ClassicHorror wrote:
King was found dressed in the fetish gear that she wore in the photos.

I have always said bdsm/fetishists were fucked up, just not right in the head. Sex is one thing, but to get off specifically by the degradation of another human being or their imprisonment or infliction of pain just does not make any sense to me. My experience has been these people are usually very weak or not in control in their own lives and need to inflict what they feel as injustices on others.

Kaitlin Lara wrote:
A photographer friend of mine told me about a model friend who was at a shoot where she was topless...the photographer wanted her nipples to be hard, and apparently decided the best way to go about achieving that look was to start sucking on the model's nipples.

Hmm, for whatever reason 'no' is not on her vocabulary? You know what, you actually stand up to people like that and they often back down very quickly. Hey, that is an obvious sexual contact, and it is one thing to force it on someone, but if she did not protest, she must have assumed she would derrive some sexual pleasure from it.


SO OFTEN SITUATIONS LIKE THIS ARISE AS A HEAT OF THE MOMENT EVENT. Then the next day remorse. Like when I used to go clubbing, I have woken up a few times and been like "dude, I slept with her?!?" I think we've all been there.

Lucian Schmit wrote:
The other guy claims to be an ex-playboy photographer and approaches new models.

Not a big fan of Playboy per se, but a friend of the company, and often help girls get past those kinds of folks.

SKPhoto wrote:

Ah yes, the attack kitten. Primevals got nothing on the all powerfull attack kitten.

Curt Burgess wrote:
tic toc, tic toc ...

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Curt, There will be no posts as to details of models or photographers on Model Mayhem being raped unless that incident makes it to court somewhere and it becomes on public record.  Do you want gossip?  Because that is what it sounds like to me.

Patrick - you're as confused as usual. I said I don't want gossip - that's what you were doing.

I said I wanted first hand accounts (doesn't have to be of rape, for god's sake) of things that an escort would have prevented. Not your "I had a model tell me this..."

And who are you to say that there will be no details of incidents until it goes to court. Who said you were in charge of this?  Of course with all the assualts, rapes, and other horrible acts going on that you and others would imply it would seem to be a straightforward effort to post a few public records, newspaper articles of these sorts of things. But, again, this doesn't happen - does it?

Lexloco wrote:
I am still waiting for a model to tell me about a photographer she met on MM and went to shoot with (without an escort) and was attacked.

Me too.  Why isn't this a trivially easy thing to find if anything that Patrick and his buddies have to say is remotely true. Maybe they just like scaring models.

Curt Burgess wrote:
(this was to Patrick) what you're doing right now is just gossip. I know one model who claims she got raped on a shoot. I don't have any reason to not trust her. It's hard to imagine that with a quarter million members on MM someone hasn't gotten raped. This has come up on the escort Thread many times (which is where this discussion should be taking place) .... requests for first hand accounts and nothing substantive. Just from the numbers on MM, one would expect something. All this argues for models being MUCH safer with photographers than with many other classes of individuals. And if they do their due diligence, it gets about as safe as it can get. If someone is going to rape a model, an escort just provides a two-for-one deal for them.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
In all my postings on "escort" threads, I've pointed out that everyone of has a greater chance of being killed in an accident than being murdered.  We also have a greater chance of committing suicide than being murdered.  Then there is the smaller chance that we would be murdered by a stranger or a photographer than someone who is a family member or friend.  The percentages of ALL these are well below a 10% chance with accidents being highest. 

I have said that some terrible things do happen but these incidents are not very frequent at all.  Out of hundreds of shoots, a model might have one where the photographer was creepy ... perhaps doing something inappropriate like touching her when she didn't want or need it or dropping his pants to expose himself.  Rapes and murders are even rarer But lets say that there is a one in million ratio. It is no consolation to that "one" it happens to.

I will say that I have heard of "escorts" stopping a potential rapist from getting very far. (A fact!) So let's just say that if it deters one potential rape from occurring, it is worth it.   (In my opinion.)

