M Day Photo and Retouch wrote:
Hello newbies to the modeling world I had to post in here because as I get back into shooting models it seems every model I work with has their horror stories about photogs and creepy scumbags. I wanted to post something to give you all some good advice from my experiences and the things I've heard. I was a cop for 7 years before turning to photography so safety is key to me and when I hear these stories, some are unbelievable!

#1 - Always trust your gut! Don't be naive. The number one scam with photogs is they brag about being published, call them self a professional photog, and convince you if you just come shoot with them they will get you published in Maxim or Playboy. First off Playboy. There are only like 2 photogs in Fl that have the power to get you into playboy unless its miss social, which you can submit yourself. Maxim has a hometown hotties section which again you can submit yourself. If you read a photogs profile and it seems like they are bragging a little bit too much, then they probably are. I've seen small (nonprofessional) photographers brag up the butt that they shoot celebrities and for "major" companies. lol please do you research. A professional photographer is described as a photog that makes a decent living as a photographer. There aren't many out thee.

#2 - Be CAREFUL!!!!! Do a simple google search of the photog. A photog should work hard on gaining a good reputation. So check out the web and see if any previous models have complained. It's the internet so if there's only 1 thing out there about a photographer than whatever but if you search them and 10 pages of complaints come up and a failing BBB grade. Well common sense tells you it's prob not a good idea.

#3 - Protect yourself! Always sign a release! Make sure if you're doing a TF shoot that somewhere on the release it says you will be credited and that if any of these images are sold you get a percentage. Usually I give a model 20% but 15-20 is norm. Don't let photogs talk you into controlling the distribution of the images unless thats clearly stated on the release. I always send the model the release a week before the shoot so they can read it if they want. I would suggest you asking for this. If the photog refuses to send you the release then theres prob a reason why....

#4 - Always have a pre-agreed upon description of the shoot. Details! The biggest complaint I get is a photog will tell a girl to come over for a fashion shoot then when they're in the middle of the shoot he'll tell her to take her clothes off. This is EXTREMELY unprofessional! Don't be afraid to say no. Expect this because it will happen to you, if it already hasn't. My ex was a model and even when I was with her at a shoot the photog would do this. And even made her feel like crap because she refused. Like put her down and yelled at her. Ya that didn't go over well with me.

#5 - Escorts! Bring them! HOWEVER you must explain to them that they are not to interfere with the shoot at all. They are to sit nice and quiet and not say one word. Don't bring your boyfriend that never goes well because they usually end up interfering with the shoot. Bring a friend. Always tell someone where you are going and who the photog is. Even tell them I'll text you in 4 hours, if you don't hear from me call the police! Safety is #1!!!!

#6 - Pay.... lol well we all want to get paid, right? However sometimes you do this for the love of the art not just to get paid. Never do a free nude shoot unless you want to submit the images somewhere or you are wanting to do that kind of photography and need to build your port. Don't expect to get paid for every shoot! Especially at the beginning of your career. You need to build your port and your name before you start demanding money. If you don't have a name (famous) then why would someone pay you to shoot for their portfolio? Now if the photog is planning on selling the images. You best get paid!

To sum up. Just be careful out there. There are a lot of creeps and guys with cameras. A lot of them are on this site. Just use your common sense and do your research about a photog. I mean this is your safety we are talking about. It's unfortunate because a lot of good models have been turned away from modeling because of crappy photogs so it effects all of us. Use your gut feeling and common sense and you will go far. Don't expect to make a ton of money and do this for the art and you'll be fine!

Matt

Great post... Sire.....




I'm not going to even bother responding to some of the more ridiculous nonsense in this steaming pile of shit.


Just my $0.02 etc. etc.

Another Italian Guy wrote:
I'm not going to even bother responding to some of the more ridiculous nonsense in this steaming pile of shit.

LOL...I agree. There is so much bullshit in there it's not even worth responding to. This is how I predict this thread will go:

Paradise Rodriguez wrote:
If someone is telling you "you cannot bring any type of escort with you because they make me nervous or something along the lines of that...DO NOT shoot with them.  They will often say professional models do not have escorts and that is the biggest lie. MOST DO, but they're not their best friend or bf, they are hired security.
    There is a lot of truth to your post. Keep up the great work because models like myself ALWAYS do research and we have an awesome little "black list" that we all pass around making other models aware of the bad "photographers" .
Happy shooting!

