Cecil Sharps wrote:
what do you want to shoot?

I want to shoot portraits and models.  Unfortunately, I cannot do weddings due to time constraints, and I also shoot nature.

norcal-images wrote:

Move to Calif:-)...No seriously, Its takes time to get the trust and reputation being a legit photog...whether amatuer or self proclaimed pro the models do network...and they check up on photographers. I know first hand. Nothing wrong with the TFP/TFCD to help build each otheres ports.

Move to Calif-- hat's a good one.  Are you kidding me? There are gorgeous people EVERYWHERE.  You just gotta open your imagination and look!

Thomas Radley wrote:
I have been reading a lot of posts in the forums about models shooting with photograpers and stating:

New Models should work with Experienced Photographers
Experienced Models should work with New photographers

I have been trying for months to get models, and unfortuantely, I am only offering TFP/CD, because I cannot afford to pay models.  I have spent a fortune on studio equipment to build my studio, and all it is doing is gathering dust.

I read that new photographers should work with experienced models to learn more, however, experienced models don't want to work with inexperienced photographers.

I like to think I am a nice guy and would be fun to work with, but all the models I have communicated with only want to be paid.

Is there no give an take here.

Your thoughts will be greatly appreciated

No offense but there is nothing in your portfolio that would interest a model to work with you - that is your main problem. Getting that first model with no body of work is really tough. The first model I shot was from Craig's list, perhaps try that. Also, when I first started a couple of years ago, my equipment consisted of nothing expensive, a 4 MP camera and 2 Sunpak 544 flashes, 2 stands and 2 umbrellas but models worked with me not because of the equipment but because of the results (and I wasn't that good back then, just good enough).

Kaitlin Lara wrote:
Just keep emailing people...if you need to, offer a little money as some incentive. $20 an hour could probably lure someone in, and wouldn't put a huge dent in your wallet. Once you get some better shots (and BIGGER shots...I looked at one of your photos and it was way too small for me to even see what you're capable of) you won't have to pay people anymore. You're probably just going to have to invest a little. It'll be worth it.

I could not disagree more. And here is why: a requirement for amazing shoots is that all involved are highly motivated.  Money will usually pan out to be the least of the motivators in our toolchest of motivational factors.  But exciting images-- now there's motivation.  If you can not show the wow shots, then talk about them.  Describe your ideas to the prospective model in such a way that excitement on her part is impossible to miss. 

I say hold out for the model that is excited to shoot with you.  And the sacrafice of her time for you is usually the proof.

Daguerre wrote:
I could not disagree more. And here is why: a requirement for amazing shoots is that all involved are highly motivated.  Money will usually pan out to be the least of the motivators in our toolchest of motivational factors.  But exciting images-- now there's motivation.  If you can not show the wow shots, then talk about them.  Describe your ideas to the prospective model in such a way that excitement on her part is impossible to miss. 

I say hold out for the model that is excited to shoot with you.  And the sacrafice of her time for you is usually the proof.

With shots of that quality, at least for me, you couldn't convince me to shoot with you regardless of what you said. The photos he has up just aren't good enough in my opinion, and I doubt he's going to find someone really excited to shoot with him on a TFP basis. I'm just encouraging him to pay a model to get some decent shots to hopefully lure in models to actually be excited to shoot with him. I'm not saying he's going to get amazing shots...just that they'll be better for attracting models than what he has now.

Kaitlin Lara wrote:

With shots of that quality, at least for me, you couldn't convince me to shoot with you regardless of what you said. The photos he has up just aren't good enough in my opinion, and I doubt he's going to find someone really excited to shoot with him on a TFP basis. I'm just encouraging him to pay a model to get some decent shots to hopefully lure in models to actually be excited to shoot with him.

... and a professional photographer may look at your book and think a very similar thing. It's all about where you are at in a point in time. Somebody must have given you a break at some point. Luckily, there are cool models and cool photographers that are members here and they are willing to help each other out. The support and encouragement often found on MM is really cool. So, dude, don't read something like this and be discouraged by it. There are many people here that have a greater sense of humility and have a kinder perspective than this.

Thomas Radley wrote:
Greg, thanks for the great post.

Unfortuantely, I am shy to ask people to shoot with me.  Fortunately, once in my professional environment, the shyness goes away, as I am confident at what I am doing.

Thank you for the compliment too. :-)

You created a great image too.

