NC17 wrote:
They rarely know a photograph from a snapshot, and even GWC's have better images than their camera phone "pix" that currently fill their port.

Oh, wow, somebody complimented the photographic skills of GWC's, if only by comparison.  That's a first. 

Iona Lynn wrote:

Sometimes...err once in a while???

I actually have a pretty good selection of fetish gear and custom coesets and such that I pose in...

~~~~~daydreaming~~~~~~

Luminos wrote:
There's a very old joke:

The old neighbor walks up to the kid's lemonade stand and looks at the sign saying, "Lemonde, $100 a glass."

The neighbor tells the kid, "You won't sell many glasses of lemonade at $100 a glass."

The kid looks at him like he's a fool.  "I only have to sell ONE!"

I suspect there is a bit of that kind of thought at work.

LOL!

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
Bear in mind that some models do charge from day one and there are people who pay them.

Another thing to bear in mind is that for some amateurs (or I guess some pros, I know at least two pro photographers who make way more money than I do) if the model says she wants $200/hr, and they feel like shooting her, they literally do not care about $200/hr. They're just going to pay it. If I didn't have such an unpleasant financial situation, frankly, it wouldn't be anything to *me* to pay a grand or two in modeling fees a month just for fun, and I don't really make the big money. I *wouldn't,* but I easily could.

Yes, this messes it up for people who don't have a big budget. Yes, this creates unrealistic expectations on the part of models. But it's their money to spend, so if they choose to spend it that way, the rest of us should just politely ignore the foolish requests that the occasional photographic spendthrift generates. Models learn soon enough what is typical and what is not, or they don't get a lot of gigs.

M

Aaron S wrote:

How can you possibly compare these two things?

He he he... welcome to the neighborhood! Personally, I work it something like this...

I'm an IT guy by day and dabble as an amateur photographer. But I'll come back to that in a minute.

I also dabble as an amateur in the following fields and here are my rates should you choose to pay them. Because, let's face it, most people seem to agree that we can charge whatever we want, because we think we can, because some walking dead moron might stumble aimlessly into our lives and actually pay it.

Engineer: I like to specialize in large bridges. I have no experience to speak of but I charge $300 an hour for this kind of work. If you give me the chance, I'll build you one hell of a bridge. Cause, I think I can, I think I can. And, Cause I think some dufus will eventually pay me this amount of money for it so it's fair for me to ask for it and expect to get it. Please, take me seriously.

Dentist: I've kind of experimented with dentistry in my garage with big wood teeth. I've also had tons of cavities my whole life and have spent a lot of time in a real dentist's chair. So, I think then that it's fair for me to charge about $175 an hour for my dentistry work. Cause I think some dufus will eventually pay me this amount of money for it so it's fair for me to ask for it and expect to get it. Please, take me seriously.

Optometrist: Eyes have always fascinated me. So, I started to think I'd like to operate on people's eyes. Plus, I think lasers are really cool and I just want to start to do things with people's eyes and laser beams. For this I charge $225 an hour. Cause, I know lots of people don't want to wear glasses and might not to be able to afford an Optometrist that went to college and has a license to be a doctor and stuff. So I think some dufus will eventually pay me this amount of money for it so it's fair for me to ask for it and expect to get it. Please, take me seriously.

Creative Writer: I like to make up stories. Nobody has ever told me they like them but no matter how hard I try, I can't stop marketing myself as one. I have no clue what a real creative writer does. I've read their stories in books and magazines but I have no training, I don't spell goud and my gramner isn't always the best as what as another person could put in a sentence well. And my sentence structure. But I love speaking english and writing down the things that I think sometimes is fun for me to do. So, I charge $85 per an hour for that service. Cause I think some dufus will eventually pay me this amount of money for it so it's fair for me to ask for it and expect to get it. Please, take me seriously.

Photographer: TFCD.

Patrick Shipstad wrote:
Okay, I know I'm opening a can of worms here, but I've always been curious how amateur models (models without an agency or list of impressive credits) can ask for $50, $75, $100+ dollars an hour for modeling.