No, there is a lot of fearmongering lies in his post, but someone who just fell off the turnip truck wouldn't know that. I'm sorry Ms. Rodriguez but as someone who started earning an income from photography when you were still learning your A-B-Cs I can state from professional experience that much of what the OP states is complete pandering nonsense.

Furthermore, his (and your) position on "escorts" is equally ridiculous. Just scan through any of the millions of threads on this website dealing with the topic and you'll see why.

aspergianLens wrote:
What a bunch of fear-mongering garbage.

+1

Unfortunately, it's not the kind of bullshit that one could feed to the roses.

M Day Photo and Retouch wrote:
Prime examples.....

LOL - nice way to introduce yourself.

I predict that your time on MM will be significantly less productive as a result of this ridiculous thread.

Forum suicide 101.

Paradise Rodriguez wrote:
Thank you for being bluntly honest. You may have frightened a few amateur models away, but the professional models, like myself , thank you for being 100% honest.

So cute.

Good to see you sticking up for your buddy.

Good also to know that he has at least one model who agrees with every word he says!




Just my $0.02 etc. etc.

Marin Photography NYC wrote:
My advice to the OP -

Models aren't the only ones with safety concerns.

You want some pill popping drug addict in your studio, by all means...follow your own advice.

You are 100% right ... but the context of this post was towards models. But you're are right, there are a ton of models who are bad as well.

Im not on here to start internet fights with people. These issues have been brought up to me several times when working with models so I gave my opinion, if anyone on here doesn't like my opnion, ignore it, easy as that. It seems only photogs have a problem with what I'm saying. I dont know why they are taking it so personal.

M Day Photo and Retouch wrote:
I dont know why they are taking it so personal.

Maybe because you basically called everybody who doesn't agree with all your ridiculous 'advice' a creepy scumbag?

Dunno... just a wild guess...





Just my $0.02 etc. etc.

Another Italian Guy wrote:

Maybe because you basically called everybody who doesn't agree with all your ridiculous 'advice' a creepy scumbag?

Dunno... just a wild guess...





Just my $0.02 etc. etc.

+1

Blanket statements don't work.  Forum rule numero uno!   

Some people are creeps and scumbags....not all of us.

I work with agency models and none of them ever bring an escort.

Not offended just watch how you word things.

Another Italian Guy wrote:

Maybe because you basically called everybody who doesn't agree with all your ridiculous 'advice' a creepy scumbag?

Dunno... just a wild guess...

I'm not sure when I called u a creepy scumbag? And ya apparently everyone assumes I am talking about EVERY PHOTOGRAPHER. Which I never said and if I did that would be stupid, i'd be calling myself a scumbag. I did take down the post that prob offended you lol if that eases your pain.

Marin Photography NYC wrote:

+1

Blanket statements don't work.  Forum rule numero uno!   

Some people are creeps and scumbags....not all of us.

I work with agency models and none of them ever bring an escort.

Not offended just watch how you word things.

I've worked with several models who've never brought an escort. Doesn't mean it's not a good idea. I can't imagine a brand new model being an agency model? I would think they'd have to have some experience.

M Day Photo and Retouch wrote:
I've worked with several models who've never brought an escort. Doesn't mean it's not a good idea. I can't imagine a brand new model being an agency model? I would think they'd have to have some experience.

Nope, don't need experience to be an agency. The right look is all that matters.

M Day Photo and Retouch wrote:
I had to post in here because as I get back into shooting models it seems every model I work with has their horror stories about photogs and creepy scumbags. I

M Day Photo and Retouch wrote:
I'm not sure when I called u a creepy scumbag? And ya apparently everyone assumes I am talking about EVERY PHOTOGRAPHER.

No, just every photographer that has worked with a model.

M Day Photo and Retouch wrote:
I can't imagine a brand new model being an agency model? I would think they'd have to have some experience.

You are 100% wrong on this.

Many agency 'new faces' have never had any kind of 'professional' photoshoot before they're signed at the age of 14-19. They send in a couple of selfies via email or walk in the door and they get taken on because they have 'the look'.

