Photographer
Audrey Rinehart
Posts: 60
New York, New York, US
I was a traveling art model long before I was a photographer. I've modeled for a lot of people whose names I still see pop up on the forums here. I was also an MM forum guide for several years, and so active as a model in this community that most of my best friends still are people I originally met through MM in the early 00s. 2019 was the very last year that I modeled professionally or toured, for a couple reasons.
(1) Covid hit during a period of time when I was taking a break and staying put in one place. Covid knocked the legs out from under the cottage industry that fed and housed pro touring models. I knew it would take years to recover, and I didn't want to waste time waiting.
(2) I kept mostly the same rates for a decade, meaning I priced shoots between $50 and $75/hour up through 2019. By then, I was mostly doing glamour and fine art nudes for $75/hr with a 2 hour minimum. The issue was that cost of touring had skyrocketed. Gas cost more. Food cost more. A hotel room to crash in when I couldn't find a photographer with a spare room or open couch, had skyrocketed.
Yet, I felt guilted into continuing to try to work for about $150-250 per shoot. The math would no longer math. By the end of 2019, I was working just to keep working, but the cost of living had gone up so much that unless I was willing to charge $100+/ hour, I simply wouldn't be able to make it anymore.
I'd posed professionally for over a decade, had publications, work in galleries and shows around the world at that point, and just decided it was time to be done with it.
In most parts of the US, there is not enough work for art/nude models to survive without touring. It's a niche economy, and I've observed that a lot of people simply do not understand the cost of touring. I'm a professional photographer now. I work in fashion and beauty. Yes, I have equipment costs, business costs, etc. but when I buy a piece of gear, it lasts years and I buy it used typically. My costs of running a studio over the years have been overall cheaper than the overhead of working as a traveling model, and the potential for revenue as a photographer is much higher over the long term, than it ever was as a model. At this point, I have access to an almost endless supply of wonderful models through agencies, for testing, etc. --- but as someone who did spend a LOT of my younger years working as a professional model, I will never blame someone for increasing their rates, or charging high costs. I was unwilling to price my work higher pre-Covid, and that was probably a mistake on my part. I probably ripped myself off a lot and didn't realize it. Hindsight is 20/20, I suppose
Photographer
Frederick C
Posts: 143
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Photographer
Frederick C
Posts: 143
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Model MoRina wrote:
If you run yourself ragged chasing pennies, the dollars are going to someone else.
. $150 - $250 is not pennies !!!!!
I now avoid travelling models, unless they accomodate my budget. Local talent is my goal, but they are restrictive.
Photographer
Camera Buff
Posts: 1107
Maryborough, Queensland, Australia
Frederick C, Let's forget our past careers as today you and I are simply just another couple of the many other amateur photographers. Performing a role at which we most likely are less qualified than the professional models being talked down to by photographers who make out they know more about the costs involved on the models side of the business than the models themselves.
Many independent models have likely spent more time working at their craft as paid professionals and therefore have a much clearer understanding of their side of the business than amateur photographers like you and I.
It’s about time models were shown RESPECT and photographers stopped speaking down to them as if models don’t understand the possible consequences of raising their rates.
It’s totally fine for a photographer to decide if they want to ignore models who won't accept their rates and/or conditions.
I am confident models know how much they need to earn to be able to cut even and if what's on offer isn't enough then there’s certainly no shame in their ignoring a photographer's low ball offer.
Model
Model MoRina
Posts: 6749
MacMurdo - permanent station of the US, Sector claimed by New Zealand, Antarctica
Camera Buff wrote:
Frederick C, Let's forget our past careers as today you and I are simply just another couple of the many other amateur photographers. Performing a role at which we most likely are less qualified than the professional models being talked down to by photographers who make out they know more about the costs involved on the models side of the business than the models themselves.
Many independent models have likely spent more time working at their craft as paid professionals and therefore have a much clearer understanding of their side of the business than amateur photographers like you and I.
It’s about time models were shown RESPECT and photographers stopped speaking down to them as if models don’t understand the possible consequences of raising their rates.
It’s totally fine for a photographer to decide if they want to ignore models who won't accept their rates and/or conditions.
I am confident models know how much they need to earn to be able to cut even and if what's on offer isn't enough then there’s certainly no shame in their ignoring a photographer's low ball offer. Love this!
