Photographer
Payaso_Perverso
Posts: 206
In truth people can ask what ever they want... I have seen some girls walking down the street that I would pay any amount of money I could to get a picture of them in my work... Others who tell me what thier rate is I just kind of giggle and am not sure why... It is a matter of taste and how much cash you got... I think really what fucks up the market " Here is a can of worms" are weekend perverts me I am a full time pervert I have no day job... Pictures of girls pays a chunk of my bills... I need to make money on my work... So I need llamas at a rate that allows profit... A dentist who would like to have a girl do what ever and he can take pictures can pay what ever he wants... So I think a great deal of girls get the wrong idea about the the market. But what should they care money is money. Andc some of the guys are amazing photographers so in truth blame this problem on the new digital world of instant gratifaction that we live in. A place were we can all live out our fantasies for some it is to be a photographer, for others it is to llama... And for many of us just caught in the battle it is to pay the rent with out getting a real job...
Model
NC17
Posts: 1739
Baltimore, Maryland, US
Crucifissa wrote:
I'm a new llama, as new as it gets and I wouldn't DARE ask for pay, not atleast for another year. It would be more logical for a new llama to pay the photographer; unfortunately some llamas can't afford this so theres the wonderful TFP.
I don't think that new llamas should be asking for money, but I guess after the photoshoot it would be cool if the photographer treated the llama to some pizza or something. :-P Hey, don't knock yourself so quickly. You can get into this industry and make money in less than a year. Its all in how you go about it. If you're new, it does make sense not to ask for as much for your rate. That is highly reasonable. Your time is worth something.
Of course you don't have to ask for anything... though I would say that as long as you are being VERY picky in where you choose to gain your experience, then there is nothing wrong with shooting TFP for a year. Being selective is a big part in the kind of experience you gain. Experience with GWC's isn't really going to further your career, experience shooting with really professional high quality photographers will. Both will likely shoot you for TFP arrangements if you ask nicely...its up to you to be sure you're asking in the best way possible.
Model
NC17
Posts: 1739
Baltimore, Maryland, US
Daguerre wrote:
Its interesting to be a fly on the wall and poke a looksee into the GWC world of paid 'figure' llamaing. Its good to see our market system successfully: llamas that cannot compete commercially for day rates in the thousands able to make a happy living finding GWCs with money to spend in the hundreds. I say more power to the GWCs and the llamas they support, like NC17... *grins* You got it!! My real secret is that my rates are low.... low enough that the GWC's like it because I'm a heck of a lot more reasonable than the 150.00divas, and at the same time, my rates capture the market of really GOOD photographers. Its the best of both worlds. hmm... I guess thats not much of a secret now is it?
I don't want to be famous. I doubt I would enjoy it... I have other goals in mind. llamaing is a means to an end at the moment that I thoroughly enjoy. The GWC shoots aren't what keep me going, they keep the dough coming in... its the artists that I shoot with that keep me moving in this industry, and I love it. The money is the bonus because I need the money (gotta save $12,000.00 before July, I'm ALMOST at the 2,000.00 mark!)... if it weren't for that, I wouldn't be so pressed to llama and would do so at a leisurely pace. However, that would mean that I would have to earn the money some other way. And frankly, llamaing is so much fun that I wouldn't want to earn the money any other way!
Model
Jennifer Tyler
Posts: 532
Singapore, Singapore, Singapore
uhhhhh
i always assume it's tfp...... i wouldn't pay photographers to shoot me, so why should they pay me? only thing i ask for is that they don't care if i submit their work to magazines! what the hell is the point of having a portfolio if you don't use it for anything?
Photographer
Virgin Isles Test Shoot
Posts: 334
Flora, Illinois, US
Crucifissa wrote:
I'm a new model, as new as it gets and I wouldn't DARE ask for pay, not atleast for another year. It would be more logical for a new model to pay the photographer; unfortunately some models can't afford this so theres the wonderful TFP.
I don't think that new models should be asking for money, but I guess after the photoshoot it would be cool if the photographer treated the model to some pizza or something. :-P Cool move. You just made every GWC's list!
Gosh...plus a DATE afterwards for pizza and a soda. Wow!
At least ask for sushi, lobster or steak...
Does your mom know about this? Sheesh...youth!
Photographer
Daguerre
Posts: 4082
Orange, California, US
Crucifissa wrote:
I'm a new model, as new as it gets and I wouldn't DARE ask for pay, not atleast for another year. It would be more logical for a new model to pay the photographer; unfortunately some models can't afford this so theres the wonderful TFP.
I don't think that new models should be asking for money, but I guess after the photoshoot it would be cool if the photographer treated the model to some pizza or something. :-P jkmtyro wrote:
Cool move. You just made every GWC's list!
Gosh...plus a DATE afterwards for pizza and a soda. Wow!
At least ask for sushi, lobster or steak...
