Thomas Radley wrote:
Greg, thanks for the great post.

Unfortuantely, I am shy to ask people to shoot with me.  Fortunately, once in my professional environment, the shyness goes away, as I am confident at what I am doing.

Thank you for the compliment too. :-)

You created a great image too.

Not to sound harsh, but stop with the excuses!

Your too shy; your kids won't sit still; nobody is responding to your cards.  You're setting yourself up for failure.

What to you post on Craigs list?  What do you say when you contact models here on MM?  Greg gave some great advice.  You need to see images in your mind.  You need to have confidence in yourself as a photographer that you can create those images.  Then, you go hell bent on getting models excited about the image.

If your just waiting for things to happen, they won't.  You need to bang your head into that brick wall until either your head, or the wall breaks.

NC17 wrote:

There is a difference between putting people down and giving them honest realistic feedback. Frankly, I'd rather have critical honest advice than find someone coddling me along telling me its ok.

True. I don't disagree with you on this. But perhaps there is some space between coddling and slapping.

Serevende Photography wrote:

No no. I read the whole thread and just thought you sounded kind of nasty to a guy that is clearly just beginning. Just sounded too harsh to me. I think the point could have been made in kinder manner. Just my opinion. I'm not looking for trouble!

Nor am I...tone is often very important in a statement, and sadly, that can't be conveyed online, so it's only natural that some things will get misinterpreted. I really wasn't being harsh...I was just offering up an honest opinion of a good solution to his problem. I just wanted to make sure you weren't getting the wrong idea about me.

Tiffanyxox wrote:
well its not really fair to not work for free atleast at first i mean why wouldnt you want to help out a new photographer who knows how good he or she could be eventually and you get new photos for your portfolio it helps both why not lol

And six months from now you could have one of the hottests ports on MM. That's the spirit and I think this kind of thinking is at least in part why MM is as successful as it is. Networking and helping each other out.

Kaitlin Lara wrote:

Nor am I...tone is often very important in a statement, and sadly, that can't be conveyed online, so it's only natural that some things will get misinterpreted. I really wasn't being harsh...I was just offering up an honest opinion of a good solution to his problem. I just wanted to make sure you weren't getting the wrong idea about me.

Cool. I hope we both explained ourselves so there is no hard feelings. I'm good if you are!

-John

Tiffanyxox wrote:
well its not really fair to not work for free atleast at first i mean why wouldnt you want to help out a new photographer who knows how good he or she could be eventually and you get new photos for your portfolio it helps both why not lol

Photographers and models alike shouldn't be working for free when they first start out. Frankly they should both be paying someone GOOD at their craft to get them off the ground. That includes photographers paying experienced models (that come with a good reputation, check references!) AND includes models paying a good photographer (again, check references!!) to get themselves off the ground. This works both ways.

Sure, shooting for free is cool because both people feel little pressure. But how is the model going to feel if the photographer accidentally has a setting off, or the lights too bright, or any number of small issues that can happen when you're fairly new at the game? And how will the photographer feel if the model shows up with no wardrobe, no makeup or hair supplies, and has a blank expression in every shot? When money is not exchanged there is an obligation to provide something for the shoot, usually in the form of images. What happens when the other person doesn't live as well up to their end of the bargain?

The BEST investment is to invest in a model or a photographer when you are new on either side of the fence. It can put you light years ahead of others that are at the same point.

Serevende Photography wrote:

Cool. I hope we both explained ourselves so there is no hard feelings. I'm good if you are!

-John

I'm always good

Tiffanyxox wrote:
well its not really fair to not work for free atleast at first i mean why wouldnt you want to help out a new photographer who knows how good he or she could be eventually and you get new photos for your portfolio it helps both why not lol

There's nothing at all wrong with doing TFP...just make sure you're being picky about who you do it with. If you shoot with anyone, odds are you're just going to end up with crappy photos, which will start an endless cycle of crappy photos. I still do 99% TFP...it's a great tool...but make sure you use it well.

norcal-images wrote:
Move to Calif.

I know you were joking, but what's in Calif? I actually found an easier time working with people when I was back in Maryland. *Wonders if I'm doing something wrong*

To the original poster, just be patient. I actually got my first portrait opportunities when all I had in my portfolio were landscape and nature shots (but they were nice shots). But it certainly helps if you show that you have something to offer that will benefit the model. Another thing to keep in mind, your portfolio will most likely attract the type of subjects in it. Are the people you have in your portfolio the type of people you want to work with most?

Thomas Radley wrote:
I have added two more pics to my port.  If you guys wouldn't mind critiquing them

I see pretty good exposure, flat lighting, very conventional, very mainstream images.  There's not really anything wrong with them.  But they aren't particularly exciting, either.  The good news is that in most cases, there is at least a little emotion conveyed by the subjects.  Even a lot of experienced photographers can't seem to get that.

