Forums > General Industry > model changed her mind //

Photographer

glenn my name today

Posts: 1025

Lancaster, California, US

take her out back and shoot her.

end of problem.

badabing badaboom.

bye bye bad model.

This discussion really has solved nothing.

Dec 11 05 05:08 pm Link

Photographer

Monsante Bey

Posts: 2111

Columbus, Georgia, US

maybe it was something within the three hour convo that made her change her mind about wanting to do the shoot, so she decided to charge a high rate knowing that he wouldn't take it?

We're dealing with illogical, unstable people here when it comes to new models/test subjects.

Dec 11 05 05:10 pm Link

Model

Brandon Smith

Posts: 1562

San Diego, California, US

Monsante Bey wrote:
maybe it was something within the three hour convo that made her change her mind about wanting to do the shoot, so she decided to charge a high rate knowing that he wouldn't take it?

We're dealing with illogical, unstable people here when it comes to new models/test subjects.

If that were the case I'd have laughed had the photog fallen for the bait .... the photoshoot would be titled "deer in the headlights, part 1".

There are more dignified responses that are a little more failproof than just "here are my new rates"..... like "my dog died", "my makeup was eaten by my babysister" or maybe.... "I've had something come up and I'm afraid I won't be able to reshoot with you".

Dec 11 05 05:13 pm Link

Photographer

Monsante Bey

Posts: 2111

Columbus, Georgia, US

Brandon Smith wrote:

If that were the case I'd have laughed had the photog fallen for the bait .... the photoshoot would be titled "deer in the headlights, part 1".

There are more dignified responses that are a little more failproof than just "here are my new rates"..... like "my dog died", "my makeup was eaten by my babysister" or maybe.... "I've had something come up and I'm afraid I won't be able to reshoot with you".

Did you not read my last line? lol

Dec 11 05 06:33 pm Link

Photographer

Kentsoul

Posts: 9739

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US

area291 wrote:
Wow.  That almost described TFP perfectly.

TFP is an amateur practice period.  While it can help build one to a level of professional value, there is no professional value in the practice.  When people kick and scream about the inequities it's like screaming foul at a pick-up basketball game and bitching because there aren't professional level referrees or high powered instant replay for review.

There is nothing professional about TFP.  It is Time For Pretending to go through the motions.  Flakes, amateurish, high-school behavior from self-entitled wanabes just comes with that territory, on both sides of the lens.  Accept the crap that comes with it and move on because bitchin' about it on a message board is about as stupid as expecting to step up for free throws in a playground 3-on-3 game.  It makes people look foolish when they have been fouled.  Side out, next play...

The fact that no money changes hand when I do my work doesn't affect the attitude to with i go about my business.  In the grownup world, courtesy and decorum aren't for sale...That attitude only arises from those who can't see past the dollar sign.  Courtesy and professionalism are for everybody, no matter what their balance sheet says.

Dec 11 05 06:47 pm Link

Model

Brandon Smith

Posts: 1562

San Diego, California, US

Monsante Bey wrote:
Did you not read my last line? lol

Yeah... I was so unstable at the moment I fell off my chair ;-) Just reinforcing your point (like being the middle cheerleader in a pyramid!)

Dec 11 05 06:51 pm Link

Photographer

Kentsoul

Posts: 9739

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:

Melvin, in the end all she did was to change her mind.  I am not saying she is right or wrong and I won't wade into the debate, but it was certainly her right to change her mind.

You're right...she does have a right to change her mind.  And serious people trying to do serious work [whether money changes hands or not] have a right to do their work without vasilating, insecure nonsense.

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
My interest is singular, a model cancelling is not a newsworthy event.  The more you thump your chest the less interested models become in doing TFP.

It's not "chest thumping" to expect adults to behave professionally in a business situation.  The fact is, most of the model agencies I've dealt with have the same attitude towards flake models that I do...Their antics drag this whole business down.

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
It makes no difference to me.  I don't do TFP.  I pay talent so I have a totally different set of problems to deal with.  The issue is not so much TFP as it is the Internet, but that is irrelevant too.

I don't pay models at all...and I still don't have "probelms" to deal with.  I've learned to spot flakes and self-absorbed wanabes from a distance.  I don't remember the last time I had a "stand up" or "flake out" because I'm careful and thorough in my scouting and planning.  As I said before, people seek me out more often than not anymore because they want what my particular skillset offers them.
I suppose I could get into the money game, but it really dosen't interest me -- I'm quite happy doing the work i want with the people i choose.