They are then sent out to tests alone to build their book. Usually if they're under 18 the agency will try to ensure that at least a MUA is present, but not always.

There is so much misinformation, fearmongering and general mudslinging, white-knighting nonsense in your original post that even if you meant well you're going to be fighting an uphill battle from here on in.

My advice would be to leave this thread now and try to pretend that it never existed.




Just my $0.02 etc. etc.

M Day Photo and Retouch wrote:
I had to post in here because as I get back into shooting models it seems every model I work with has their horror stories about photogs and creepy scumbags.

Everyone I've met from this site so far has been lovely!

Mark Salo wrote:

M Day Photo and Retouch wrote:
I had to post in here because as I get back into shooting models it seems every model I work with has their horror stories about photogs and creepy scumbags. I

No, just every photographer that has worked with a model.

If thats how you want to view that.... go ahead lol Still no where in there did I call u or anyone else on this thread a scumbag so keep taking it personal I guess? Models work with several photogs and I never said the models told me EVERY photographer they've ever worked with were scumbags.... good lord people we are very sensitive in these threads lol

Another Italian Guy wrote:

You are 100% wrong on this.

Many agency 'new faces' have never had any kind of 'professional' photoshoot before they're signed at the age of 14-19. They send in a couple of selfies via email or walk in the door and they get taken on because they have 'the look'.

They are then sent out to tests alone to build their book. Usually if they're under 18 the agency will try to ensure that at least a MUA is present, but not always.

There is so much misinformation, fearmongering and general mudslinging, white-knighting nonsense in your original post that even if you meant well you're going to be fighting an uphill battle from here on in.

My advice would be to leave this thread now and try to pretend that it never existed.

Thank you for pointing that out, I hope it made your day .

M Day Photo and Retouch wrote:
Thank you for pointing that out, I hope it made your day .

You've made the day for all of us!

Paradise Rodriguez wrote:
If someone is telling you "you cannot bring any type of escort with you because they make me nervous or something along the lines of that...DO NOT shoot with them.  They will often say professional models do not have escorts and that is the biggest lie. MOST DO, but they're not their best friend or bf, they are hired security.

This is total BS!  I've worked with countless professional models and I can only think of one that wanted to bring an escort.  As far as professional models hiring security, there are not many professional models that could afford to hire someone to go to shoots with them unless the model has reached celebrity status and is pulling in millions of dollars each year.

Mark Salo wrote:

You've made the day for all of us!

Im glad

M Day Photo and Retouch wrote:
Hello newbies to the modeling world I had to post in here because as I get back into shooting models it seems every model I work with has their horror stories about photogs and creepy scumbags. I wanted to post something to give you all some good advice from my experiences and the things I've heard. I was a cop for 7 years before turning to photography so safety is key to me and when I hear these stories, some are unbelievable!

#1 - Always trust your gut! Don't be naive. The number one scam with photogs is they brag about being published, call them self a professional photog, and convince you if you just come shoot with them they will get you published in Maxim or Playboy. First off Playboy. There are only like 2 photogs in Fl that have the power to get you into playboy unless its miss social, which you can submit yourself. Maxim has a hometown hotties section which again you can submit yourself. If you read a photogs profile and it seems like they are bragging a little bit too much, then they probably are. I've seen small (nonprofessional) photographers brag up the butt that they shoot celebrities and for "major" companies. lol please do you research. A professional photographer is described as a photog that makes a decent living as a photographer. There aren't many out thee.

#2 - Be CAREFUL!!!!! Do a simple google search of the photog. A photog should work hard on gaining a good reputation. So check out the web and see if any previous models have complained. It's the internet so if there's only 1 thing out there about a photographer than whatever but if you search them and 10 pages of complaints come up and a failing BBB grade. Well common sense tells you it's prob not a good idea.

#3 - Protect yourself! Always sign a release! Make sure if you're doing a TF shoot that somewhere on the release it says you will be credited and that if any of these images are sold you get a percentage. Usually I give a model 20% but 15-20 is norm. Don't let photogs talk you into controlling the distribution of the images unless thats clearly stated on the release. I always send the model the release a week before the shoot so they can read it if they want. I would suggest you asking for this. If the photog refuses to send you the release then theres prob a reason why....

