Posted by EmElle: 

Posted by Austin Models & Talent Agency: 
There are, unfortunately, a lot of people running around doing this without license.  We have the same issue in the management business.  Example: Net-Model.Com (for instance) lists 40+ "agencies" in the State of Texas.  One of the 40 listed holds a license.  The others?  Criminals, I suppose.  I've seen the same thing with MUA's.

I can't comment on licensed agencies.  I believe that's a state by state thing, not sure.  Especially with NYC and that there are no "agencies" thing, it confuses me.

However, licensed makeup artists... that's something I've actually been researching lately.  In some states, no license is required AT ALL.  In NY, a license is required no matter what end of the makeup spectrum they're in.  It's not (currently) enforced, however.  CA, NJ, and a goodly number of other states require a license in a salon, or in other civilian work - unless working as a line rep and not charging for services.  (I'm really not sure how MAC can charge for doing makeup in those states.)  There is an entertainment exemption that says that if the artist is working in the tv/film and print industry, they do not have to be licensed.  Then, it's up to the union locals and artist agencies to require the license or not.  (Many union locals do, the agencies typically do not.)

I certainly hope that all artists receive some sort of training for sanitation, and unfortunately there are quite a few who aren't practicing safe makeup!  Getting a license in estethics (or cosmetology) guarantees that the artist has at least learned sanitation, and since it's drummed in repeatedly, daily, there's a fair bet they are automatically being sanitary.

MAC counters require a purchase of $40 worth of product. NOT $60 as you said before. I have been to the counter recently and one of my friends is the manager of the one in Oakridge Mall in San Jose. I know this for a fact because I take my models most of the times that I've been shooting lately. They are not picky either if you are a couple dollars under or over ...

Posted by Dan Hood: 
I think the taking a model to a mall for makeup is laughable. You obviously don't understand the true value of a top quality makeup person.

When a model changes outfits often the makeup needs to change to reflect that. What about touch ups? Also, one of the most overlooked aspects of a M/U on the set is another set of eyes checking the model for stray hairs, wrinkles in the clothes, ect. Often when worrying about the lighting and poses and such having a industry professional behind you looking at the model for all the small details one might miss while shooting is invaluable.

Think about this, on most major sets a good m/u can runs up to like a $1,000 per day. On movie sets several of them for weeks at a time. Do you really think that picture studios and advertising agencies would fork out the expense year after year if it wasn't absolutely essential.

Not using a print qualified M/U is shooting half assed. It's the fasted was to GWC syndrome.

Dan, I have an assistant who also knows MU and styling. This lady is more than qualified to retouch MU when needed. Since we purchase some MU at the counter, we have it available at the studio too. Just because someone works at a retail counter does not mean they can't be good at applying Make Up!

I worked for PCA and also Olan Mills which are well known "institutional's" in the retail portrait studio business. I am a fairly good photographer, but I paid my dues in the retail world and benefited greatly from the experience!

You can "laugh" all you want and I'll laugh with you as I have been doing the "shopping mall" route for years now! There are "true quality" MU Artists working in retail just as there are photographers who are doing the same! I took some classes at the junior colleges, but never any formal photography school. The training I received  at Olan Mills and PCA was very valuable to me! (Even if you don't think so!)

Posted by Patrick Walberg: 
It does not matter where you've been or who you know as long as you do good work. Getting the job done that you are asked to do is also important. You do not tell the photographer or client how the make up must be done, you listen and find out what it is that needs to be done. If you "assume" you know, then you make an ass out of yourself!

I'm very glad we agree!  I have never told anyone on any set how makeup should be done, unless it was the time I mentored a new artist through a shoot (at photographer request).  I did the talking to the photographer and client, and talked the artist through the shoot.

So it seems that Ms Keala has asked photographers on the islands asking her to do her make up.  Also it is not her responsibility to "hire" a make up artist, it is up to the photographer. It is not your problem, but it is too bad that if you are not able to "be there" if you as talented as you say you are. By putting a negative spin on all MU Artists who happen to work at retail product counters, you are not helping her any.