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
There is too much of an us against them mentality. That is part of why models change their minds.

Models don't change their minds.  Flakes and immature wannabes do.  As far as I'm concerned it is us against them when their destructive, unprofessional behavior is involved.

Dec 11 05 06:56 pm Link

Model

Brandon Smith

Posts: 1562

San Diego, California, US

I think Melvin summed it up pretty well.....

The key to all of this is that a level of professionalism should be expected from professionals.  "Flakes and immature wannabes" are not professionals and inherently take away from those that are willing to be serious, the ability to do their jobs and do them well. 

Wannabe Models (and Photogs) need to take note that they are to be held accountable for their actions (and their lack of action) should they wish to be taken seriously. 

And as for Alan mentioning that "a model cancelling is not a newsworthy event", maybe if a model (or photog) were to understand more the reprecushions (I can't spell tonight) of doing such without a substantial reason or without substantial notice, then there might be less of it.  By sitting around saying "oh well" or "its ok" we're only allowing the behaviour to continue.

Dec 11 05 07:14 pm Link

Model

theda

Posts: 21719

New York, New York, US

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Alan.  How much notice did the model give that she  was no longer interested in working with you for free?  We have a lot of people here assuming this was a "last minute" cancellaton, but if she gave you more than a couple of days notice that she couldn't shoot on that day and wouldn't reschedule a TFP, then you have nothing legitimate to bitch about. There's nothing unprofessional about it.

EVERYONE changes their minds, not just "flakes and immature wannabes." I've changed and cancelled shoots with several days' notice.

And STOP TYPING IN ALL CAPS.

Dec 11 05 07:31 pm Link

Model

Brandon Smith

Posts: 1562

San Diego, California, US

Either way it was still done rather unprofessionally.  Think about it.... You're getting prepared for a shoot, model is willing to do it unpaid.  Everything is fine and dandy.... things going along smoothly.  Then she/he comes back (whether last minute or not) and says "I no longer do free work"... no money = no shoot.  If that is professional then standards are seriously slipping.

Dec 11 05 07:37 pm Link

Model

theda

Posts: 21719

New York, New York, US

Brandon Smith wrote:
Either way it was still done rather unprofessionally.  Think about it.... You're getting prepared for a shoot, model is willing to do it unpaid.  Everything is fine and dandy.... things going along smoothly.  Then she/he comes back (whether last minute or not) and says "I no longer do free work"... no money = no shoot.  If that is professional then standards are seriously slipping.

We don't know much about the situation, but when last I checked turning down shoots was pretty standard, especially TFP.  Big deal. She changed her mind.  Everyone has had a free shoot cancelled and I bet many of them could have been rescheduled for the canceller's standard rate.

Dec 11 05 07:45 pm Link

Model

Brandon Smith

Posts: 1562

San Diego, California, US

What I'm saying though is that it is pretty lackluster that someone can get away with it so bluntly.  We don't know much about the situation, however, it has become more of an overall dictation about professionalism.  As I mentioned earlier... say it was the photographer doing the same thing.  You're going to do a free shoot with him.... you've discussed the particulars, you're ready to go.  Without warning he comes back and says..."You know what, I only do paid shoots now...."  The photog has now wasted your time (which is inherently valuable) at the expense of his of course.  The same rings true with the model at hand.  Had the photog said "the model came to me a week before and mentioned that she had some personal issues at home, I need to cancel" then that would have been one thing..... but her reasoning was off key.  And it wasted a professionals time in the mean time.  And it is THAT kind of unprofessionalism that ruins it for those models and photogs out there that are willing to stand by their commitments.

Underpromise and overdeliver.

Dec 11 05 07:52 pm Link

Photographer

Valkyrur

Posts: 1187

Nelsonville, New York, US

"model changed her mind"
that sounds very redundant ....

Dec 11 05 09:06 pm Link

Photographer

Kentsoul

Posts: 9739

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US

Louis Braga wrote:
"model changed her mind"
that sounds very redundant ....