People who have never been self-employed don't really understand the mechanics of pricing rates. Maybe a hobbyist model isn't reporting her modeling income on her taxes, but professional models do (or should.) Anyone who posts their own content gets a 1099 at the end of the year. If you don't report income on your taxes, you won't be able to get a car loan or a house loan or even rent anywhere because you can't prove income. And when you are self-employed, taxes are higher than when you are working for someone else. We don't get paid holidays and sick time or health insurance. We have to pay our own payroll taxes and self-employment tax too.
If you are an employee making $75k per year, your employer is paying about $100 - $110k per year (even higher for those in unions with cadillac benefit plans,) when you figure in payroll taxes, paid time off value, health insurance, maybe a retirement plan match or pension, workers comp, etc. So that person making $36 costs the employer around $50 per hour, and none of that includes overhead expenses, like HR, admin, office space, phones, equipment, marketing, accounting, employee business expenses and travel.
A model who prices herself too low simply cannot afford to sustain a modeling career.
Photographer
Audrey Rinehart
Posts: 60
New York, New York, US
Camera Buff wrote:
Frederick C, Let's forget our past careers as today you and I are simply just another couple of the many other amateur photographers. Performing a role at which we most likely are less qualified than the professional models being talked down to by photographers who make out they know more about the costs involved on the models side of the business than the models themselves.
Many independent models have likely spent more time working at their craft as paid professionals and therefore have a much clearer understanding of their side of the business than amateur photographers like you and I.
It’s about time models were shown RESPECT and photographers stopped speaking down to them as if models don’t understand the possible consequences of raising their rates.
It’s totally fine for a photographer to decide if they want to ignore models who won't accept their rates and/or conditions.
I am confident models know how much they need to earn to be able to cut even and if what's on offer isn't enough then there’s certainly no shame in their ignoring a photographer's low ball offer. Model Mayhem, as a networking resource, was once integral to the freelance professional modeling and arts photography experience in the US. Today, it has fallen to being virtually nothing. It is worth keeping for some of us, only for the nostalgia and not much else. Models who do still use it do not contribute to the general milieu, which has perpetuated the complete and utter destruction of MM as a connected, viable and positive community. Part of the reason for models evacuating the site has been the disrespect shown towards models by the photographers here. Photographers have an unsavory history of speaking for models, speaking over them and generally pretending to be experts on a side of the industry that most have never experienced personally. As someone who toured as an arts and figure model for more than a decade, and built a life on both sides of the camera, I will say that "photographer-splaining" is an actual problem. It is also, especially on MM, a behavior heavily laden with sexism. I never realized how inaccurate and incorrect most of the photographer-splaining I saw was until I actually became a photographer, with a studio full of gear and all the accoutrements. From there, I was able to critically examine the malarkey that photographers used to say to and about models, in order to manipulate a market to favor their own interests, while disenfranchising the young(er) and often rather naive population of people who wanted to model. Much of it, I believed when I was younger, and that did me a serious disservice as a self-employed pro model some years ago
Photographer
JQuest
Posts: 2562
Syracuse, New York, US
Audrey Rinehart wrote:
Model Mayhem, as a networking resource, was once integral to the freelance professional modeling and arts photography experience in the US. Today, it has fallen to being virtually nothing. It is worth keeping for some of us, only for the nostalgia and not much else. Models who do still use it do not contribute to the general milieu, which has perpetuated the complete and utter destruction of MM as a connected, viable and positive community. Part of the reason for models evacuating the site has been the disrespect shown towards models by the photographers here. Photographers have an unsavory history of speaking for models, speaking over them and generally pretending to be experts on a side of the industry that most have never experienced personally. As someone who toured as an arts and figure model for more than a decade, and built a life on both sides of the camera, I will say that "photographer-splaining" is an actual problem. It is also, especially on MM, a behavior heavily laden with sexism. I never realized how inaccurate and incorrect most of the photographer-splaining I saw was until I actually became a photographer, with a studio full of gear and all the accoutrements. From there, I was able to critically examine the malarkey that photographers used to say to and about models, in order to manipulate a market to favor their own interests, while disenfranchising the young(er) and often rather naive population of people who wanted to model. Much of it, I believed when I was younger, and that did me a serious disservice as a self-employed pro model some years ago Damn I miss hanging with you, and just chatting about this stuff!