Talent is in the eye of the beholder.  You will either like my work or you won't.

I never said "all" makeup artists working retail didn't know makeup for print.  But I guarantee that most don't.  Having worked in salons, been in the retail environment, and owning a very successful pro makeup forum for 3+ years (with talent from all over the world) has taught me a few things about the business and the dime a dozen "artists" that are available.

I have been admiring the work of Hugh Jorgen and Dreampretty of  Siskiyou Digital Imaging for quite some time now. They have some great images working together and if Dream says "red lipstick and nails are the norm" for their shoots, then so be it! It's their work not yours!  Everyone has their opinion, including you and me. If we didn't disagree and break a few "rules" ... this World would be boring as all hell!

It may be the norm for their shoots, but for someone to just post the "rules" as if they are "THE RULES" won't necessarily fly.  Your typical commercial ad campaign doesn't do red nails and red lipstick.  Even a great many fashion shoots don't.

I hope I have been helpful to Keala in this thread.  She's been directed to my forum which is loaded in product info and even some tips, she's been directed now to two separate articles on modeling (one being a prep sheet), I've provided a critique of the images she posted from the modeling school, and I've even suggested that she find a true pro artist to spend time with her and teach her makeup specifically for her for print work (in the end, this really is the best choice).  If she didn't find any of that helpful, then I don't know how I can help her further, unless she flies to me, or flies me out there. 

If you didn't see how any of that was helpful, I'd like to know how you think I can improve.

Posted by W. Herb Clark: 
After viewing some work from "licensed" professionals here, I would say their work is criminal as well.

Agreed - but that doesn't change the fact that if someone is required to do something by the laws and they do not, then they are commiting a criminal act.  Licensing is not a cure all, but it is a first step in regulating and keeping the industry professional.

Posted by Patrick Walberg: 

You can "laugh" all you want and I'll laugh with you as I have been doing the "shopping mall" route for years now! There are "true quality" MU Artists working in retail just as there are photographers who are doing the same! I took some classes at the junior colleges, but never any formal photography school. The training I received  at Olan Mills and PCA was very valuable to me! (Even if you don't think so!)

Well fine, to each his own I guess.

You may want to chill on telling people you got trained at Olin Mills. That's like saying you were trained to be a chef at Burger king.

As for me I dont shoot with out a great (not just good)M/U on the set. Woulnt have it any other way.

Posted by Dan Hood: 

Posted by Patrick Walberg: 

You can "laugh" all you want and I'll laugh with you as I have been doing the "shopping mall" route for years now! There are "true quality" MU Artists working in retail just as there are photographers who are doing the same! I took some classes at the junior colleges, but never any formal photography school. The training I received  at Olan Mills and PCA was very valuable to me! (Even if you don't think so!)

Well fine, to each his own I guess.

You may want to chill on telling people you got trained at Olin Mills. That's like saying you were trained to be a chef at Burger king.

As for me I dont shoot with out a great (not just good)M/U on the set. Woulnt have it any other way.

ouch..thats gonna leave a mark...

Posted by Printmakeup: 
We are only trying to give legit advice to a girl who asked for it. Maybe this advice doesnt mean shit in the world of "web modeling" , but when it comes to the actual industry itself its true. There are NO legit agencies that would send a model to a school.

This is true, but the advice doesn't fit in online.  I've thrown up my hands more than a few times.  :-P

Posted by Patrick Walberg: 
Yes, Jeff .. I agree with you. There are some individuals who are very good at MU but do not have a license of schooling of any formal nature. 

And I agree with you in that.  Bottom line, however, is if they are required to be licensed then they need to be.  You don't drive your car without a license - why?  Because the law says you have to have one... regardless how good a driver that you are.