Does your mom know about this? Sheesh...youth! Dude, Crucifissa can say some pretty whacky stuff, but in this case, she's on solid ground. See, now you're just about money-- would you rather eat something you like, or choke down something that costs alot? I know the answer. 
Photographer
Jmoore Images
Posts: 304
Northville, Michigan, US
Daguerre wrote:
Crucifissa wrote:
I'm a new model, as new as it gets and I wouldn't DARE ask for pay, not atleast for another year. It would be more logical for a new model to pay the photographer; unfortunately some models can't afford this so theres the wonderful TFP.
I don't think that new models should be asking for money, but I guess after the photoshoot it would be cool if the photographer treated the model to some pizza or something. :-P Dude, Crucifissa can say some pretty whacky stuff, but in this case, she's on solid ground. See, now you're just about money-- would you rather eat something you like, or something that costs alot? I know the answer. OK... Forgive me for not knowing the "lingo" here, but what the heck is a GWC??? I'm guessing it's a photographer who just shoots T&A?!?!?!?
Model
Mia Mali
Posts: 1638
Los Angeles, California, US
I'm a broke college student, so I ask for a pretty reasonable rate. If I get rejected, I believe my port is strong enough (I'm not saying incredibly strong, but it's feasible for me to get paid shoots) to book one paid shoot nearly every weekend. I say "I believe" because, generally I do. I've got bills to pay, exams to study for, and no time to work during the week.
Photographer
STUDIOMONA PHOTOGRAPHY
Posts: 33697
Avon, Minnesota, US
Ed Goodwin Photography wrote:
How can McDonalds ask for $2.50 for a Big Mac? Patrick Shipstad wrote:
Because it has twoallbeefpattiesspecialsaucelettucecheesepicklesonionsonasesameseedbun. I prefer a McChicken sandwich
but to answer the OP, I agree with Stan
Photographer
Nic
Posts: 627
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US
C David Stephens wrote:
My cardiologist charges $300 for 10 minutes, and he probably bills at least 30 hours a week. Same with lawyers, plumbers, electricians, all manner of people who charge by the hour, they bill lots of hours per week. Not many models do that, so you can't just multiply X by 40 and assume she's making a fortune.
But none of that matters anyway. Models charge what they can get paid. I've paid several models for their very first, and possibly only paid shoot. They had the look I needed, convinced me that they were capable of doing it, and I didn't have to put up with a lot of crap from agents or sluggos.
If a model can't get paid what she's asking, then she'll either lower her price or quit. Most of them quit.
Are Tom Cruise, Cameron Diaz, Tom Hanks, Julia Roberts, etc. paid millions because they're incredibly talented and experienced? Not at all. They get paid all that money because they sell tickets at the box office. However talented and experienced they might be, there are thousands of other actors more talented and more experienced who can't find enough work at minimum wage to keep up their health insurance. Actually Laywers bill about 100 hours per week minimum! If not thier firm will fire them! Their firm will fire them! There are whores that rape people very day! It's a true fact and anyone that know someone that works in a laywers office will tell you it's true! I had the pleasure of working in a building full of Laywers offices and had smoke breaks with the paralegals etc. I and also have friends that are Laywers so I do know this as fact that it is common practice!
Sorry to spill the beans if there are any Lawyers here but it is the truth! You basterds! (lol)
Nic
Photographer
Dave Booker
Posts: 7
Atlanta, Georgia, US
I have no problem paying a new model $50 an hour with a 2-3 hour minimum for a shoot.
If they do a great job and I see future potential....I will then pay them more for the effort.
If they do a shitty job or come unprepared, I send them home.
And if they are regulars I want to keep them happy and coming.
We all have our different philosophy as to how to handle those we work with. This one works for me.
Photographer
HOTTIE SHOTS
Posts: 6018
Memphis, Tennessee, US
I started out not paying models, because so many needed portfolios that I did not need to pay. But I have had a change of heart on certain issues. I want the model to make money and have an interest in the shoot. So if I am doing ordinary portfolio work I don't pay. But if I am shooting lingerie or nudes I do pay. I negotiate a flat rate for a certain number of hours. I want the model to be paid for her time and I feel like I have a right to tell her what I want if I am paying for her time. Models are in this to make money. some are just helping to make ends meet and some are trying it full time. They deserve compensation.
Photographer
Virgin Isles Test Shoot
Posts: 334
Flora, Illinois, US
Daguerre wrote:
Crucifissa wrote:
I'm a new model, as new as it gets and I wouldn't DARE ask for pay, not atleast for another year. It would be more logical for a new model to pay the photographer; unfortunately some models can't afford this so theres the wonderful TFP.
I don't think that new models should be asking for money, but I guess after the photoshoot it would be cool if the photographer treated the model to some pizza or something. :-P Dude, Crucifissa can say some pretty whacky stuff, but in this case, she's on solid ground. See, now you're just about money-- would you rather eat something you like, or choke down something that costs alot? I know the answer. Ahhhhh...right. From now on, I pay models only with pizza, no more dollars. I can admit when I am wrong. Also means I can keep all of the check from my client, no commission to the model. Why didn't I think of pizza before?