I've happily paid models $300-400 for a 2-3 hour session. More if they do their own hair and make-up on a pro level. They also have supplied gorgeous wardrobe. But some models (not all.. I'm not generalizing, just making a point) show up with a duffle bag and a handful of wrinkled cheap clothes...emphasis on the wrinkled!

Anyway, some photographers, including myself have spent 10's of thousands of dollars on equipment and countless hours and money on education, and I sure don't get that kind of dough! I mean, I sincerely want everyone to make a lot of money doing what they love to do.. but aren't there some dues to be paid to earn that level of pay?

What should they charge? I don't know..I'm sure it depends on the assignment .. but doctor's make $100+ an hour and people who have years of experience at a professional craft, sometimes don't make $50 hr. So please tell me how an amateur model can ask for the same rate..I'm really curious about this.

Because they are called a "GWB" that is a Girl With Body
very closely related to the “GWC”
They just come first, alphabetically that is.

Patrick Shipstad wrote:
Okay, I know I'm opening a can of worms here, but I've always been curious how amateur models (models without an agency or list of impressive credits) can ask for $50, $75, $100+ dollars an hour for modeling.

I've happily paid models $300-400 for a 2-3 hour session. More if they do their own hair and make-up on a pro level. They also have supplied gorgeous wardrobe. But some models (not all.. I'm not generalizing, just making a point) show up with a duffle bag and a handful of wrinkled cheap clothes...emphasis on the wrinkled!

Anyway, some photographers, including myself have spent 10's of thousands of dollars on equipment and countless hours and money on education, and I sure don't get that kind of dough! I mean, I sincerely want everyone to make a lot of money doing what they love to do.. but aren't there some dues to be paid to earn that level of pay?

What should they charge? I don't know..I'm sure it depends on the assignment .. but doctor's make $100+ an hour and people who have years of experience at a professional craft, sometimes don't make $50 hr. So please tell me how an amateur model can ask for the same rate..I'm really curious about this.

+


It is just business. You can take the deal or not.

ADGibson wrote:
Come on...None of these models make that kinda money to shoot. They can demand whatever they want, but they won't get it.

Ahh, but they do, and thus they continue to ask for that kind of money. I was OFFERED that kind of money when I first started out and didn't understand the business so well. GWC types capitalize on new model's ignorence (they don't know what they don't know... how could they!) and exploit that weakness to their benefit waving big dollar signs. If the models aren't smart then they fall into the trap and stay there. If they are smart, they realize that the photographers aren't that good, and move on trying to get to bigger and better things, that will benefit them in the long run, such as being selective about who they choose to shoot with and reasonable about their rates to attract "better buyers."

PapaVic Photography wrote:
The models who are here strictly for the money will find no shortage of GWCs with sufficient cash.

They will get what they deserve: $$$ and a port full of crappy-to-mediocre motel-room nudes.

Mmmm, don't be so quick to judge. There are those of us that are smart enough to get the good pics and still exploit the GWC's weaknesses all at once. GWC's are some of my main clientel, if their money is green, I might as well take it. However, I know where my goals lie and know how to define my own success.

Vivus Denuo wrote:

Oh, wow, somebody complimented the photographic skills of GWC's, if only by comparison.  That's a first. 

*laughs* People always seem to knock the GWCs... but I think they knock them for the wrong reasons. Really now, is someone that manages to get pretty girls naked and take pictures as often as he wants all that stupid? He even has the images to prove it, which last him a lifetime of jerking off. He knows enough to talk the talk well enough to seduce girls into getting what he wants before he moves on to the next model. These are often (though not always) the ones that you see with "credits" for models that they've shot with in their bios that are hundreds long.

The nature of people is fascinating. Its often the ones that society gives the least credit to that are the smartest.

Herb Way wrote:
Very mature insight.  Guess I won't give up on twentysomethings just yet.

Please don't! There are plenty of us that are quite something to contend with
Thank you for the complement.