*snicker*

Dec 12 05 04:23 am Link

Photographer

Kentsoul

Posts: 9739

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US

Brandon Smith wrote:
What I'm saying though is that it is pretty lackluster that someone can get away with it so bluntly.  We don't know much about the situation, however, it has become more of an overall dictation about professionalism.  As I mentioned earlier... say it was the photographer doing the same thing.  You're going to do a free shoot with him.... you've discussed the particulars, you're ready to go.  Without warning he comes back and says..."You know what, I only do paid shoots now...."  The photog has now wasted your time (which is inherently valuable) at the expense of his of course.  The same rings true with the model at hand.  Had the photog said "the model came to me a week before and mentioned that she had some personal issues at home, I need to cancel" then that would have been one thing..... but her reasoning was off key.  And it wasted a professionals time in the mean time.  And it is THAT kind of unprofessionalism that ruins it for those models and photogs out there that are willing to stand by their commitments.

Underpromise and overdeliver.

I think you've got it exactly right.  Why it's so hard for people to understand how unprofessional it is beats me.

Dec 12 05 04:24 am Link

Photographer

Kentsoul

Posts: 9739

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US

theda wrote:
I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Alan.  How much notice did the model give that she  was no longer interested in working with you for free?  We have a lot of people here assuming this was a "last minute" cancellaton, but if she gave you more than a couple of days notice that she couldn't shoot on that day and wouldn't reschedule a TFP, then you have nothing legitimate to bitch about. There's nothing unprofessional about it.

EVERYONE changes their minds, not just "flakes and immature wannabes." I've changed and cancelled shoots with several days' notice.

And STOP TYPING IN ALL CAPS.

Where I come from, when you say you're going to be somewhere and do something, you do it.  The idea that expecting someone to live up to a committment [which is what agreeing to a shoot is:  making a committment] is somehow unreasonable bewilders me. 

Is this how they do things in "the industry" that everyone talks about?  This "changing my mind" stuff never seems to happen in the unprofessional, pornographic TFP fetish circles I travel in.

Dec 12 05 04:29 am Link

Model

Mayanlee

Posts: 3560

New City, New York, US

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:

Melvin, in the end all she did was to change her mind.  I am not saying she is right or wrong and I won't wade into the debate, but it was certainly her right to change her mind.

My interest is singular, a model cancelling is not a newsworthy event.  The more you thump your chest the less interested models become in doing TFP.

It makes no difference to me.  I don't do TFP.  I pay talent so I have a totally different set of problems to deal with.  The issue is not so much TFP as it is the Internet, but that is irrelevant too.

There is too much of an us against them mentality. That is part of why models change their minds.

Alan, I have to disagree with part of this.  I agree so far that in it of itself, and relative to really bad news, this is on the same level as farting in terms of importance to most of us.

However, the practice of the "bait and switch" is unconscionable. "Just changing her mind" demonstrates a complete lack of understanding basic business practices, personal ethics and consideration on a human level.  If she can't think one or two steps ahead to figure out the ramifications of making an oral agreement, she has no business entering into any agreements at all.  Trust is tantamount to successful commerce of any kind. Binding written contracts took over when the handshake no longer sufficed, but trust that the transaction would take place as agreed upon is ensured by the written contract.  If someone conducts business and does neither (neither demonstrates personal integrity nor provides a written contract), the basis of all sustainable business practices collapses.

Maybe gc spent considerable time and money and personal effort in setting things up ... maybe he didn't. The level of angst he is experiencing has nothing to do with the fact that the model's actions are simply wrong from an ethical viewpoint. And it's not necessarily the "what she did" as the "HOW she did it." We can all appreciate that we all need to work and make money. But if you contract with a person to shoot tfp, or whatever the terms are, there has to be a compelling reason why you're going to change the terms.  There has to be time and consideration given as recompense for changing the terms or options offered to the injured party.  And with plenty of notice!!!  I do not waste other people's time and I suffer no one to waste mine. That's red flag #1 in demonstrating a person's standard of personal integrity and ethics.

I could go on, but I'll stop boring everyone.

GC... please... stop shouting .... turn the caps off.

Dec 12 05 04:49 am Link

Photographer

American Glamour

Posts: 38813

Detroit, Michigan, US

Mayanlee wrote:
However, the practice of the "bait and switch" is unconscionable. "Just changing her mind" demonstrates a complete lack of understanding basic business practices, personal ethics and consideration on a human level.

First, thank you for disagreeing.  I like to see more than one viewpoint.