Posted by Printmakeup: 
As far as Modeling Schools go I say RUN RUN RUN RUN. Even the smaller ones who are not intentionally scamming people are of no use to anyone who wants to be in the modeling industry. They all fill young girls heads with "for the one time fee of $2,000 (some schools less some more) we can give you all the tools nessecary to become a successful model. WOW what a deal a few grand spent to learn how to walk with a book on your head, have crappy photos taken, and learn how to do your makeup (which by no standards is professional training). That money would be soooo much better spent on first sending some snapshots to an agency, if they think you have a good look, then go hire a PROFESSIONAL photographer and mua and get some great shots for your book. There are quite a few of those "schools" near where im from (robert powers, john casablanca...) and Ive NEVER heard of anyone of those girls being signed by a big agency (at least not through the schools help), or given any work opportunities once they graduate besides maybe a promotional job.

As far as makeup rules for a shoot. Ive never heard of any set in stone rules for a models makeup. What a boring world of modeling it would be if every photograph you saw had red nails, matte skin, and specific colors for the rest of the makeup.. The only thing i could say if there are any "rules" it would be to come with natural manicured hands and feet (unless the concept of the shoot said otherwise), and well taken care of skin. Everything else completely depends on the concept of the shoot, the team of people your working with, where your shooting, the clothes that are being worn, ect. Thats why its good to work with a pro who can work with all these different types of concepts and locations.

As far as the negative comments left by Patrick towards Emelle:
While I know that some people get threatened feeling when someone comes along with different view points then yours and years of experience to back it up, I think this is one situation where you would all be advised to listen or at least contemplate what shes saying. I completely agree with everything that her and Mary have said in this thread so far, it has all be well intended and supported by fact. We are only trying to give legit advice to a girl who asked for it. Maybe this advice doesnt mean shit in the world of "web modeling" , but when it comes to the actual industry itself its true. There are NO legit agencies that would send a model to a school. There are NO makeup rules for models (they dont need them on pro shoots anyway, because there is always a pro mua there) And as far as cosmetology schools go about the only thing that your guaranteed from a cosmetology trained mua (this is not intended towards Patricks friend who i know you said had previous training) is sanitation skills. Nobody in the industry gives a crap about the school a mua went to. I went to The Makeup Designory in Burbank but i dont usually even tell this to people because all they care about is your portofolio or resume if you work in film. I went to school for my own purposes, knowing fully that it wouldent matter regardless once i was out of school . I did it for what i wanted to learn not to put the name of the school on a resume. Patrick, if your friend is as good as what you say and shes going to the school for the opportunities it will open for her being licenced (working in salons ect) then i say good for her. But in general is someone wants to JUST be a mua, either go to a makeup specifically for makeup or better yet go assist someone.
Just my 2 cents...

Yes, I agree 110% with what you say about modeling schools. A person can learn much of if not more of what it takes to model by taking dance, acting and photography classes at the local JC. Any class "could" benefit depending on your own attitude towards learning. If someone has la ready spent the money, well no sense in crying over it. I wrote quite a bit about the topic of learning in my "Tips For Models" which was posted earlier on this forum.

There are no set "rules" to anything creative, and even if there are .. creative people know that "rules are meant to be broken!"

I don't think I was being negative, and I am certainly not "threatened" by anyone. SO what if my MUA is also a MAC counter employee? So what if I know that I buy the purchase requirement of $40 to have the make up done for my models. The most important thing is if "we" are happy with it! I do know what I like MU wise on my models, and it's my personal taste. Then it is also important what my model thinks! It's her face after all! If she is happy too, then who else cares if the MU was done at a MAC counter or the kitchen table (where many of the brides are done before their weddings) or on the set of the photo studio? It's the end result that counts!

So are you saying that my advice is not as valuable or important as the others? Is it because I'm a stupid photographer who must not know anything about MU? Is it because I have twice the number of years in experience as the MU Artists posting? Actually ALL of what we say is subjective. None of it is "right or wrong" and we could argue all we want and never prove a thing ... it's up to the original poster if she is going to give a hill of beans about what any of us have said!