Gossip?  I don't know about that.   I would say that anytime someone writes on this forum about something they have not verified, there is the potential for it to be wrong information.  It is also against the rules to "out" someone for the reason that we are not a judge nor a jury.  We do not know the complete story, AND there is not a trial of any kind going on here.  We challenge and debate each other here, yet there are few actions we can take on most issues.

Nobody (except you) is talking about "outing" anyone - just wanting first hand accounts. Not your second hand gossip.

Quarter of a million users on MM and not one first hand account. Not one. Surely with all the models you know and have protected and escorted and have told you all these horror stories, one could post. Don't you think?

Select Models wrote:
I've known this model you speak of (in this incident) for a few years... she has attended several SM photoshoots, and a few of her cool pics are on my MM page.  After I spotted her 'RAPIST' spam all over 5 or 6 different forums, I called her and heard her crying endlessly on the phone as she described what happened.  She is actually a sweetheart of a person, and a straight shooter who has never lied to me.  She is alittle bit of a 'loose canon' and probably too much of an emotional thinker, but I have NO DOUBT that what she told me on the phone was the truth.  She outted the photographer on several messages, and now is port is banned, and after hers was down for a few days, it was re-instated.  I think 'MM Justice' has prevailed surrounding this incident...

I've shot this model too Gary and I like her alot. She's great. What slays me and what seems to be lost on the White Knight types is that she had an escort too!  I hope she filed a police report. The safety provided by an escort is a total illusion. Ask Bill Bradford ... he murdered an escort!

Do due diligence. Be safe. Don't drag escorts to places where you yourself would not go alone!

TestShoot wrote:

I have always said bdsm/fetishists were fucked up, just not right in the head. Sex is one thing, but to get off specifically by the degradation of another human being or their imprisonment or infliction of pain just does not make any sense to me. My experience has been these people are usually very weak or not in control in their own lives and need to inflict what they feel as injustices on others.


Hmm, for whatever reason 'no' is not on her vocabulary? You know what, you actually stand up to people like that and they often back down very quickly. Hey, that is an obvious sexual contact, and it is one thing to force it on someone, but if she did not protest, she must have assumed she would derrive some sexual pleasure from it.


SO OFTEN SITUATIONS LIKE THIS ARISE AS A HEAT OF THE MOMENT EVENT. Then the next day remorse. Like when I used to go clubbing, I have woken up a few times and been like "dude, I slept with her?!?" I think we've all been there.

First of all...please don't talk smack on BDSM or fetish since you clearly don't understand it. I'm actively involved in BDSM, and I know a lot better than you what my relationships have been like, and none of them were about degradation or anything else that could be construed as "perverse".

Second...I've already said it was her fault for putting herself in that situation, because she didn't take any precautions to assure her safety. And like I've already said, she put up with it because she didn't have an alternate route home, and didn't know where she was, which was very stupid of her, but I think it's equally stupid of you to assume she let it happen because she enjoyed it. Have you ever been sexually assaulted? I have. I certainly didn't enjoy it, but I didn't say anything because I was 13 and VERY small, and the guy was 25 and VERY large. I'd rather be molested than dead.

In short...you're saying a lot of rediculous things about stuff that you've clearly never experienced and don't understand...so please stop making assumptions with no basis in fact that are insulting to other people.

Lexloco wrote:
I am still waiting for a model to tell me about a photographer she met on MM and went to shoot with (without an escort) and was attacked.

Anjel Britt wrote:
I've posted about 2 of them before
its not a joke
U think when we know they might read it ... we are saying any more??

grow up.

Posted on MM?  got a URL?
Thanks

Kaitlin Lara wrote:
BTW...I feel I should mention this...I've been in 2 creepy situations with photographers...not dangerous...but certainly very skeevey. I had escorts present at both. Escorts are not necessarily a perv deterrent. That's why I stopped bringing them and started relying on research instead. Research has proven to be a lot more effective.