Second, if I thought for a minute this was a bait and switch then I would be as disturbed as anyone else.  I think she just changed her mind and that I think she has the right to do.  I think it often poor judgement, but we are not hearing from her.  We don't know what her reasons were and to condemn her based on a one sided story is wrong.  I suspect there are two sides to it.

In the end though, this is nothing more than a cancellation with notice.

My issue is not that there was a cancellation, but that every time a model does something a photographer doesn't like, we end up with a two page thread about how unprofessional that model was, which expands into how unprofessional all models are.  And that is where I take exception.

This comment, I think, illustrates my point:

Louis Braga wrote:
"model changed her mind"
that sounds very redundant ....

And Louis, I am not ganging up on you here, so please don't take it that way.   I don't think your comment was meant to be as hostile as I am going to make it out to be, but to an outsider, it would sound that way.

Let's reword the statement a couple of ways :  "Polish girl changed her mind"
that sounds very redundant
.... or "Black girl changed her mind"
that sounds very redundant
.... or the most common; "blond girl changed her mind"

If Louis had said that, we'd have the NAACP, the anti-defamation league or the National Organization of Women, would be screaming at us on the site and they wouldn't be wrong.  It is a biggoted statement (although Louis, I think you were just meaning to be light spirited).

I am not condoning what she did, although I don't know her side.  But I don't think it was a bait and switch.  To be a bait and switch, it would have had to be planned that way and I am sure it was not.

But it was not a newsworthy event.  If I were a professional model, I would see no reason to ever accept an assignment, let alone a TFP assignment, if I knew I would subject myself to such public ridicule if I had a disagreement with a photographer.

And that alone is my point.  Not that she was right or wrong or the photographer was right or wrong as well, but that it was a private matter that does not deserve such attention. While her name was not mentioned, comments like Louis and the tone of the thread makes all models out to be lying, cheating, flakes that cannot be trusted, and we both know that isn't the case as well.  Photographers can be just as difficult, but when a model starts a similar thread, she is pounded on by the world.

Enough of a rant and thanks for the comments.

Dec 12 05 06:14 am Link

Model

Mayanlee

Posts: 3560

New City, New York, US

True enough, about perpetuating the stereotypes, even while under the guise of "humor." We have no statistical numbers (as far as I know) to substantiate that models are flakier than any other demographic other than the annecdotal stuff we get here. The only thing I'd change is that when griping about how "unprofessional" someone turned out to be is to re-align the paradigm.  They're "unprofessional" cuz they ain't "professionals" ... they're amateurs... in both conduct and experience.  Even this isn't really worth mentioning; I have other things to worry about in my own little world rather than what someone else did that doesn't really affect me.  Callous attitude perhaps, but I'm all for natural selection in this. The poor ones are thinned out of the crowd continuously and despite some time lost, hopefully we just become a little more discerning with each experience and learn to avoid the landmines and just progress for ourselves.

Dec 12 05 06:36 am Link

Photographer

Bryan Benoit

Posts: 2106

Miami, Florida, US

Once you make an agreement you should follow up on it. In my 'real job' (the one that pays my bills) it would be unthinkable to change our minds once we make a deal. That would be the end of our business relationship.

Of course I am not 100% innocent. A couple of months ago I did cancel a shoot 1 hour before. I think I had a good reason (I have to take my niece to the emergency room) but I still feel rotten about it... and the model hates me for it

Dec 12 05 06:56 am Link

Model

Brandon Smith

Posts: 1562

San Diego, California, US

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
While her name was not mentioned, comments like Louis and the tone of the thread makes all models out to be lying, cheating, flakes that cannot be trusted, and we both know that isn't the case as well.  .....

Alan I think I'd have to say that you missed the boat on this one.  The overall tone of this thread has not become "the model did this" but the underlying problem with unprofessionalism in the workplace.  I agree that we probably do not know the full spectrum of the situation however, the fact of the matter is that the model COMMITTED to a photo shoot.  Model changed her mind (whether last minute or not) after considerable amount of time (at least in the eyes of the photographer) had been invested into the shoot.  But what strikes me is that the model didn't change her mind because she felt uncomfortable, had a family emergency, etc... but because she now wanted money and felt compelled to ask for it.  Herein lies the unprofessionalism. 