It's kinda funny-because the little girl in your avatar LOOKS so shy...The thing models will intuit first, though, is whether or not you have a vision for THEM, specifically...or anyone, in general. Once you have a SPECIFIC idea to carry out, I think it might be easier to find someone to help you fulfill it. The strongest images are the ones you see in your mind, and then just go out and flesh out. G.

Thomas Radley wrote:
Also, I would take pictures of my children, I have two small boys, but they won't even sit still for a split second :-)

How do you think other pros do it? Practicing on something that won't hold still is EXCELLENT practice. It teaches you to move fast and adjust on the fly. Take the kiddos to the park and shoot them while they play. Get out and practice in any way that you can. My boyfriend, also an aspiring photographer goes with me whenever I go work with the horses. Try shooting a horse some time. You think kids are challenging!

Serevende Photography wrote:
... and a professional photographer may look at your book and think a very similar thing. It's all about where you are at in a point in time. Somebody must have given you a break at some point. Luckily, there are cool models and cool photographers that are members here and they are willing to help each other out. The support and encouragement often found on MM is really cool. So, dude, don't read something like this and be discouraged by it. There are many people here that have a greater sense of humility and have a kinder perspective than this.

Kaitlin's advice isn't meant to be discouraging. Infact, I believe its meant to encourage.

How hard would it be to save up for a few weeks (or months if it takes that long) to hire a model that has experience so that you can get some good solid quality model shots in your port? Why is it acceptable for photographers to spend thousdands on studio equipment and then complain when they won't make the investment for the primary subject of their images! That makes NO sense to me. In this industry, the model is the subject of your images. And you lament because you spent all your money on equipment that is now gathering dust because you can't afford to pay the model to come in and sit for you? Come on! The model is part of your investment! In addition to that, when you pay a model you aren't obligated to give her any of the images. Payment is monetary at that point. It benefits you because you are hiring the model to expand your talents and there is NOTHING to worry about post shoot. No images to return to the model in time, no expectations for you to live up to to provide a certain quality of images for her, no nothing.

Its not about giving anybody else a "break..." Its about giving yourself a boost on your own. Expecting others to give you a break is foolish and will lead you to disappointment. If you get out there and work hard, someone will see that and give you a break because you deserve it. Not because you moaned that you weren't getting what you wanted.

The two new images in your port look good. They're a good start. I think you can do better, and will continue to get better. I've left you a comment about them, and am going to send you a note as well.

Serevende Photography wrote:
... and a professional photographer may look at your book and think a very similar thing. It's all about where you are at in a point in time. Somebody must have given you a break at some point. Luckily, there are cool models and cool photographers that are members here and they are willing to help each other out. The support and encouragement often found on MM is really cool. So, dude, don't read something like this and be discouraged by it. There are many people here that have a greater sense of humility and have a kinder perspective than this.

Whoa whoa...I wasn't trying to be a cocky jerk, I'm telling him it like I see it. I'm not saying I'm a good model...that's not my judgment to make, and I'm not saying he's a bad photographer either, I'm just telling him that he probably doesn't have enough right now to attract models on a TFP basis at this time (by the way, I said that BEFORE he posted some of the shots he has up...what he had up before were a few really really small pictures that gave no clue as to what he was capable of). I dislike you assuming that I'm an unkind and have no humility just because I told him what at the time (my opinion has changed now that he has some better shots up) I perceived to be the truth. That was very presumptuous of you. By the way, every once in a while, I DO shoot with a beginner with very little work to help them out because I was given many breaks, and still am...so your assumptions about me are incorrect.

Thomas Radley wrote:
but all the models I have communicated with only want to be paid.

I find it very odd that models who insist on getting paid for their work, have an account on MM. If you're doing that well for yourself then I really don't think you need to promote yourself here.

I guess it doesn't hurt to get yourself out there, but still.

By the way, I love the shoots of the babies you have. They are really adorable.

Kaitlin Lara wrote:

Whoa whoa...I wasn't trying to be a cocky jerk, I'm telling him it like I see it. I'm not saying I'm a good model...that's not my judgment to make, and I'm not saying he's a bad photographer either, I'm just telling him that he probably doesn't have enough right now to attract models on a TFP basis at this time (by the way, I said that BEFORE he posted some of the shots he has up...what he had up before were a few really really small pictures that gave no clue as to what he was capable of). I dislike you assuming that I'm an unkind and have no humility just because I told him what at the time (my opinion has changed now that he has some better shots up) I perceived to be the truth. That was very presumptuous of you. By the way, every once in a while, I DO shoot with a beginner with very little work to help them out...so your assumptions about me are incorrect.