Just don't forget to pack your attack kitten.

TestShoot wrote:
I have always said bdsm/fetishists were fucked up, just not right in the head. Sex is one thing, but to get off specifically by the degradation of another human being or their imprisonment or infliction of pain just does not make any sense to me. My experience has been these people are usually very weak or not in control in their own lives and need to inflict what they feel as injustices on others.

  (space  placed to denote other words which possibly represent thoughts or                    collections of intelliverbage
adequately represented by these comments above and below)

Not a big fan of Playboy per se, but a friend of the company, and often help girls get past those kinds of folks.

Sounds like you have a particularly limited experience.
Congratulations tho for befriending the Playboy company
and being annointed to serve helping the girls
get past those kind of folks.

Dawn Winter wrote:

Just don't forget to pack your attack kitten.

Heh...I should've...I do have an awfully vicious cat. When I tried to come up here to get on the computer earlier she dove for my feet. Apparently she doesn't like competing with MM for my attention.

ShadowCrafter wrote:

Sounds like you have a particularly limited experience.
Congratulations tho for befriending the Playboy company
and being annointed to serve helping the girls
get past those kind of folks.

Fo' rizzle. I'm so sick of all these people coming on here saying bad things about BDSM when when they clearly don't have any experience with it.

ClassicHorror wrote:
March 27, 2004

By Kevin Connor, Toronto Sun

Toronto models are now more afraid of dying than gaining weight or getting wrinkles after Mississauga's Natel King was murdered during a photo shoot. Fear has swept through the modelling community, said model Kelli Baker, who promotes herself on the same Web site that King used -- the site King's alleged murderer used to contact her.


la de da....

Before we get all, like, horrified and stuff from this case, let's examine it a bit further...

The relevant info about this case is being overlooked. Here's where some due diligence comes in. This model made very bad decisions. Here's a URL to the policie report.

http://www.montcopa.org/da/pressrelease … harges.htm

This model was afraid and still did the shoot. She mentioned to a friend that she was afraid the photographer was wacky and might kill her. She actually said this to a friend and still went on the shoot. In another report, the friend tells of how the model phoned her in route saying she was afraid of being killed but still continued on!

Given this info, I'm not sure it wasn't a suicide on her part!

Stupidity kills - no doubt about it.

If you think you need an escort, don't go to the shoot.

Curt Burgess wrote:

Before we get all, like, horrified and stuff from this case, let's examine it a bit further...

The relevant info about this case is being overlooked. Here's where some due diligence comes in. This model made very bad decisions. Here's a URL to the policie report.

http://www.montcopa.org/da/pressrelease … harges.htm

This model was afraid and still did the shoot. She mentioned to a friend that she was afraid the photographer was wacky and might kill her. She actually said this to a friend and still went on the shoot. In another report, the friend tells of how the model phoned her in route saying she was afraid of being killed but still continued on!

Given this info, I'm not sure it wasn't a suicide on her part!

Stupidity kills - no doubt about it.

If you think you need an escort, don't go to the shoot.

Be careful, Curt.

You may confuse people with relevant data like that.

ShadowCrafter wrote:
Sounds like you have a particularly limited experience.
Congratulations tho for befriending the Playboy company
and being annointed to serve helping the girls
get past those kind of folks.

Well, he does go by "testshoot."

Kaitlin Lara wrote:
Fo' rizzle. I'm so sick of all these people coming on here saying bad things about BDSM when when they clearly don't have any experience with it.

Maybe they need a little ...

Curt Burgess wrote:

ShadowCrafter wrote:
Sounds like you have a particularly limited experience.
Congratulations tho for befriending the Playboy company
and being annointed to serve helping the girls
get past those kind of folks.

Well, he does go by "testshoot."


Maybe they need a little ...