I don't think that anyone has generalized models as a whole but has used this particular model to make a point.  This model has just become the unlucky beating pole that is going to take the strikes for this case.  (I could probably guarantee that she won't be working with that particular photographer too)

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
But it was not a newsworthy event.  If I were a professional model, I would see no reason to ever accept an assignment, let alone a TFP assignment, if I knew I would subject myself to such public ridicule if I had a disagreement with a photographer......

Maybe if these kinds of things WERE made more public than those making the commitments would put a great bit more thought into making commitments they were going to keep... In my original business, and I'm certain in just about every other business..... not keeping your word is not exactly the best thing for your reputation.  If this is something that is standard in the modeling/photography world AND this is an accepted practice than that is one thing (though I won't agree to it being beneficial to any party) but if someone takes the time to stand up to the issue at hand and makes a point of it then it stands to be heard. 

The point at hand?  Either put more thought into your committments when you make them (and keep them if you do) or don't make them at all.  Can anyone argue with that?

Dec 12 05 10:12 am Link

Photographer

area291

Posts: 2525

Calabasas, California, US

I think everyone missed the boat here.  Professionalism and the expectations of those and this site is a contradictory of terms.  If professionalism is the tolerant for which those stand...well, we have people talking out of both sides of their ass thinking this community speaks of modeling industry professional behaviour and all that is expected.  Speaking of...

Back to the thread, "Do women fart?"

Dec 12 05 11:35 am Link

Photographer

J C ModeFotografie

Posts: 14718

Los Angeles, California, US

Many, many fish in the sea!

Dec 12 05 11:43 am Link

Photographer

C R Photography

Posts: 3594

Pleasanton, California, US

If you agree to a TFP, do the TFP or become labeled as a flake.

This is why http://www.theibl.com was created and is being used.

Mind change might be too much for this list, but it gets the point across.

I had a model do the same thing to me, however a few weeks afterwards, she wrote a sob story begging to work with me.

I blew her off identifying her unprofessional behavior.

Hey, what comes around goes around!

Dec 12 05 11:52 am Link

Photographer

Kentsoul

Posts: 9739

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US

area291 wrote:
I think everyone missed the boat here.  Professionalism and the expectations of those and this site is a contradictory of terms.  If professionalism is the tolerant for which those stand...well, we have people talking out of both sides of their ass thinking this community speaks of modeling industry professional behaviour and all that is expected.  Speaking of...

Back to the thread, "Do women fart?"

I've never experienced anything less than totally professional and positive experiences from the models I've worked with who belong to this site.  I can't say the same for "industry," "land-based" or "agency" models I've worked with.  Perhaps the moral is that you get what you give.  Respect and professional courtesy are two-way streets where I come from.

Dec 12 05 11:57 am Link

Model

Mayanlee

Posts: 3560

New City, New York, US

area291 wrote:
I think everyone missed the boat here.  Professionalism and the expectations of those and this site is a contradictory of terms.  If professionalism is the tolerant for which those stand...well, we have people talking out of both sides of their ass thinking this community speaks of modeling industry professional behaviour and all that is expected.

The problem I have with this is that the two theoretically should NOT be mutually exclusive of each other.

area291 wrote:
Back to the thread, "Do women fart?"

I do ...

Anyone gotta match?

Dec 12 05 11:57 am Link

Model

Mayanlee

Posts: 3560

New City, New York, US

glenn usdin wrote:
take her out back and shoot her.

end of problem.

badabing badaboom.

bye bye bad model.

This discussion really has solved nothing.

You're so Sopranos, Glenn...

OK... I admit,.... I'm diggin' it.

Dec 12 05 11:58 am Link

Photographer

Vito

Posts: 4582

Brooklyn, New York, US

theda wrote:
I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Alan.  How much notice did the model give that she  was no longer interested in working with you for free?  We have a lot of people here assuming this was a "last minute" cancellaton, but if she gave you more than a couple of days notice that she couldn't shoot on that day and wouldn't reschedule a TFP, then you have nothing legitimate to bitch about. There's nothing unprofessional about it.

EVERYONE changes their minds, not just "flakes and immature wannabes." I've changed and cancelled shoots with several days' notice.

And STOP TYPING IN ALL CAPS.