#4 - Always have a pre-agreed upon description of the shoot. Details! The biggest complaint I get is a photog will tell a girl to come over for a fashion shoot then when they're in the middle of the shoot he'll tell her to take her clothes off. This is EXTREMELY unprofessional! Don't be afraid to say no. Expect this because it will happen to you, if it hasn't already. My ex was a model and even when I was with her at a shoot the photog would do this. And even made her feel like crap because she refused. Like put her down and yelled at her. Ya that didn't go over well with me.

#5 - Escorts! Bring them! HOWEVER you must explain to them that they are not to interfere with the shoot at all. They are to sit nice and quiet and not say one word. Don't bring your boyfriend that never goes well because they usually end up interfering with the shoot. Bring a friend. Always tell someone where you are going and who the photog is. Even tell them I'll text you in 4 hours, if you don't hear from me call the police! Safety is #1!!!!

#6 - Pay.... lol well we all want to get paid, right? However sometimes you do this for the love of the art not just to get paid. Never do a free nude shoot unless you want to submit the images somewhere or you are wanting to do that kind of photography and need to build your port. Don't expect to get paid for every shoot! Especially at the beginning of your career. You need to build your port and your name before you start demanding money. If you don't have a name (famous) then why would someone pay you to shoot for their portfolio? Now if the photog is planning on selling the images. You best get paid!

To sum up. Just be careful out there. There are a lot of creeps and guys with cameras. A lot of them are on this site. Just use your common sense and do your research about a photog. I mean this is your safety we are talking about. It's unfortunate because a lot of good models have been turned away from modeling because of crappy photogs so it effects all of us. Use your gut feeling and common sense and you will go far. Don't expect to make a ton of money and do this for the art and you'll be fine!

Matt

Let's take an objective look at Matt's post.  There are some good points there but they're buried in so much misinformation that the good points are easily missed.

1-  Trusting your gut is a good first step, but that doesn't mean that you should assume that every photographer is out to get you.  Sure there are some bad guys out there but they are very much in the minority.  If Matt actually was a police officer for seven years then he should be aware that model photography is one of the safest activities for a young woman.  Far fewer incidents than are associated with the club scene, for example.  More assaults occur each year in parking lots than photography studios.  So do your due diligence, check references, meet first in a public place if practical, etc.   Here's a list of the most recent 1000 Model Mayhem forum posts dealing with model safety: https://www.sendu.me.uk/modelmayhem/?te … rt_order=0  Some good reading there and more useful than this fearmongering.

2- Nothing wrong here but it doesn't go far enough.  See above.

3- is completely wrong.  A release does nothing to protect the model.  The release simply grants the photographer permission to use the model's likeness commercially.  It's for the protection of the photographer, not the model.  As far as control of the pictures, that is the photographer's right under copyright in most countries.  You might want to take a look at www.copyright.gov  It will tell you everything you need to know about copyright.  What Matt's talking about would be part of a usage agreement and possibly an employment contract, not a release.  For threads discussing model releases, see https://www.sendu.me.uk/modelmayhem/?te … rt_order=0  Oh, yes, I doubt if you'll ever find a professional photographer who will agree to a percentage of profits agreement because they would be too difficult to enforce.  How could he ever keep track of the hundreds of models he's shot with for the life of the copyright (his life plus 70 years)?  Models are normally paid by the hour or the shoot or sometimes simply with pictures.

4- Yes all details of the shoot need to be discussed and agreed to.  It can be in person, on the phone, by email, etc. and it can be as loose or as restrictive as the parties agree to make it.  The situation Matt describes with his wife is called sexual assault, at the very least and can get the person doing it a lot of jail time.  That's why it's actually pretty rare.  As an ex-cop, I wonder why he doesn't point that out.  If a photographer (or even the guy next to you on the bus or the guy at the Sunday-School picnic) gets out of line, tell him to stop, in no uncertain terms and if he doesn't, leave and report the incident to the authorities.

