Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

I find it unnerving to see so many photographers willing to put up with amateurish, unaccountable behavior by models, and even defending it.  As far as I'm concerned, this type of largesse makes our business a more difficult and hazardous place to operate.  I'm not going to mention how may "bad photographer" threads get posted around here...they're not too hard to find.

Yup..exactly right. Ironically, it makes the photographers who are defending models being flaky look so desperate to me.

I don't think anyone should tolerate people not communicating clearly on either side of the fence...whether its a photographer or a model. As someone else said here..for many models who say I dont do nudes..that just means maybe. For the right money or the right image most will do it it seems. I also really dont understand why someone actually gets so offended if they get an email asking to do a nude shoot...delete and move on.

area291 wrote:
It's rude to place the arrogance of "why won't they just summarily disrobe for me" on the model without strong enough reason to do so.  Instead of complaint, make the compelling offer through presenting a strong body of work or pulling from the trust fund account.  Either of which may give pause for consideration, but in the end it is the model's choice to make on their terms, not the photographer's.

Isn't it a little rude to not accept that?

Man!!!  Where do you get this stuff?

a)  I didn't even approach the model in question (i.e. the one who posted nude photos while saying "I won't pose nude" in her portfolio).  She didn't reject me; I didn't approach her.

b)  I've done nothing in this thread or elsewhere to imply that I am frustrated about models not wishing to pose for me or that I have difficulty finding models.  In fact, there are more willing & interested models around than I can get around to.

c)  I've done nothing to imply that models don't have a choice, and I don't assume that just because a model has posed nude for someone else that she'd be happy to pose nude for me.  I personally have only one rule for my sittings:  don't do anything that makes you uncomfortable.  I never want to work with a model who isn't comfortable or happy posing for me.

d)  I have always respected models -- that is best evident by my web site where you can see that most of the models return multiple times for additional sittings.

I'm sorry -- there is nothing rude about what I'm doing.  I'm pointing out that models send mixed messages when the post nude photos & claim that they don't pose nude in their profile.  Look -- I'm just saying that actions speak louder than words.

Studio200 wrote:

Then so do photographers... So when I invite someone over for a clothed fashion tfp shoot and in the middle of the shoot say, "ok i want you to do nudes now" and they say "wait, you never asked about that" and I say "yeah but I heard its cool for us all to say what we want and change our minds!"...

I agree with pretty much everything else you said Carlton, but I don't believe in the models being able to do whatever they want and "its all good" because the poor "hot" girl might get hit on in life (oh my god!).... I don't do nearly as many nude shoots now because of the same reasons you outlined..its too much hassle. Art suffers. It's also why I've actually become a lot more picky about tfp..now its only with people I know, or people that someone I've shot has recommended...and thats for tfp with their clothes on!.. I'm considering a venture that is going to require artistic/pin up type nudes and I've sort of come to the conclusion that none of this will be tfp..I'd rather pay someone outright to limit the hassles involved..now I just need to get the financing haha..

I think there's somewhat a misunderstanding in at least what I'm saying here.  My point is that either party can change his/her mind.  If you tell a model that you are going to shoot clothed and then in the middle say, "I changed my mind, I want to shoot nude".  You can do that.  Just realize it's a two way street.  The model can say, sorry, I don't want to do that today.  You each have the right.  Now, you also have to deal with the repercussions of your actions.  It may be that a photographer doesn't want to shoot with you anymore.  Once again, his/her choice.

It seems that this thread went from having a nude in your port to having all nudes in your port.  If you have all nudes in your port, then of course it's reasonable to assume that you do nudes.  If you have ONE in your port, it's reasonable to assume you are open to nudes.  However if you say, I don't do nudes (implied anymore, because you obviously have done it), you have every right to do so.  Someone earlier said, if you have a port full of wedding shots and you say you don't do weddings, that's a little crazy or something.  I totally agree.  I just don't think that we are talking about a port full of anything.  We're talking about a pic or two.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Man!!!  Where do you get this stuff?

a)... 
b)... 
c)... 
d)... 
I'm sorry --

Me too.  I should have prequalified my response a little in that it was not directed to you personally, rather the mass when encountering frustration.

Iona Lynn wrote:
I got convinced a few times to do them for free, the last two in my port were tfp.
If I get very good quality prints that will improve my port I'll do it. Right now I'm shooting for a book it is not paid but published work and a full color book not some street rag that are sold on the sidewalks of the stripper district.

I do agree with you lapis though the gwc's all seem to have stayed away from me as my port has improved.
Modeling is like crack, the first few pay you to get you hooked the they stop paying and your hooked.
I'm so happy to have my paying gig tonight though, I miss your twisty toe sucking avatar.

I'm glad to know that there are still some REAL models, like Iona, on MM!!!

Sarah Schaf wrote:

Not sure, but I may be the model you are talking about. If not, I'm guilty of this and I know others who are. In my defense, I don't mind turning down a professional that is asking for nudes, but I just don't want a million GWCs. But it's really no big deal because all I have to do is simply say "no." I can understand why it's irritating for photogs like you, I totally understand. But I know I'll get those GWCs regardless, so either way i I keep a shot up on my avatar of myself butt naked spread eagle, or it's a picture of my nostril, I'll still get em. No biggie.