The amount of time is irrevelvent here. The underlying act is not that she changed her mind and called to cancel, she decided, after agreeing to a TFP, that she'd try to get money for the shoot. She didn't call to cancel, she called to give her price or she's walking notice, which may have been a bluff. I whole-heartedly support anyones right to change their mind to shoot, but that's not what she did here. It was closer to (but not) extortion. GC had the arrangements, may have put some work into prepping and she thought, "oh yeah, he'll pay what I'm asking, after all, I had one whole shoot under my belt now. I don't need this TFP thing." What if GC was scheduled to shoot her first. I don't think she would have pulled this. And assuming GC didn't advise her to start charging, the second photographer wouldn't have had this problem either.

Dec 12 05 12:00 pm Link

Photographer

Vito

Posts: 4582

Brooklyn, New York, US

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:

Melvin, in the end all she did was to change her mind.  I am not saying she is right or wrong and I won't wade into the debate, but it was certainly her right to change her mind.

No, she didn't just change her mind. She thought she'd extort money from a photographer who she already agreed to shoot with. Since they did exchange calls/emails for a good amount of time, the shoot was probably explained to her, the details, what GC was going to prep and she figures (past the point of no return for GC) she'll call and say what was supposed to be free, by verbal agreement, is now going to be charged. What he should have done was shot and paid her then given her NOTHING! He paid for the shoot, she's now not entitled to a thing from it.

Dec 12 05 12:03 pm Link

Photographer

Vito

Posts: 4582

Brooklyn, New York, US

area291 wrote:

Wow.  That almost described TFP perfectly.

TFP is an amateur practice period.  While it can help build one to a level of professional value, there is no professional value in the practice.  When people kick and scream about the inequities it's like screaming foul at a pick-up basketball game and bitching because there aren't professional level referrees or high powered instant replay for review.

There is nothing professional about TFP.  It is Time For Pretending to go through the motions.  Flakes, amateurish, high-school behavior from self-entitled wanabes just comes with that territory, on both sides of the lens.  Accept the crap that comes with it and move on because bitchin' about it on a message board is about as stupid as expecting to step up for free throws in a playground 3-on-3 game.  It makes people look foolish when they have been fouled.  Side out, next play...

That was one of the most un-intelligent replies I've ever read. Whether you like it or not, TFPs exist. For the model, they will get her images for her book that will in turn get her jobs. For the photographer, he gets some images and may be testing new equipment (body, lens, lighting, style). If you don't think people should post messages complaining/questioning/commenting on things that happen to them in their endeveours in photography, then why are you here? Don't let the door hit you on the *ss on the way out.

Dec 12 05 12:07 pm Link

Photographer

Lost Coast Photo

Posts: 2691

Ferndale, California, US

Mach V Speed wrote:
Here's my question, as I'm new.

Photographers should double book shoots?
But if the first model works out, doesn't that leave the second one hanging?

How do you go about this the right way?

Double booking in the literal sense isn't really fair.  But there's nothing to stop you from setting time slots and booking models for say, 9:00am, 12:00 noom, 3:00pm... etc.

Dec 12 05 12:16 pm Link

Model

theda

Posts: 21719

New York, New York, US

Vito wrote:
No, she didn't just change her mind. She thought she'd extort money from a photographer who she already agreed to shoot with. Since they did exchange calls/emails for a good amount of time, the shoot was probably explained to her, the details, what GC was going to prep and she figures (past the point of no return for GC) she'll call and say what was supposed to be free, by verbal agreement, is now going to be charged. What he should have done was shot and paid her then given her NOTHING! He paid for the shoot, she's now not entitled to a thing from it.

That would be a sweet deal for her. She decided he wasn't up to snuff for TFP. She gave him the option to hire her.  Still doesn't seem like such a big deal to me.

Dec 12 05 12:24 pm Link

Photographer

Vito

Posts: 4582

Brooklyn, New York, US

theda wrote:

That would be a sweet deal for her. She decided he wasn't up to snuff for TFP. She gave him the option to hire her.  Still doesn't seem like such a big deal to me.

Not to you, but to  the OP who was prepared for a shoot, it was. And just letting it go with a casual attitude perpetuates the idea that it's fine for all the models on MM to agree to TFP/CD and then "change their minds" to try to extort money (I don't mean extort in the illegal sense).

And for the ones who were arguing over the "model change her mind" being redundant, I think what they really meant was it was an oxymoron, like "giant shrimp"  .