So:  whatever "should" happen, in the real world experienced models are only going to shoot with  photographers who are 1) already experienced and well known, 2) exceptionally talented, 3) working in a unique style that adds something new to the models book, or 4) willing to pay.

No matter how good you are technically, they can get the same look lots of places.  So for now, shooting TFP, your market is new models or non-models.  Build a solid body of work, then it's time to step up.

Another issue:  somewhere above you define what you'd like to do as "portraits" and "models."  Portraits is a legitimate genre, and it tells me a lot.  Models tells me nothing.  Perhaps defining what you'd like to shoot with models will help.  It does take time to come to the ability to convey a creative vision; until you do, you're just one more photographer shootting for the sake of shooting, with models who... like you... haven't thought through their objectives.  That's 90 percent of the people on here, and it's like the blind leading the blind.

My suggestion:  start with your interest in portraiture, look at the work of some of the famous portrait photographers.  What made them what they are?  Avedon's western series, currently on many bookshelves, speaks volumes about his usually not very "pretty" subjects.  He made them interesting anyway, makes us want to look at the images.  Or pick another photographer, or a bunch of them.  Look again, and again, and shoot with whoever you can talk into it.  Learn to do more than just put a pretty girl in front of the camera.  Learn to see the person.

Serevende Photography wrote:

True. I don't disagree with you on this. But perhaps there is some space between coddling and slapping.

There is plenty space. Though I believe there is a time for the "snap out of it" slap. And sometimes newbies need that. In an industry that is cut throat anyway, there is little room for coddling if you want to move forward with any of your goals.

NC17 wrote:

There is plenty space. Though I believe there is a time for the "snap out of it" slap. And sometimes newbies need that. In an industry that is cut throat anyway, there is little room for coddling if you want to move forward with any of your goals.

You speak like a really experienced, professionally represented model. Someone who has been around the block many times, has done a lot of different types of modeling with established, professional photographers. Someone who really knows the ins and the outs of the industry.

I'll be quick to tell you that I do not. So, there you have it. I'll back away slowly now. You're still in charge! ;-)

Serevende Photography wrote:
You speak like a really experienced, professionally represented model. Someone who has been around the block many times, has done a lot of different types of modeling with established, professional photographers. Someone who really knows the ins and the outs of the industry.

I'll be quick to tell you that I do not. So, there you have it. I'll back away slowly now. You're still in charge! ;-)

Haha! What a delightful complement... I don't believe I've ever recieved that one before.
Thanks. I have definately done my time. The thing is that I treat it like a business and handle it as such. Thats the key. Business is business. I don't take things personally (like photographers not wanting to work with me... theres always another one that will) and I do whatever it takes to get the job done. This is a job for me, even though its not "full time."

I'm sure you'll be wiser some day. Looking back on myself and my journey is interesting because I can see how much I've changed when I didn't even know that I needed to do so.

NC17 wrote:
I am an experienced model now, though far less so than MANY models on this site. Its RARE for me to do TFP shoots. I don't have the time, and I need the money too badly. Does that for some reason mean that I shouldn't be on this site? Because if it does, I guess someone should have clued me in several months ago...

it's probably because you do mostly nude work. no offense to that at all, some of your pictures are really great.
a ton of photographers will pay for people to do nudes.

Thomas Radley wrote:
I really appreciate the comments.

I am stuck in a Catch 22, and cannot seem to break out of it.  I know I need better images on my port, just struglling to get them :-)

The best way to get models is to take pics of friends, family etc.  Once you got some of the "WOW" images, I am sure models will come to you.  It isn't necessary to work with experienced model because if your lights, composition etc aren't that great, your image will look just as bad as one without experience.

Thomas Radley wrote:
I have been reading a lot of posts in the forums about models shooting with photograpers and stating:

New Models should work with Experienced Photographers
Experienced Models should work with New photographers

I have been trying for months to get models, and unfortuantely, I am only offering TFP/CD, because I cannot afford to pay models.  I have spent a fortune on studio equipment to build my studio, and all it is doing is gathering dust.

I read that new photographers should work with experienced models to learn more, however, experienced models don't want to work with inexperienced photographers.

I like to think I am a nice guy and would be fun to work with, but all the models I have communicated with only want to be paid.

Is there no give an take here.

Your thoughts will be greatly appreciated

I don't know where in Maryland you reside, but if you are close to a college, place ads in the Dance and Drama departments.  Consider running an ad in the college newspaper, or an alternative newspaper.  Those sources actually work a lot better than the internet... always have.

Thomas Radley wrote:
Greg, thanks for the great post.

Unfortunately, I am shy to ask people to shoot with me.

Shy?

Stop doing that. Should help.