Photographer
Aberotica
Posts: 504
Aberdeen, Scotland, United Kingdom
Models don't need us any more, it's as simple as that. They have their iPhones, they have their ring light, and Only Fans, etc.. They do it themselves. We're dinasaurs, the quality may be shit, but most of them are visually illiterate and they don't know the difference and don't care anyway.
However, the way things are going with AI, models won't be required either in a few years time.
Photographer
Camera Buff
Posts: 1107
Maryborough, Queensland, Australia
Aberotica wrote:
Models don't need us any more, it's as simple as that. They have their iPhones, they have their ring light, and Only Fans, etc.. They do it themselves. We're dinasaurs, the quality may be shit, but most of them are visually illiterate and they don't know the difference and don't care anyway.
However, the way things are going with AI, models won't be required either in a few years time. I think you are overstating your point of view in claiming "Models don't need us anymore."
And I don’t go along with your misogynistic view of blaming iPhone wielding female model/photographers who are doing it for themselves as being the simple reason for the decline in availability of models.
I'd suggest professional female models do need us. The opportunity to model for ‘artsy' hobbyist photographers would likely be part of their 'bread and butter' work and be an integral part of supplementing their income and earning a sustainable livelihood.
Those young iPhone wielding female model photographers I have worked with have not come across as being visually illiterate and certainly not shown a difficulty in being able differentiate between the alleged "shit" quality of their iPhone pictures to the self-appraised quality of pictures taken by DSLR/Mirrorless wielding hobbyists.
The fact is many people these days actually prefer the images straight out of their iPhones over the unedited files from pro cameras.
It’s true that some older gentlemen believe that their camera kit is the key element in creating quality "artsy” photos.
However photographers often overlook the fact that quality can sometimes take a backseat to the other benefits (apart from money) that can go along with using iPhones to create their own style of “artsy” photographs.
Simply being able to do it on their own especially on special occasions when they are all dressed up, they can use their iPhone to take a few selfies to send to friends seeking honest opinions about how they look before going out.
And should they decide to pose half/fully naked for "artsy” style photos, yes they can do it themselves in the comfort and security of their own homes. Eliminating the discomfort associated with entering a stranger's house, where they will be expected to strip down to some pre-agreed level of nudity in front of a hopefully gentleman photographer who sometimes may be old enough to be their grand father. And then there's no need to sign legal documents such as model release/usage rights. And possibly most importantly they retain copyright and control over their own pictures, rather than to a complete stranger.
And in some cases all they might receive in return is a set of web-sized, copyrighted, watermarked copies of images which they may, or may not, be allowed to edit and/or otherwise use as they wish.
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21554
Chicago, Illinois, US
Interesting read. I think models have a right to earn a decent income but thinking or expecting photographers to pay hundreds of dollars and hour for work most will never be able to make anything from isn't wise. Several years ago a former MM model got a free trip to Paris where she did art nudes in exchange for her flight. Two glamour models used to organize nude Playboy styled shoots at their lofts. They even had studio flash. In other words think outside the box. Look, if you're booking consistent work for $200 per hour what I'm saying will mean nothing to you. However if you aren't working much then maybe its time to reconsider what you charge.
Photographer
Lucifers_Corner
Posts: 77
Decatur, Georgia, US
It's just easier to get a flat rate. It saves a lot of discussion.
Photographer
Chris Macan
Posts: 13197
HAVERTOWN, Pennsylvania, US
Lucifers_Corner wrote:
It's just easier to get a flat rate. It saves a lot of discussion. This is the way!
Clearly define what you are shooting, where you are shooting, and the planned time required....
and agree on the total payment to be given.
(and then finish shooting in less time than agreed)
Photographer
Lucifers_Corner
Posts: 77
Decatur, Georgia, US
Chris Macan wrote:
This is the way!
Clearly define what you are shooting, where you are shooting, and the planned time required....
and agree on the total payment to be given.
(and then finish shooting in less time than agreed) That's exactly what helps me now. I don't want to hear the "per hour" thingy. Here's my concept, how much? Or, this is what I'm paying for XYZ, which is best done for casting calls. Saving me time and money doesn't hurt my fee-fees.