I just saw your portfolio, by keeping yourself away from nudes you are
preventing bad pictures from being shown here on MM. Good job!!!!!!

CameraSight wrote:
Remember NO=MAYBE

yeah, great date rape mentality.

Iona Lynn wrote:
nope all of you have it backwards
I clearly state that I do nudes and I have not gotten a single email about nudes since, it is great. 
hugs to all

Now this is very refreshing Iona. Very clear and straight forward. If I were in that area I would certainly want to work with you. You wouldn't have to do nudes either. If more profiles were like yours this would make dealing with models for newer photographers much better.

Aaron

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

Not the ones I associate with...They're a pretty serious and professional bunch.

yup...the first one to break a smile gets cracked with a whip, tied up in a corner, and given a 2 day time out. It is pretty grim.

area291 wrote:

Me too.  I should have prequalified my response a little in that it was not directed to you personally, rather the mass when encountering frustration.

Thank you for that -- I feel better.  Truly.

Louis Braga wrote:

I just saw your portfolio, by keeping yourself away from nudes you are
preventing bad pictures from being shown here on MM. Good job!!!!!!

I really am bewildered by this comment. I am not sure if I'm taking this the same way that you mean it. I'm taking it as either I'm not a good model, I would do poor nude pics, or even possibly it could go towards the photographer I worked with on those pics in my port. Not sure so I would appreciate this to be clarified before I respond properly.

Sarah Schaf wrote:

I really am bewildered by this comment. I am not sure if I'm taking this the same way that you mean it. I'm taking it as either I'm not a good model, I would do poor nude pics, or even possibly it could go towards the photographer I worked with on those pics in my port. Not sure so I would appreciate this to be clarified before I respond properly.

i took it in the worst way possible.. that the world would be a prettier place if no one had to see you naked.  and, of course, i thought that was a really childish, crappy thing to say.  But, hopefully, I'm completely wrong on the way I read it.

Lapis wrote:

yup...the first one to break a smile gets cracked with a whip, tied up in a corner, and given a 2 day time out. It is pretty grim.

OH ME PICK ME!

CameraSight wrote:
Remember NO=MAYBE

Lapis wrote:
yeah, great date rape mentality.

But at least this thread points to where the date rape mentality comes from

Clear speech leads to clear understanding...mixed messages leads to confusion

raveneyes wrote:
clear speech leads to clear understanding...mixed messages leads to confusion.

Krista Muller wrote:
I would have to agree with that. It is not good to be misleading.

CO Model Amber wrote:
Maybe some models don't see "implied" as being "nude"

That's a whole other duality...It would need an entire thread of its own.

DawnElizabeth Moderator wrote:
Ah, but to be fair, maybe the models should be more truthful and honest in their profile and portfolio....say what you mean, "Nude, semi or implied is considered on a case basis and not negotiated for TFP." Obviously, there was an instance where she/he had considered nude and did so, if you no longer do it, honestly, just don't put it up.

here here....very well said......one of my favourites was a girl who posted semi nudes on her port....when i talked to her the first thing out of her mouth was "absolutely no nudes or anything pornographic" and derided me for having nudes in my port.....5 mins later in the same conversation she told me her dream was to be a centerfold in penthouse......ehem.....i guess i just never saw the amish version of penthouse she must have been dreaming to be a centerfold in.....ohhh baby....did you see missy yoder with her socks showing in that centerfold at the last barn raising???   she didnt even have a hair net on!!!! > : )

Thomas B wrote:
What if the model wants to be in Playboy but does not want to get naked for every guy on MM? Now I know someone will say "well then she should say that in her profile". Here is why that would be a mistake. If a model puts in her profile that she wants to do Playboy or bigger magazines, she would have every GWC emailing her saying they are doing test shoots for Playboy....or they have a friend at Playboy.

It's hard to believe a model would come here looking for a Playboy photographer.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
>>> If you aren't interested in posing nude, don't post nude photos!!!
I respect anyone's limits & I'd hate to offend someone, but if you post nude photos of yourself, then please don't be surprised when someone asks you to pose nude.

I 2nd that emotion!  Just today I saw this guy's profile and in it he says that he doesn't do implied or nude work so don't ask.  Inside his portfolio were nude pics of him, not full monty mind you.  WTF?!  All models have to do is reword their bio to say that they used to do nudes but stopped.   That way you aren't sending mixed messages.  Oh, I forgot, I had some models tell me that they only do nudes with someone like a Herb Ritts or for 10 grand!  A model I recenlty worked with said he didn't do any nude work implied or otherwise.  I mean I couldn't even get him to show butt crack or pubic hair.  After the shoot was done I happened to do a search online of his name and guess what, he was on the cover of Playgirl magazine last year and the centerfold.  He goes on to say in the interview that he doesn't have a problem with nudity.  No it's ok b/c he doesn't have any nude pics posted in his portfolio but don't pretend or act like you've never done nudity or showing butt cleavage or pubes is a big when you've done full frontal nudes in the past.  Mind you he never mentioned to me he'd done nudity before.  I hate when models act like you're a perv just for asking if you do or would do something remotely related to being nude, implied or otherwise.