A little time with me serving them and I'm sure they'd change their mind...really...anyone who wouldn't like having an obedient, cute, little slave is clearly not in their right mind. (Not that everyone thinks I'm cute...but...you know what I mean)

Patrick Walberg wrote:
OMG!  Is this a joke thread and I took it seriously?    I'm embarrassed!

Prodigal M's post (quoted below) was the joke. 

Prodigal M wrote:
One time, this naked model who would not do nudes showed up with her no-show escort that preferred Nikon over Canon so I told her to pose with these angel wings and they started doing the Happy Dance and chanting "GWC, GWC, GWC". They would not stop so I fired some shots from my revolver through their foreheads in order to create the silence that an artist of my caliber requires. My wronkled bedsheets were badly stained but I have come to prefer the look if not the smell. Anyone want to shoot some TFP/CD/DVD/BETA/VHS/PC/MAC just let me know.

Curt Burgess wrote:
The relevant info about this case is being overlooked. Here's where some due diligence comes in. This model made very bad decisions. Here's a URL to the policie report.

http://www.montcopa.org/da/pressrelease … harges.htm

This model was afraid and still did the shoot. She mentioned to a friend that she was afraid the photographer was wacky and might kill her. She actually said this to a friend and still went on the shoot. In another report, the friend tells of how the model phoned her in route saying she was afraid of being killed but still continued on!

Two other pieces of information are relevant:  he operated a "model safety" website, and he had a female assistant there with him as an escort.

TestShoot wrote:
[I have always said bdsm/fetishists were fucked up, just not right in the head. Sex is one thing, but to get off specifically by the degradation of another human being or their imprisonment or infliction of pain just does not make any sense to me. My experience has been these people are usually very weak or not in control in their own lives and need to inflict what they feel as injustices on others.

[

Be silent and the world may consider you a fool...open your mouth and remove all doubt...

While the world has gotten stranger I don't deny...true bdsm has always been about the power in a relationship...and ironically its amusing folks who belive its the dom who holds it....

Ask a dom who has had the word called on him for the first time.....

There are bad apples in every flavor if you look....

Gotta love them vanillas...


R

TestShoot wrote:
My experience has been these people are usually very weak or not in control in their own lives and need to inflict what they feel as injustices on others.

My experience is that people eroticize things that were important or significant to them as they were developing their adolescent sexuality, or when they were children. A person's young life has much more to do with their sexuality than their current life, in general.

But then, you're just trolling, I suspect. Getting a rise out of people by spouting ignorant nonsense is such a lot of fun, isn't it? My experience is that people who go trolling on message-boards are usually very boring and weak in their real lives and do it because they are ignored too much in their day-to-day existence and are desperate for attention.

mjr.

Jessalyn wrote:

how could GI-Joe be "dressed up" as a female model? she was nude....lol

don't ask, don't tell

Marcus J. Ranum wrote:

My experience is that people eroticize things that were important or significant to them as they were developing their adolescent sexuality, or when they were children. A person's young life has much more to do with their sexuality than their current life, in general.

But then, you're just trolling, I suspect. Getting a rise out of people by spouting ignorant nonsense is such a lot of fun, isn't it? My experience is that people who go trolling on message-boards are usually very boring and weak in their real lives and do it because they are ignored too much in their day-to-day existence and are desperate for attention.

mjr.

I heart Marcus

Marcus J. Ranum wrote:
My experience is that people eroticize things that were important or significant to them as they were developing their adolescent sexuality, or when they were children. A person's young life has much more to do with their sexuality than their current life, in general.

But then, you're just trolling, I suspect. Getting a rise out of people by spouting ignorant nonsense is such a lot of fun, isn't it? My experience is that people who go trolling on message-boards are usually very boring and weak in their real lives and do it because they are ignored too much in their day-to-day existence and are desperate for attention.

mjr.