Some people take this stuff personally when it's supposed to be a business, not a date. I've had models say no to one concept and yes to another, with the proper payment. If you like a particular model, find something within her price range and your pockets that you can work on together.
Model
CalebSampercy
Posts: 6
Abuja, Abuja Federal Capital Territory, Nigeria
this is a fair question i would love to hear what your suggestion is on a price range you think we should take. that might help a little. so we could see how to move forward
Model
CalebSampercy
Posts: 6
Abuja, Abuja Federal Capital Territory, Nigeria
Robert Stites wrote:
It's a trend that I think I'm seeing that many models are pricing themselves out of the market. I recognize that there is value for the effort and preparation for modeling, it's that many models are charging more than I can justify spending.
The question is:
How much of the hourly rate models want is based on ego verses the actual cost of preparing to model and a "reasonable" profit?
For me at least, most models on MM have made their hourly rate so high I can no longer afford to hire them. Granted, I shoot for the fun of it and not as a way to derive income. I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts on this. what do you suggest the range should be so it could be fair for both parties
Photographer
Lucifers_Corner
Posts: 77
Decatur, Georgia, US
CalebSampercy wrote:
this is a fair question i would love to hear what your suggestion is on a price range you think we should take. that might help a little. so we could see how to move forward $200–$600 per IG deliverable, and $300–$800 per modeling day rate. That sounds fair to you?
Photographer
JQuest
Posts: 2562
Syracuse, New York, US
IG Deliverable? Are you referring to use for your IG or the models?
Photographer
Lucifers_Corner
Posts: 77
Decatur, Georgia, US
JQuest wrote:
IG Deliverable? Are you referring to use for your IG or the models? There are companies out here that hire IG influencers/models for promotion. There are whole websites like this one, though more modern, where they're listed with their rates for promo work.
Photographer
Audrey Rinehart
Posts: 60
New York, New York, US
JQuest wrote:
Damn I miss hanging with you, and just chatting about this stuff! I miss being around more experienced industry pros. I'm only 43 and pretty much always the oldest person in any team I work with in NY. Sometimes the wardrobe people and stylists are my age or a bit older, but being the "oldster" in the room when I'm just entering middle age is disconcerting. Not so much because it acts as a mirror for examining my literal age, but because working in couture is so vastly different from the 20 years I spent working almost exclusively with nude forms. In many ways, I still feel like a student in the "industry" --- the mainstream sense of the word. The capital "I" industry, so to speak. I took it for granted that there would always be people around me who could help with technical challenges and whatnot
Photographer
Camera Buff
Posts: 1107
Maryborough, Queensland, Australia
Audrey Rinehart wrote:
I miss being around more experienced industry pros. I'm only 43 and pretty much always the oldest person in any team I work with in NY. Sometimes the wardrobe people and stylists are my age or a bit older, but being the "oldster" in the room when I'm just entering middle age is disconcerting. Not so much because it acts as a mirror for examining my literal age, but because working in couture is so vastly different from the 20 years I spent working almost exclusively with nude forms. In many ways, I still feel like a student in the "industry" --- the mainstream sense of the word. The capital "I" industry, so to speak. I took it for granted that there would always be people around me who could help with technical challenges and whatnot Your posts are always interesting reads. This one is particularly thought provoking. Though our ages are significantly different and our career paths have been totally opposite adventures. It is refreshing to read a perspective about what changes have happened to influence you in the past and what’s currently on your mind and looking forward in readiness for what your future may hold in store.
Artist/Painter
Two Pears Studio
Posts: 3636
Wilmington, Delaware, US
Commercial value, perceived value, real value…
For me I am disappointed when I can’t afford to hire someone. If the model wants more than I have budgeted for, then so be it. I can’t be mad… I am not paying their bills and have no right to have an opinion about their business practices.
Regardless of how wonderful I think our collaboration might be, I am not privy to how they chose their prices.
If the model has something unique enough that I need for my work, I will just have to find more or budget more… Just as I might spend $400 for a tube of paint so I have the best color, I might have to spend more for a specific characteristic or aesthetic. It means I have to be more specific about what I want… more discerning.
I used to try and explain my reality, or opinion, but now I just move on.
I know that I don’t justify the prices for my work to those who ask… because they either see the value and can afford it or not.