5- Well you can insist on a escort if you want, but then the photographer is entitled to have an escort to keep an eye on your escort to make sure he doesn't steal anything and then your escort will need an escort to protect himself from the photographer's escort who will need . . . . . .  You see how silly the whole thing gets?  If you want to have a friend along and if the photographer's OK with it, why not?  But understand that just by asking for an escort you are injecting an element of distrust into what should be a very comfortable relationship.  Don't be surprised if the photographer says no.  For myself, I simply break off negotiations if a model indicates that she fears for her safety in shooting with me.  Frightened people do stupid things and it's much easier to simply avoid the risk.  There are plenty of other models out there.

6-  Well!  Finally there's some good advice here with only a little bit testosterone-dripping male chauvinism.  Matt's right, you should be paid for your efforts (if that's your goal and if the photographer feels your work is worth the ask price) and he's also right that the big bucks aren't going to roll in right away if indeed they ever do.  But you can have a lot of fun along the way and meet a lot of fun interesting people in the process.  So keep working on your modeling skills, shoot as much as you can with as many people as you can, and always take intelligent safety precautions whether going to a shoot or going to the supermarket.

And enjoy!

All IMHO as always, of course.

Rays Fine Art wrote:
5- Well you can insist on a escort if you want, but then the photographer is entitled to have an escort to keep an eye on your escort to make sure he doesn't steal anything and then your escort will need an escort to protect himself from the photographer's escort who will need . . . . . .  You see how silly the whole thing gets?  If you want to have a friend along and if the photographer's OK with it, why not?  But understand that just by asking for an escort you are injecting an element of distrust into what should be a very comfortable relationship.  Don't be surprised if the photographer says no.  For myself, I simply break off negotiations if a model indicates that she fears for her safety in shooting with me.  Frightened people do stupid things and it's much easier to simply avoid the risk.  There are plenty of other models out there.

+1

Mark Salo wrote:

No, just every photographer that has worked with a model.

Except the OP.

I will assume the post was made to steer some new Models in His direction.

Rays Fine Art wrote:

Ray makes good points.  I would like to add a few comments.

3- How will "profit" be determined?  Apply depreciation, salary for time shooting (probably equal to the model's fee), salary for time retouching, for art sales the cost of the frame and mat, time shopping for the frame, etc?  And will the photographer allow the model to audit his books?

6- OP said, "If you don't have a name (famous) then why would someone pay you to shoot for their portfolio?"

I've paid lots of models who were not famous.  I enjoy creating beauty and art.  I use the images in my portfolio.  Occasionally I exhibit in a gallery.  Does that make me a sleaze?

Rays Fine Art wrote:

Let's take an objective look at Matt's post.  There are some good points there but they're buried in so much misinformation that the good points are easily missed.

1-  Trusting your gut is a good first step, but that doesn't mean that you should assume that every photographer is out to get you.  Sure there are some bad guys out there but they are very much in the minority.  If Matt actually was a police officer for seven years then he should be aware that model photography is one of the safest activities for a young woman.  Far fewer incidents than are associated with the club scene, for example.  More assaults occur each year in parking lots than photography studios.  So do your due diligence, check references, meet first in a public place if practical, etc.   Here's a list of the most recent 1000 Model Mayhem forum posts dealing with model safety: https://www.sendu.me.uk/modelmayhem/?te … rt_order=0  Some good reading there and more useful than this fearmongering.

2- Nothing wrong here but it doesn't go far enough.  See above.

3- is completely wrong.  A release does nothing to protect the model.  The release simply grants the photographer permission to use the model's likeness commercially.  It's for the protection of the photographer, not the model.  As far as control of the pictures, that is the photographer's right under copyright in most countries.  You might want to take a look at www.copyright.gov  It will tell you everything you need to know about copyright.  What Matt's talking about would be part of a usage agreement and possibly an employment contract, not a release.  For threads discussing model releases, see https://www.sendu.me.uk/modelmayhem/?te … rt_order=0  Oh, yes, I doubt if you'll ever find a professional photographer who will agree to a percentage of profits agreement because they would be too difficult to enforce.  How could he ever keep track of the hundreds of models he's shot with for the life of the copyright (his life plus 70 years)?  Models are normally paid by the hour or the shoot or sometimes simply with pictures.