I totally agree that people can eroticize weird shit because of what role it played in their mental and development, but that is why we have things like therapists. Any people actually in the scene have mom dad the golden retriever and apple pie? I mean sure derive pleasure from whatever, I certainly am not forming a coalition or signing a petition to stop anyone from doing that, just saying many many models have had more trouble with this category than others. I tried to Google "model, murder, bondage" but the internet is not 100% accurate so finding newsclippings to link from free sources was very limited.

maybe its regional, these LA wackos? but i have been involved in video productions, shoots and know quite a substantial number of people so I am not just trolling, but pointing out my experience. my brother on the otherhand dates almost exclusively in this market.

The same argument "you're not in to it so you are obviously missing all the good points" is a blanket excuse that has no real way of being resolved that will satisfy the person posing the question.

Edit: I was gonna say something about my day to day life to counter your point, but I am sure, that in this thread we are both subject to generalizations based on our own experiences. anyway, I just got back from Vegas representing a friend's distribution company, I am sure you all know what happened there this past week and this one.

TestShoot wrote:
....I tried to Google "model, murder, bondage" but the internet is not 100% accurate so finding newsclippings to link from free sources was very limited.....

Since I have a background in linguistics, let me provide a free interpretation of TestShoot's sentence.

----interpretation----
I knew those scumbag B&D pervs would be involved in model murdering and pervy shit like that and google will bring some cases up and then I show those dorks over on MM.

** search, search, search ***

Shit. Can't find anything. WTF????

----end interpretation----

TXPhotog wrote:

Two other pieces of information are relevant:  he operated a "model safety" website, and he had a female assistant there with him as an escort.

We seem to be seeing a number of cases where escorts are in fact associated with the nasty going's on.  That's what's scary about White Knights .... a model safety web site. Now we're talking about perverted!

Select Models wrote:
I've known this model you speak of (in this incident) for a few years... she has attended several SM photoshoots, and a few of her cool pics are on my MM page.  After I spotted her 'RAPIST' spam all over 5 or 6 different forums, I called her and heard her crying endlessly on the phone as she described what happened.  She is actually a sweetheart of a person, and a straight shooter who has never lied to me.  She is alittle bit of a 'loose canon' and probably too much of an emotional thinker, but I have NO DOUBT that what she told me on the phone was the truth.  She outted the photographer on several messages, and now is port is banned, and after hers was down for a few days, it was re-instated.  I think 'MM Justice' has prevailed surrounding this incident...

Patrick Walberg wrote:
I back you 100% on this buddy because after you spoke with her, I did too ... her profile is up after 24 hours, not a few days.  Something DID happen to her.  The alleged photographer was gone because of the fact that her brother and b/f threw him out.  It was reported to the police, but they are not going to do anything about it.  She is going to be ok.  End of story!

Her "outing" this person on the forum was wrong, perhaps a mistake, but mostly it was against the rules of this forum.  But it is over now. Why do people love gossip so much? Society sure has changed.  I hate that the media has lost all dignity in sensationalism of NON NEWS.

Have a good day!

Gary, Patrick, I back you both 100% on this too.  I feel horrible for her being in such a situation. 

And, to think, with two escorts too. Now that's a shame.

Curt Burgess wrote:
Since I have a background in linguistics, let me provide a free interpretation of TestShoot's sentence.

I didn't know you had a background in linguistics. Very impressive.

Curt Burgess wrote:
I was there for that one, then the thread was removed. A very well known MM model claimed the photographer raped her. The model was on location with her BF and brother. (Note 2 escorts and this still happened...or did it?)

She changed her story some in a later post. Said she had called and reported it to police. Then the photographer got on.  It was all very weird to say the least. IF true, it certainly makes the point of the non-effectiveness of escorts.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Actually if its the thread that was locked about a the model at the hotel.  She not only changed her story it was so crazy and full of holes as not to be belived at all.  This was a model who had asked about if people would pay to see her nude as
well as posting a few more wacky threads.  Several people felt she was ugly too not that was a issue but she came accross as disturbed.