stonescorpion wrote:
I've got to agree with the spirit of "A model can ask for X ammount and that won't mean they'll get it..." 

I've seen some very poor (i'm talking BADLY done, Cheap camera phone quality) portfolios, of some very beautiful models, and the model is asking for: NO LESS than $300 an hour, 2 hour minimum shoot, travel expenses paid, MUA and all outfits must be provided, etc.... And these are models who don't have any work to back up their demands.

I have indeed politely suggested, to one of the models I'm referring to above, that she be a little more reasonable for X number of reasons.

Her reaction.  Absolute silence.  But she did lower her fee, to $200 an hour.

I GET that models might not work regularly.  I GET that images can go across the world, that they can sell a book, poster, product... and make the photographer lots of bank.   That once a nude is out there it can never be removed.  That it's damn hard to hold still in some amazingly strange and complicated poses and setting.  That a good model is worth her weight in gold... I Get that, I really do.

But a model should EARN the money, with reputation, a good portfolio and one hell of a work ethic.

I busted my ass for 7 years to be a PT.  The idea that someone thinks that with no formal training, no contribution to the creative project, and no experience they can ask for such a large ammount of money per hour is.... absurd.

My $0.02

Scorp

I understand where you are coming from but...
A models career is often very short.  It may only last a year or so.  She really
doesn't have time to waste.  Keep in mind in this case I'm speaking of fashion
level girls.  There is a huge difference between a photographer who has a
learning curve and equipment to buy and a attractive model with nothing to
really add but being attractive.  If I were a pretty girl showing my myself for
photographers and getting lots of interest then I'd look for $300.00 a hour also.

If I didn't get many or any bites then I'd lower my rate.  A attractive model
doesn't really need a world class portfolio but we do.  A attractive model
doesn't require a work ethic because on-line and in the real world there are
plenty of men with cash willing to pay.  I recently read about a young web cam
girl.  She is under 18 and has a web cam in her bedroom.  She's never
nude that people can see but she's in lingerie, etc. and chats all the time
with people.

This young lady makes around $2,000.00 per month.  This is after school and
on weekends that she appears.  She gets gifts too.  I wonder how many
models who are over 18 but pretend to be underage are around.  There are
lots of models making $300.00 per hour by working with GWC'S.  I again
understand where your coming from but as my friends say.  'Don't hate the
playa hate the game.'

2020 Vision wrote:
Because they are called a "GWB" that is a Girl With Body
very closely related to the “GWC”
They just come first, alphabetically that is.

Are there more GWB's on the site, or GWC's?

Hereafter, I guess we can thank 2020 for providing the definition - body, no experience/talent, but big fee.

Iona Lynn wrote:

Yes they can, and yes they do...

Although I have never showed up with a wrinkled bag of clothing...

So then I assume you have made enough in the last couple years to retire.

jkmtyro wrote:
Say...anyone ever heard of the model or actor who was accidently discovered while serving tea in a coffee shop?

Yep.  But she wasn't charging $100 per cuppa.

Luminos wrote:

Yep.  But she wasn't charging $100 per cuppa.

Maybe she was...in an L.A. Starbucks!

jkmtyro wrote:
The models ask me to TFP/TFCD to 'benefit' my portfolio and theirs. Huh? Should I take that as an insult? What's wrong with my portfolio? It is making me plenty of money.

*laughs* I have heard the SAME thing from the other side of the fence. Its quite insulting to have a photographer insist that I need better images for my port, and that I need his images for my port... as if I can't decide myself what will and will not benefit my own port... good grief!! Its quite insulting as I consider myself to be pretty darn successful. Six shoots in 11 days sounds pretty successful to me (it is a record, but still...)

Ahh well, sometimes people aren't all that bright...

Well written post!

Patrick Shipstad wrote:
very true and good point. I guess I feel like they're pricing themselves out of the game right out of the gate. But I never thought to counter offer anyone. thanks for the response.