Dec 12 05 12:34 pm Link

Photographer

fitpix

Posts: 93

Prospect, Ohio, US

Vito wrote:

That was one of the most un-intelligent replies I've ever read. Whether you like it or not, TFPs exist. For the model, they will get her images for her book that will in turn get her jobs. For the photographer, he gets some images and may be testing new equipment (body, lens, lighting, style). If you don't think people should post messages complaining/questioning/commenting on things that happen to them in their endeveours in photography, then why are you here? Don't let the door hit you on the *ss on the way out.

Get out of my head!!!!!! I agree with you totally here. I have been shooting professionally for years yet still love doing TFP shoots because it lets me work on things that iI want to do just for the image/art sake and not allow the $ angle ruin it.

Dec 12 05 12:37 pm Link

Photographer

American Glamour

Posts: 38813

Detroit, Michigan, US

Vito wrote:
No, she didn't just change her mind. She thought she'd extort money from a photographer who she already agreed to shoot with.

Extortion is threatening to accuse someone of a crime if you don't pay money.  She didn't extort money.  She initially agreed to do a shoot as TFP then changed her mind.  She decided that she wanted to be paid if she was to shoot.  You make it sound like wanting to be paid is a crime.  When two people can't agree on a shoot you move on and work with someone else (which is exactly what this photographer did).

I think you are hurting the cause by blowing this up to more than it is.

I agree, that when you make a commitment, you should follow through, but she did give him notice.  She did not stand him up.

Also, everything being said here is one sided.   We know nothing of her reasons.  She is new, perhaps someone looked at the photographer's work and wasn't impressed (I am not suggesting he was a bad photographer), perhaps she felt she needed to be paid for the style of work, it took three hours to convince her to do the shoot, maybe she was reluctant and felt she was being pushed, maybe the shoot was just beyond her comfort zone.  There could be perfectly legitimate reasons, yet we do not know what they are so she is being labeled as "unprofessional."    This was not a professional booking to begin with, it was TFP.

This all reminds me of the Texas man that was arrested a few weeks ago for taking lewd photos in a public place.  I remember commenting that I understood the statute and what he was accused of but we needed to wait and see.  One is innocent until proven guilty.  The media reports, they do not convict.

Lo and behold, no charges were ever filed even though we had dozens of posts villifying this man.  When cooler heads looked at it objectively, they saw no criminality.

There are many explainations for what this girl decided.  Some are reasonable, others are not.  There is a good argument for convincing models to follow through on commitments.  But we can't judge her reasons because we don't konw her reasons.  All we know is that she chose to cancel and ask to be paid if the photographer wanted to shoot with her.

In the end, no matter what spin you put on this, it still comes down to a cancellation with notice.  If you want to judge her reasons for cancelling, then we need to hear both sides in a neutral environment.  I suspect that photographers here are so jaded that no matter what her reason, she would still be villified.

Without that, too much is being made about a relatively minor thing with only one side of the story.

Dec 12 05 12:49 pm Link

Photographer

Vito

Posts: 4582

Brooklyn, New York, US

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:

Extortion is threatening to accuse someone of a crime if you don't pay money.  She didn't extort money.  She initially agreed to do a shoot as TFP then changed her mind.  She decided that she wanted to be paid if she was to shoot.  You make it sound like wanting to be paid is a crime.  When two people can't agree on a shoot you move on and work with someone else (which is exactly what this photographer did).

ex·tort    Pronunciation Key  (k-stôrt)
tr.v. ex·tort·ed, ex·tort·ing, ex·torts

    To obtain from another by coercion or intimidation.


Beliveing the OP was setting up (prepping for a TFP shoot), the model attempted to extort additional compensation (beyond the agreed upon prints/images/time).

Dec 12 05 12:54 pm Link

Photographer

American Glamour

Posts: 38813

Detroit, Michigan, US

Brandon Smith wrote:
The overall tone of this thread has not become "the model did this" but the underlying problem with unprofessionalism in the workplace.  I agree that we probably do not know the full spectrum of the situation however, the fact of the matter is that the model COMMITTED to a photo shoot.  Model changed her mind (whether last minute or not) after considerable amount of time (at least in the eyes of the photographer) had been invested into the shoot.  But what strikes me is that the model didn't change her mind because she felt uncomfortable, had a family emergency, etc... but because she now wanted money and felt compelled to ask for it.  Herein lies the unprofessionalism.

That is the problem, why did she ask for money?  The photographer spent three hours trying to convince her.  Why did it take three hours.   Perhaps there was something about the photographer that made her uneasy.