Sorry Kaitlin if I sounded too harsh but that post did sound like a downer to me. I had people tell me not to bother when they saw my early work (maybe they'd say the same now) and I remember how discouraging it was for me. So, if you didn't intend it that way, sorry if I slammed you for something you didn't intend. It does come off kind of pissy when I read it.

I still consider myself an amatuer and a hack. But my work has come a long way since I started and if I would have listened to people putting me down a year ago I wouldn't be enjoying what I am now.

Thomas Radley wrote:
I am trying everything I can think of.  Unfortunately, I am new to the area I now live in and don’t know many people.   I have business cards out all over, tried craigslist. 

I completely understand that people want to see work that you have done.  But I am stuck in a Catch 22 :-(

I'd suggest training. your work is really bland. Borderline awful. What do you have to offer a model other than money? Spend money, get training. Then spend money and get experienced models. THEN you can TFP to build from there. Like Daguerre said...build some "wow" into your work.

Rebecca Lynne wrote:
I find it very odd that models who insist on getting paid for their work, have an account on MM. If you're doing that well for yourself then I really don't think you need to promote yourself here.

I guess it doesn't hurt to get yourself out there, but still.

Why is it odd to be on MM and insist on getting paid? Obviously the models either, 1, don't feel that what the OP has to offer is worth their time in prints/CD or 2, the models are brand new and have been told that asking to get paid is how this works.

I am an experienced model now, though far less so than MANY models on this site. Its RARE for me to do TFP shoots. I don't have the time, and I need the money too badly. Does that for some reason mean that I shouldn't be on this site? Because if it does, I guess someone should have clued me in several months ago...

Serevende Photography wrote:
Sorry Kaitlin if I sounded too harsh but that post did sound like a downer to me. I had people tell me not to bother when they saw my early work (maybe they'd say the same now) and I remember how discouraging it was for me. So, if you didn't intend it that way, sorry if I slammed you for something you didn't intend. It does come off kind of pissy when I read it.

I still consider myself an amatuer and a hack. But my work has come a long way since I started and if I would have listened to people putting me down a year ago I wouldn't be enjoying what I am now.

It wasn't meant that way at all. I'm guessing you didn't read my original post to him...I just said he should try offering models like $20 so that he can get some good shots of models so that he'll be able to attract TFP. Someone replied that they disagreed, and I was defending my opinion about him considering paying models. I would totally never tell someone to give up, or encourage them to stop trying, or even try to make them feel worse about what they're doing...I just didn't think what he had at that time would attract any models worth shooting. I wasn't putting his work down...it actually looks a lot better than a lot of stuff on here...but what he had at first was too small for anyone to really see the quality.

Tiffanyxox wrote:
well i would work with a new photographer for free but im a new model lol

DING DING DING!!! That's what *I* am talking about. Cheers to MM.

Serevende Photography wrote:
I still consider myself an amatuer and a hack. But my work has come a long way since I started and if I would have listened to people putting me down a year ago I wouldn't be enjoying what I am now.

There is a difference between putting people down and giving them honest realistic feedback. Frankly, I'd rather have critical honest advice than find someone coddling me along telling me its ok.

Kaitlin Lara wrote:

It wasn't meant that way at all. I'm guessing you didn't read my original post to him...I just said he should try offering models like $20 so that he can get some good shots of models so that he'll be able to attract TFP. Someone replied that they disagreed, and I was defending my opinion about him considering paying models. I would totally never tell someone to give up, or encourage them to stop trying, or even try to make them feel worse about what they're doing...I just didn't think what he had at that time would attract any models worth shooting. I wasn't putting his work down...it actually looks a lot better than a lot of stuff on here...but what he had at first was too small for anyone to really see the quality.

No no. I read the whole thread and just thought you sounded kind of nasty to a guy that is clearly just beginning. Just sounded too harsh to me. I think the point could have been made in kinder manner. Just my opinion. I'm not looking for trouble!

GregBrown wrote:
here...

I hope that encourages you, and gives you a new more successful approach.  Greg

This is the type of photographers that interest me. Someone who has a concept and makes effort for that concept. Try to captivate the model you are trying to tfp/tfcd with during the email exchanging.