4- Yes all details of the shoot need to be discussed and agreed to.  It can be in person, on the phone, by email, etc. and it can be as loose or as restrictive as the parties agree to make it.  The situation Matt describes with his wife is called sexual assault, at the very least and can get the person doing it a lot of jail time.  That's why it's actually pretty rare.  As an ex-cop, I wonder why he doesn't point that out.  If a photographer (or even the guy next to you on the bus or the guy at the Sunday-School picnic) gets out of line, tell him to stop, in no uncertain terms and if he doesn't, leave and report the incident to the authorities.

5- Well you can insist on a escort if you want, but then the photographer is entitled to have an escort to keep an eye on your escort to make sure he doesn't steal anything and then your escort will need an escort to protect himself from the photographer's escort who will need . . . . . .  You see how silly the whole thing gets?  If you want to have a friend along and if the photographer's OK with it, why not?  But understand that just by asking for an escort you are injecting an element of distrust into what should be a very comfortable relationship.  Don't be surprised if the photographer says no.  For myself, I simply break off negotiations if a model indicates that she fears for her safety in shooting with me.  Frightened people do stupid things and it's much easier to simply avoid the risk.  There are plenty of other models out there.

6-  Well!  Finally there's some good advice here with only a little bit testosterone-dripping male chauvinism.  Matt's right, you should be paid for your efforts (if that's your goal and if the photographer feels your work is worth the ask price) and he's also right that the big bucks aren't going to roll in right away if indeed they ever do.  But you can have a lot of fun along the way and meet a lot of fun interesting people in the process.  So keep working on your modeling skills, shoot as much as you can with as many people as you can, and always take intelligent safety precautions whether going to a shoot or going to the supermarket.

And enjoy!

All IMHO as always, of course.

Well being you have just made this a personal attack on my credibility, I will respond. This post was never a personal attack on any photographer. You brought up good points and gave some good links which was great I appreciate the constructive comments. I understand and am ok you don't agree with me on certain things I posted but like as it is for you I'm sure, this is my opinion based on my experiences.

To talk about me like you somehow know me and to insinuate Im lying about my past career is ridiculous. I do not think MM is a place to discuss FL law but since you brought it up to try and defame my credibility you prob will want to read the FL statues on 'Sexual Battery'. Yes, there is no such thing in Fl called sexual assault and no, a photographer asking a model to do a nude shoot and then making them feel bad about not doing is not even close to what a sexual battery is, it's just being a douschebag.

Mark Salo wrote:
No, just every photographer that has worked with a model.

Fifty One Imaging wrote:
Except the OP.

I will assume the post was made to steer some new Models in His direction.

He made Paradise Rodriguez feel safe.

Mark Salo wrote:

Ray makes good points.  I would like to add a few comments.

3- How will "profit" be determined?  Apply depreciation, salary for time shooting (probably equal to the model's fee), salary for time retouching, for art sales the cost of the frame and mat, time shopping for the frame, etc?  And will the photographer allow the model to audit his books?

6- OP said, "If you don't have a name (famous) then why would someone pay you to shoot for their portfolio?"

I've paid lots of models who were not famous.  I enjoy creating beauty and art.  I use the images in my portfolio.  Occasionally I exhibit in a gallery.  Does that make me a sleaze?

Thanks for the constructive comments:) But I Never said paying models that aren't famous make you a sleaze lol I do it as well for the same reasons you do it.

Mark Salo wrote:
OP forgot to mention that when checking references, a model should contact the other models that the photographer has credited in his portfolio.

Even though you've been mean hahaha... you're absolutely right! Thats another great idea

Good Egg Productions wrote:
Oh, Orlando....

Will you never stop being amazing for both photographers and models?

OP, have you ever worked in a major market like Chicago, L.A., N.Y. or Miami?  Things are so much easier there.  The business runs like a business. 

Good to know you're in my backyard.  I'll be sure to warn all the models about me since I don't allow escorts.

I feel the negativity and no I've never worked in a major city. Never tried to say I was some hot shot big time photographer. I'm mediocre at best. And I get you're trying to prove some point with the whole warn all the models about you line. I don't know you, never heard of you, why the heck would I say something bad about you? Makes no sense.... BTW you actually have some good photos

Good Egg Productions wrote:
For the record, I've got about 900 model shoots under my belt and about 500 unique people I've worked with.  I might propose that I have a bit more experience in this than you.

Congratulations! But I Never said you didn't.....