You have concluded that she acted unprofessional.  Most of you are not professionals.  I am.  This is all I do and over the years I have seen it all.

I can give you a dozen reasons why, professionally speaking, I could see her being justified in what she did.  She also could be way out in left field.  But without hearing from her in a clear and objective fashion, I will never know.

I will not convict someone of misconduct without hearing both sides of the story and that is the bottom line. So you can tell me all day long that I missed the point but I will stand by my position.

One sided flaming attacks against others serve no useful purpose except to polarize.  If you tell me the purpose of the thread is to tell models to act professionally, I ask why does that even need to be said.  It is a given.   We all agree that both models AND photographers should act professionally (even if they are just amatuers or GWC's wanting to shoot).

When you focus in on a single act and present it from the perspective of only one party, then you lose your objectivity and no purpose is served at all.

Dec 12 05 12:57 pm Link

Photographer

Vito

Posts: 4582

Brooklyn, New York, US

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:

That is the problem, why did she ask for money?  The photographer spent three hours trying to convince her.  Why did it take three hours.   Perhaps there was something about the photographer that made her uneasy.

You have concluded that she acted unprofessional.  Most of you are not professionals.  I am.  This is all I do and over the years I have seen it all.

I can give you a dozen reasons why, professionally speaking, I could see her being justified in what she did.  She also could be way out in left field.  But without hearing from her in a clear and objective fashion, I will never know.

I will not convict someone of misconduct without hearing both sides of the story and that is the bottom line. So you can tell me all day long that I missed the point but I will stand by my position.

One sided flaming attacks against others serve no useful purpose except to polarize.  If you tell me the purpose of the thread is to tell models to act professionally, I ask why does that even need to be said.  It is a given.   We all agree that both models AND photographers should act professionally (even if they are just amatuers or GWC's wanting to shoot).

When you focus in on a single act and present it from the perspective of only one party, then you lose your objectivity and no purpose is served at all.

And you assumed (which the OP clarified) that it was a 3 hour conversation, all at one time with the the OP pressuring her. He said it was many conversations (by phone/email). She had a question/he answered, he had a question/she answered. Something like that. The 3 hours may even be a little exaggerated.

Dec 12 05 01:00 pm Link

Photographer

American Glamour

Posts: 38813

Detroit, Michigan, US

Vito wrote:
ex·tort    Pronunciation Key  (k-stôrt)
tr.v. ex·tort·ed, ex·tort·ing, ex·torts

    To obtain from another by coercion or intimidation.


Beliveing the OP was setting up (prepping for a TFP shoot), the model attempted to extort additional compensation (beyond the agreed upon prints/images/time).

Sheesh.   I am done with this thread.  Actually, there is a technical difference between extortion and blackmail.  Extortion is to intimidate by threating to accuse one of a crime and blackmail is to intimidate by threatening to publicly embarass. 

The key to either one is that there has to be a threat of a consequence, (embarassment or charging with a crime), if you don't pay the money.

You need to look in a law dictionary and you will see the precise definitions.   Try this one:  http://dictionary.law.com/

The only consequence here is that the model decided to turn down the booking.

Now, if the model came for a TFP and then halfway through the the shoot refused to continue, then I would agree that would have been far worse.  Just like if a model did a paid shoot and then refused to sign a release, that would be unconscionable.

However saying she changed her mind in advance of the shoot, that is far from extortion.

Vito wrote:
And you assumed (which the OP clarified) that it was a 3 hour conversation, all at one time with the the OP pressuring her. He said it was many conversations (by phone/email). She had a question/he answered, he had a question/she answered. Something like that. The 3 hours may even be a little exaggerated.

Vito, I am not assuming anything.  I know that I have only heard one side of the story.

And for the record, it seems to me that she must have been hesitant to have had to have so many conversations.

This was my last post on the subject.  This whole thread is going over the deep end when we start talking about extortion when all a model says is she has decided she need to be paid or she prefers not to do the shoot.  Extortion is a crime in every state.  Try taking a ride down to your local constabulary and tell the desk sargeant that you want her arrested for extortion because she decided she wanted to be paid for the shoot!

Dec 12 05 01:05 pm Link

Photographer

American Glamour

Posts: 38813

Detroit, Michigan, US

Double Post, Sorry!

Dec 12 05 01:07 pm Link