I used to ask llama how much they charged for shoots, but I normally received over inflated rates. I hate to negotiate, if a llama say a price I either pay or say No thanks, I’ll find another llama. So I have now started to make my offers very clear
1. Amount of time the shoot will take
2. Level of llamaing required  (bikini, lingerie, nude)
3. I quote amount the shoot pays.
This has really reduced the amount of silliness.

Rene Vickers wrote:
This is where the negotions come into play. The photographer calls or emails you with his proposal. Write him back or ask him: "How many others involved in this?"
If he says five, or two, say: "Who did you call first?"  His answer will tell you where you stand in the Preferred llama queue.  Negotiate accordingly.  Good luck.

LOL, so what your saying is that I should always tell the llama she is the last one I called? Lmao…thanks for the tip.

Herb Way wrote:
In many cases, you can blame the beer bellied, horny GWC's who have inflated the egos of many of these llama wannabe's by paying $50 to $100 an hour to see them nude or scantily clad.  Personally, I see little difference between that and stuffing bills into the g-strings of "dancers" at titty bars.

I blame these guys for not only paying llamas their inflated rates, but then turning around and giving them a Photo CD full of every image taken at the shoot. I can’t even count how many times I have contacted a llama for a paid shoot, and received a reply that they also required a photo CD of every  images taken at the shoot…???? Like I said I don’t negotiate ….What are they going to do with the images, anyway?  The llama release I use when paying a llama strictly prohibits the llama from using the images at all.


?

Because it has twoallbeefpattiesspecialsaucelettucecheesepicklesonionsonasesameseedbun.

LOL, I have not laughed that hard in a while…



This debate will never end, and it will pop again in a few weeks by some other photographer who's had it with silly over inflated rates from unexperienced internet llamas...not that all llamas on the internet are bad, but just like Photographers have to put up with the GWC stigma, legitamate llamas have to put up with silly wannabe internet llamas.

that's my $0.02 , thanks for letting me vent.

Gabe

Patrick Shipstad wrote:
I don't know..I'm sure it depends on the assignment .. but doctor's make $100  an hour and people who have years of experience at a professional craft, sometimes don't make $50 hr. So please tell me how an amateur llama can ask for the same rate..I'm really curious about this.

If people are willing to pay for it then I guess that is why they can ask that rate.  Some people want consistent work and some people want the occassional big pay day.  It's all a part of the market place.

Gabes Photography wrote:
I used to ask llama how much they charged for shoots, but I normally received over inflated rates. I hate to negotiate, if a llama say a price I either pay or say No thanks, I’ll find another llama. So I have now started to make my offers very clear
1. Amount of time the shoot will take
2. Level of llamaing required  (bikini, lingerie, nude)
3. I quote amount the shoot pays.
This has really reduced the amount of silliness.

Thank you!! Finally someone that is to the point and knows how to actually put valuable information in an initial inquiry. Fishing for whatever it is that a photographer wants to do for a shoot after being contacted gets frustrating and tiring, especially when I don't have the time to waste.

I don't mind negotiating. This is business to me. At the end of the day I've got to be sure that I get what *I* feel is worth my time. If I shot with every photographer that wandered along and requested TFP/CD shoots, I'd end up with a whole hell of a lot of crappy photos to show for it. So I limit my shoots to extremely selective TFP situations (most of which I initiate) and paid work. I also don't mind negotiating rates, time, hours, travel, etc. Things are flexible, I'd be a fool to attempt to maintain everything rigid all the time. The important thing is knowing when to adjust and when to stay firm.

Glad to see that there is someone out there thats smart enough to supply the important in the initial inquiry!!

Monica Jay wrote:
Ah, let them dig their own grave.

Unless they're amazing and have something great to offer, I wouldn't pay a llama. I could care less about experience.

Hmmm... you are a llama?

" Manhattan Island (NYC) was purchased by Peter Minuit from Native Americans for $24 worth of beads and trinkets in 1626. "

The only value something has, is what someone places on it.