. I told her I was doing paid only and wasnt interested in TFCD with her. Isnt Karma Grand!!  Dec 11 05 10:28 am Link It happens. My feelings: >>> I work in my home -- I move all the furniture out of the living room & move in the studio equipment; this process takes me an hour or so to set up. If a model cancels or changes her plans before I start tearing apart my house, I'm okay. If this happens fairly rarely, then there's no penalty to the model. I'd rather reschedule than work with someone who isn't feeling well, for example. >>> If someone wants to renegotiate the terms of our agreement, I suppose that's their perogative, but once we have a clear understanding, I am not likely to agree to terms that are less favorable to me. If someone wants something more from me, then I want to know what they are willing to give me (more) in compensation. Listen: sometimes "no deal" is the right answer. >>> Here's another reason why I don't do TFP/CD. My time is valuable to me, and I am not pleased when someone wastes my time. But as an empathetic person, I assume that a model's time is valuable to her and that she deserves to be compensated fairly for loaning me her time to my artistic process. Bottom line: want to avoid problems like this? Consider paying your models in the first place. A paid model is less likely to do something like this. (I remember seeing an interview with Terrill Owen's agent, where he said that his client is having a terrific year, and of course it's within his rights to ask for a renegotiated contract. I wonder, if he was having a poor year, would it have been okay to pay him less? Anyway, things worked out for T.O., didn't they?) Dec 11 05 10:37 am Link Looknsee Photography wrote: Seems to be working out exactly as his professionalism has promoted his career. Dec 11 05 11:54 am Link starmodels wrote: HAHAHAHA!!!! Dec 11 05 12:19 pm Link Seeing that everyone that has posted so far has been a photographer.... lets turn the tables. Say it is the photographer that has agreed to do the shoot and within a moment's notice says that he now has to charge the model for time. The model would be equally pissed about it... correct? The point is that no matter what, there needs to be a level of professionalism between the model and the photographer. The model and photog have made commitments to each other to do this shoot and should do their aboslute best to make certain that there is follow through. I could see if something REAL were to have come up with either party but in the end trying for Highway Robbery is nothing short of a) wasting the valuable time and resources of the photog and b) taking away from those models out there that would have taken a serious and enthusiastic approach to following through. Saying "It's no big deal" is like daddy telling child that driving the new Benz into the wall is ok because daddy can just get a new one. Anyone heard of accountability? Dec 11 05 02:13 pm Link Mach V Speed wrote: If I double book I book them at seperate times that day. I may have them overlap by 30 minutes or so just because they might be up for a few dual model shots. Dec 11 05 02:19 pm Link Star wrote: this happens in vegas a lot as well, and cost me thousands. Dec 11 05 02:20 pm Link Mach V Speed wrote: back when I was doing lots of shooting, I always "double booked' as people call it. And It worked.... Dec 11 05 02:29 pm Link Mach V Speed wrote: If TFP, shoot them both. While one is changing, shoot the second. If they are professonals, they generally won't mind shooting together. However, I've had some 'cat' fights occur in the latter example. On the other hand, the competition that occurs between the two models can result in a better photoshoot opportunity. /t Dec 11 05 02:32 pm Link If you say you will do something then do it. None of this last minute b.s. While we all have the right to change our minds as one poster mentioned if a photographer did it we would string him alive. It goes back to personal integrity. Be as good as your word or don't make any promises. Dec 11 05 02:42 pm Link I had a photographer pull that line today after discussing working together for TFCD. That was very unprofessional of the photographer. Dec 11 05 03:12 pm Link On another site I saw they do a "Name and Shame" post. Now I stress this is for both photogs and models. This can get ugly but it seems to weed out the wannabes and gwc quickly. Aaron Dec 11 05 03:23 pm Link My only thought on this whole 'no-show/call-n-cancel' mess is that if you are going to agree to show up or shoot tfp/cd, or whatever the details might be, at least have the common courtesy to follow through with the plans you agreed to. If some event happens that would warrant for a cancelation, then it would be more than justifiable. i.e. Found substantial evidence that he/she was a creep, or whatever. Case in point. I just got back from a outdoor shoot. It was fricking cold out there and the two of us froze our butts off getting a few portraits. By all means, when I walked outside and felt how cold it was, I would have more than understood if the model wanted to reschedule. But she didn't and the shoot not only turned out well, but was very comical because we were freezing. Call me old school or whatever have you. But that is just the way I see it. Dec 11 05 03:24 pm Link ON THE PHONE WASNT DECIDING ON IF THE MODEL SHOULD DO TFP OR NOT THE MODEL DID DECIDE TO DO TFP AS THE MODEL HAD EMAILED ME TO SAY SO THE MODEL HAD ASKED ME TO CALL TO DISCUSS THE SHOOT AND WHERE AND WHAT, AND ALSO THE MODEL HAD ASKED OTHER INFORMATION ABOUT USING THE SITE ,ABOUT SHOOTING WITH OTHER PHOTOGS AND OTHER GENERAL INFORATION ABOUT STARTING OUT MODELING BECAUSE IF SOMEONE ASKS ME A QUESTION OR ASKS MY ADVICE I GENERALY GIVE THEM THE INFO THEY ARE LOOKING FOR OR I CONTACT SOMEOTHER PHOTOGS THAT I KNOW THAT KNOW THE AWNSER Dec 11 05 03:38 pm Link SO THE 3 HOURS WAS NOT JUST TO DISCUSS THE TFP SHOOT MOST OF THE TIME WHEN I AM ASKED TO DO A TFP SHOOT IT IS ONLY A 15 MINUTES CONVERSATION PEACE Dec 11 05 03:40 pm Link gc productions wrote: ha, that's something to drive you crazy!!! "Someone told me i should be doing paid shoots becuase I LOOK SOO GOOD, so i changed my mind" AHHHH..I would smack her! lol Dec 11 05 03:44 pm Link area291 wrote: I'm sure they were discussing ideas and talking about the industry all together. I talk hours on the phone with my clients, too. Someone told her she shouldn't because why would she change her mind? Dec 11 05 03:46 pm Link gc productions wrote: whoops i should have read your response first! Dec 11 05 03:47 pm Link Happened to me too. Oh well, it doesn't hurt my portfolio any and their's certainly isn't improved. As long as you were courteous, then that is all that you coould have done. Dec 11 05 03:49 pm Link Semora wrote: I'd much prefer the three hour conversation over the 15 minute "here's what to bring" instructional conversation. It is like a job interview... I'd rather that I be allowed the opportunity to get to know the other person on a one on one basis.... even if it is about nothing important.... then to have them look at my resume, ask me a question and then hang up. Dec 11 05 05:05 pm Link |