Photographer
Greg Brophy
Posts: 21
New York, New York, US
Pros I know charge $5000 a day and up. That is for a catalog for womens clothing being used for web. $100 isn't taht much. Some of the more famous models make $60,000 a day.
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
The main point has been made (and I agree with it):
>>> Models can ask for whatever they want, regardless of experience.
>>> Photographers can accept, decline, or make a counteroffer.
>>> Ranting here is not productive.
I'd like to make some additional observations:
1) Photographers tend to be older & more financially established than models. Some models are students, some support themselves with minimum wage jobs, and many simply don't have the time to go around posing for free or TFP (especially since they have expenses). They just can't afford it.
2) None of us invented photography -- all of us acquired our skills through the help of others. Paying beginner & wannabe models is one way for us to pay back those who helped us get to where we are today. It never hurts to be generous -- why not encourage these models a little bit?
3) The OP said, "Anyway, some photographers, including myself have spent 10's of thousands of dollars on equipment and countless hours and money on education". I say that the fees requested by these models represent a fraotion of one percent of the photographer's total expenses. Further, it is pre-tax & tax deductible. I don't buy this as an excuse.
4) The two most popular forum topics are "How dare inexperience models ask for pay?" and "That lousy model was a no-show, no-call". I don't have any statistics, but I'm of the opinion that these two issues are related: specifically, I believe that models who are paid (and are happy with their pay) are much more likely to show up, and that models who are TFP and/or not paid are much more likely to flake.
5) I like working with models multiple times -- in fact, I believe that my third session with a model is often the best. Paying models is one way to ensure that the model wants to work with me again.
6) I think photographers tend to value TFP more than models. Models who accept TFP a) don't always get the prints they are promised, and b) don't always get future paying jobs because of the images they made for TFP.
So, guys, suck it up, be generous, and throw a little cash at models to encourage them.
Photographer
Aaron S
Posts: 2651
Syracuse, Indiana, US
Greg Brophy wrote:
Pros I know charge $5000 a day and up. That is for a catalog for womens clothing being used for web. $100 isn't taht much. Some of the more famous models make $60,000 a day. That is because figures in the 5 and 6 digit rates are only for advertising, never editorial rates.
Photographer
Aaron S
Posts: 2651
Syracuse, Indiana, US
C David Stephens wrote:
The OP compared a model asking $50, $75, $100+ per hour to a doctor charging $100+ an hour. He gave the impression that models without experience were charging the same rate as a doctor with years of experience and training. That's not the case. Most doctors I've encountered in the past many years charge hundreds, even thousands of dollars an hour. So comparing a doctor's compensation, who bills 30+ hours a week at $300 for 10 minutes, to a model's compensation of $100 an hour, who bills 2 hours a month, changes the argument considerably.
That's how I could possibly compare those two things. The point was, their work is not even vaguely similar.
You are smart, you can work out the reason doctor's charge what they do, and why they're not very comparable to models.
Photographer
Luminos
Posts: 6065
Columbia, Maryland, US
Looknsee Photography wrote:
The main point has been made (and I agree with it):
>>> Models can ask for whatever they want, regardless of experience.
>>> Photographers can accept, decline, or make a counteroffer.
>>> Ranting here is not productive.
I'd like to make some additional observations:
1) Photographers tend to be older & more financially established than models. Some models are students, some support themselves with minimum wage jobs, and many simply don't have the time to go around posing for free or TFP (especially since they have expenses). They just can't afford it.
2) None of us invented photography -- all of us acquired our skills through the help of others. Paying beginner & wannabe models is one way for us to pay back those who helped us get to where we are today. It never hurts to be generous -- why not encourage these models a little bit?
3) The OP said, "Anyway, some photographers, including myself have spent 10's of thousands of dollars on equipment and countless hours and money on education". I say that the fees requested by these models represent a fraotion of one percent of the photographer's total expenses. Further, it is pre-tax & tax deductible. I don't buy this as an excuse.
4) The two most popular forum topics are "How dare inexperience models ask for pay?" and "That lousy model was a no-show, no-call". I don't have any statistics, but I'm of the opinion that these two issues are related: specifically, I believe that models who are paid (and are happy with their pay) are much more likely to show up, and that models who are TFP and/or not paid are much more likely to flake.
5) I like working with models multiple times -- in fact, I believe that my third session with a model is often the best. Paying models is one way to ensure that the model wants to work with me again.
6) I think photographers tend to value TFP more than models. Models who accept TFP a) don't always get the prints they are promised, and b) don't always get future paying jobs because of the images they made for TFP.
So, guys, suck it up, be generous, and throw a little cash at models to encourage them. While I think there needs to be a limit to the generosity, the above post is similar to ones I've made in the past.
I have also found the best shoot is number 3. Trust has been established, working technique has been learned, and all of the bugs are out of the "system."
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