Again, I agree with EVERYTHING you have said except for me being "negative" ...

Posted by Doug Swinskey: 

ouch..thats gonna leave a mark...

Naw that wasn't a personal shot. I don't take personal shots at people. I might takes shots at the advice they give but not at them personally.

Posted by Dan Hood: 

Posted by Patrick Walberg: 

You can "laugh" all you want and I'll laugh with you as I have been doing the "shopping mall" route for years now! There are "true quality" MU Artists working in retail just as there are photographers who are doing the same! I took some classes at the junior colleges, but never any formal photography school. The training I received  at Olan Mills and PCA was very valuable to me! (Even if you don't think so!)

Well fine, to each his own I guess.

You may want to chill on telling people you got trained at Olin Mills. That's like saying you were trained to be a chef at Burger king.

As for me I dont shoot with out a great (not just good)M/U on the set. Woulnt have it any other way.

Dan, I have nothing to be ashamed of with my more than 25 years of photography experience. I've worked along side Brooks graduates who were impressed with my abilities in areas they had missed as I was with their technical knowledge they received from formal training. I learned to work fast because of my retail experience which is of major importance when shooting for newspapers and magazines (I have done that too!) Also I learned people and management skills in retail since I did work as the manager of a couple studios. In addition to the classes I took at the JC, I assisted a professional before I shot my first weddings solo. As I said, nothing to be ashamed of!

I do shoot with a great assistant on the set or at locations.

Posted by Austin Models & Talent Agency: 

Posted by Patrick Walberg: 
Yes, Jeff .. I agree with you. There are some individuals who are very good at MU but do not have a license of schooling of any formal nature. 

And I agree with you in that.  Bottom line, however, is if they are required to be licensed then they need to be.  You don't drive your car without a license - why?  Because the law says you have to have one... regardless how good a driver that you are.

Right! The answer is obvious! It's for the protection of the client and the model! It's why I meantion allergies so often because the model knows her own skin. One model I work with is badly allergic to MAC MU and she has her own MUA who happens to work in retail too! LOL

Bottomline is to know your skin if you are a model!

Posted by Dan Hood: 

Posted by Doug Swinskey: 

ouch..thats gonna leave a mark...

Naw that wasn't a personal shot. I don't take personal shots at people. I might takes shots at the advice they give but not at them personally.

No harm done, Dan! LOL

Posted by Hugh  Jorgen: 
blah blah blah blah!!

And!

Blah!!

Hugh, they don't like Dreams "rules" ... well if you don't like the way Dream does MU, you'd just fire her ass, right? LOL

Your pictures turn out the way you like 'em, so she must be doing something right!  Ever feel like breaking rules? 

Posted by EmElle: 

Posted by Patrick Walberg: 
It does not matter where you've been or who you know as long as you do good work. Getting the job done that you are asked to do is also important. You do not tell the photographer or client how the make up must be done, you listen and find out what it is that needs to be done. If you "assume" you know, then you make an ass out of yourself!

I'm very glad we agree!  I have never told anyone on any set how makeup should be done, unless it was the time I mentored a new artist through a shoot (at photographer request).  I did the talking to the photographer and client, and talked the artist through the shoot.

So it seems that Ms Keala has asked photographers on the islands asking her to do her make up.  Also it is not her responsibility to "hire" a make up artist, it is up to the photographer. It is not your problem, but it is too bad that if you are not able to "be there" if you as talented as you say you are. By putting a negative spin on all MU Artists who happen to work at retail product counters, you are not helping her any.

Talent is in the eye of the beholder.  You will either like my work or you won't.

I never said "all" makeup artists working retail didn't know makeup for print.  But I guarantee that most don't.  Having worked in salons, been in the retail environment, and owning a very successful pro makeup forum for 3+ years (with talent from all over the world) has taught me a few things about the business and the dime a dozen "artists" that are available.