Different model. The model I'm referring to is a terrific model.

Curt Burgess wrote:
Since I have a background in linguistics, let me provide a free interpretation of TestShoot's sentence.

Class Act Photography wrote:
I didn't know you had a background in linguistics. Very impressive.

Well ... thank you!

I have to admit that my interpretation above is not my best work, but it's close.

Jessalyn wrote:
I heard a funny story about a model who was shooting nude and had her eyes closed and when she opened them the photographer was holding his penis over her. So she said "Need help with that?" and grabbed his penis with a kung fu death grip and proceeded to drag him up and down the stairwell, out in the street, in front of everyone.

Sounds more like an urban legend to me...

Tikeya wrote:
In the past, I've seen "warning" threads posted by models with the intention of warning other models, and then there would be at least one MMer who responds with "I don't believe you"....."Well then, why don't you tell us this photographer's name?" etc.  Well outing isn't allowed on the forums...PMs can be sent to get the details.  A few times I've even seen the photographer of the story post to the thread, claiming that the model is a liar, and the whole thing just gets ugly.

That's exactly it.

Tikeya wrote:

And that is sad.  I read a thread on here a while back (posted by a model about a photog.), and some guy on here doubted her story because he "doesn't believe that a photographer with such an awesome port would do something like that."  OMG, are you kidding me? 

Just because a photographer has a great port, doesn't mean he's not a skeeze-

there are plenty of photographers with killer portfolios that do things they aren't supposed to do. Keep your ears open and you'll find out who they are...

Curt Burgess wrote:
If you think you need an escort, don't go to the shoot.

Profound.

I once showed up for a shoot with a photog from MM and left about 20 min later without shooting - didn't think anything was going to HAPPEN to me, I just didn't feel comfortable... and this is after driving an hour to the location.

TestShoot wrote:

I totally agree that people can eroticize weird shit because of what role it played in their mental and development, but that is why we have things like therapists. Any people actually in the scene have mom dad the golden retriever and apple pie? I mean sure derive pleasure from whatever, I certainly am not forming a coalition or signing a petition to stop anyone from doing that, just saying many many models have had more trouble with this category than others. I tried to Google "model, murder, bondage" but the internet is not 100% accurate so finding newsclippings to link from free sources was very limited.

maybe its regional, these LA wackos? but i have been involved in video productions, shoots and know quite a substantial number of people so I am not just trolling, but pointing out my experience. my brother on the otherhand dates almost exclusively in this market.

The same argument "you're not in to it so you are obviously missing all the good points" is a blanket excuse that has no real way of being resolved that will satisfy the person posing the question.

Edit: I was gonna say something about my day to day life to counter your point, but I am sure, that in this thread we are both subject to generalizations based on our own experiences. anyway, I just got back from Vegas representing a friend's distribution company, I am sure you all know what happened there this past week and this one.

What?? Are you out of your mind or just completely ignorant? I would like to see a reputable study conducted that proves that bondage photography is more dangerous than any other kind of photography, because I can all but assure you that no such thing exists, and therefore you are spewing complete and utter bullshit out your ass.

And yes...plent of people in the scene grew up with a mom, dad, golden retriever, and apple pie. I was raised by both my mother and father in an upper middle class family in a development in small town PA. I was raised Catholic, and went to Sunday school until I was 16. Right now I'm in college studying to be a music teacher. People involved in BDSM come from all walks of life, and BDSM encompasses a LOT of things, some of which are not unusual at all. It's absolutely absurd of you to assume that someone involved in BDSM must have something fundamentally wrong with them. If they're not hurting anyone, why should they see a shrink about it?

Lexloco wrote:
(Disclaimer:  I am an attorney and work with facts.)

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.... I love a little humor in the forums

Lexloco wrote:
(Disclaimer:  I am an attorney and work with facts.)

PerceptionZ Studio wrote:
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.... I love a little humor in the forums

so... you don't care for facts?