I have been admiring the work of Hugh Jorgen and Dreampretty of  Siskiyou Digital Imaging for quite some time now. They have some great images working together and if Dream says "red lipstick and nails are the norm" for their shoots, then so be it! It's their work not yours!  Everyone has their opinion, including you and me. If we didn't disagree and break a few "rules" ... this World would be boring as all hell!

It may be the norm for their shoots, but for someone to just post the "rules" as if they are "THE RULES" won't necessarily fly.  Your typical commercial ad campaign doesn't do red nails and red lipstick.  Even a great many fashion shoots don't.

I hope I have been helpful to Keala in this thread.  She's been directed to my forum which is loaded in product info and even some tips, she's been directed now to two separate articles on modeling (one being a prep sheet), I've provided a critique of the images she posted from the modeling school, and I've even suggested that she find a true pro artist to spend time with her and teach her makeup specifically for her for print work (in the end, this really is the best choice).  If she didn't find any of that helpful, then I don't know how I can help her further, unless she flies to me, or flies me out there. 

If you didn't see how any of that was helpful, I'd like to know how you think I can improve.

I think this has been a very "Hot" thread on a topic that is very relevant for discussion on this forum. You have made a valuable contribution to this thread as has Mary and others ...

Also I agree with you that "set rules" are not to be cast in stone since Make Up is an "art" as photography. Hopefully this has been an educational thread for many here! I know it has been for me!

Posted by Austin Models & Talent Agency: 

Posted by Printmakeup: 
We are only trying to give legit advice to a girl who asked for it. Maybe this advice doesnt mean shit in the world of "web modeling" , but when it comes to the actual industry itself its true. There are NO legit agencies that would send a model to a school.

This is true, but the advice doesn't fit in online.  I've thrown up my hands more than a few times.  :-P

Well I dont understand why it shouldent fit in online, considering that most of the people online probably dont want to spend the rest of their careers being classified as web models or web photographers. People will have to understand how the outside industry works sooner or later if they ever want to work in it

Posted by Printmakeup: 

Posted by Austin Models & Talent Agency: 

Posted by Printmakeup: 
We are only trying to give legit advice to a girl who asked for it. Maybe this advice doesnt mean shit in the world of "web modeling" , but when it comes to the actual industry itself its true. There are NO legit agencies that would send a model to a school.

This is true, but the advice doesn't fit in online.  I've thrown up my hands more than a few times.  :-P

Well I dont understand why it shouldent fit in online, considering that most of the people online probably dont want to spend the rest of their careers being classified as web models or web photographers. People will have to understand how the outside industry works sooner or later if they ever want to work in it

i am in total agreement...i always offer advice as if the model has intentions of becomming landbased...

Posted by Printmakeup: 
Well I dont understand why it shouldent fit in online, considering that most of the people online probably dont want to spend the rest of their careers being classified as web models or web photographers. People will have to understand how the outside industry works sooner or later if they ever want to work in it

Going into online model forums and trying to give land-based advice is like being a Red Sox's fan and going to a game at Yankee stadium.  IF you survive, you will leave with your tail between your legs, running fast.  Giving land advice is just plain dangerous!  LOL

Posted by Austin Models & Talent Agency: 
Going into online model forums and trying to give land-based advice is like being a Red Sox's fan and going to a game at Yankee stadium.  IF you survive, you will leave with your tail between your legs, running fast.  Giving land advice is just plain dangerous!  LOL

Agreed.
Perhaps a form called "land based talk" or "brick & mortar" would be good for this site.

Posted by Dan Hood: 

Posted by Austin Models & Talent Agency: 
Going into online model forums and trying to give land-based advice is like being a Red Sox's fan and going to a game at Yankee stadium.  IF you survive, you will leave with your tail between your legs, running fast.  Giving land advice is just plain dangerous!  LOL

Agreed.
Perhaps a form called "land based talk" or "brick & mortar" would be good for this site.

Sounds like a great idea. So do you think a GWC could hook up with a wannabe MUA and voila! Magic?