If I over charge and no one buys my work, it is on me… either I provide the value or not? Same goes for models. They either can justify the rates, or no one hires them.
Photographer
Modelphilia
Posts: 1134
Hilo, Hawaii, US
I have never paid a model out of my own pocket, period. Everything has been TF! –from the very beginning– back when I was doing strictly high-fashion-on-film in the '80's, and the agencies would send me their new models, or those more experienced who needed to refresh their portfolios.
I haven't posted any work here for years though, have never put most of my best work online, and refuse to join FB and IG. First, it was the Ukranian poster-makers stealing our work, now it's AI. No thanks!
Troglodytes unite!
Being a traveling-model can be a very glamorous and remunerative profession for the most talented fine-art and fashion models, who often get to travel the world constantly, and to so many exotic and interesting places! I don't begrudge them the first $150/hr that they charge. More power to them if they can regularly get that much or even more! They've earned it honestly with their skills, hard work, determination and intrepidity.
However, those who are primarily doing erotic-modeling seem to stay in the U.S., from what I've seen here anyway. They have no need, and perhaps not so much desire to travel internationally anyway, and certainly there is plenty of their kind of work available domestically! The least-talented erotic-models seem to find the very worst photographers, and so can still stay busy at that level. The best and most attractive among them though can work internationally –if they have that vision and desire. In either case though, they can often stay pretty busy, and so charge whatever the market will bear. Certainly travel can be very, very expensive!
What is really annoying though is to see very inexperienced and untalented models trying to claim the same sort of high rates as the best models in any genre. They may get some work, but would likely be hard-pressed to put together much of a tour.
Thoughts from on-high! Read them and weep! ; < ( )
Photographer
Camera Buff
Posts: 1107
Maryborough, Queensland, Australia
Modelphilia wrote:
I have never paid a model out of my own pocket, period. Everything has been TF! –from the very beginning– back when I was doing strictly high-fashion-on-film in the '80's, and the agencies would send me their new models, or those more experienced who needed to refresh their portfolios.
I haven't posted any work here for years though, have never put most of my best work online, and refuse to join FB and IG. First, it was the Ukranian poster-makers stealing our work, now it's AI. No thanks!
Troglodytes unite!
Thoughts from on-high! Read them and weep! ; < ( ) I also do and have done TFP collaborations. After every shoot as part of my TFP process each model reviews copies of all the images taken, from which they are free to pick out what they consider to be our best work, as remuneration for their time spent modelling.
They are then free to use their chosen pictures to promote themselves however and wherever they see fit. This may or may not include on a variety of social media sites, such as Facebook, Instagram, etc. I do not police a models promotional use of images they have earned. They are also welcome to download and use any images I happen to post of them on MM.
Please tell me how to go about stopping poachers and/or Ai from stealing TFP images from a model's portfolio. Do you not show or withhold sharing what you consider to be your best work from TF models?
Troglodytes unite!
Knowing who/what troglodytes are, I find this an odd comment to make in bold text. Who is it in reference to?
Photographer
Modelphilia
Posts: 1134
Hilo, Hawaii, US
I sort through and throw out all obviously poor or substandard images, poses, expressions, etc., and will process the rest to varying degrees before coming up with the best images overall. From the survivors of those cullings and edits, I will choose a group of 5-15 of the best ones, make the final edits, and give the model a limited-copyright-release permitting only their self-promotional or personal uses, and disallowing any further modifications or image sales by the model without my further written permission. If we have shot multiple set-ups, or have shot for multiple days, then the number of fully-edited images provided will correspondingly increase. All public postings are required to be credited to me, and most will bear my copyright in some way that is not too obtrusive.
I am well aware that, once they are posted, they are gone for the most part, though I do perform occasional image-searches on some of them, and take the time to issue a takedown-notice to whomever has absconded with them. I am also interested in beginning to use some of the free anti-AI software from the University of Chicago which gradually and invisibly destroys the image's usefulness for AI access. (I can't quite remember it's name right now, and am too tired and lazy to look it up at the moment.)
Generally speaking there are almost always enough good images in my shoots that there are plenty for both of us without me giving the models access to all of them. There are usually multiple images within any given series that are more or less equally good and there are enough for both of us without giving them everything.
As for why Troglodytes unite!, it was a mild bit of self-deprecatory humor, poking fun at my own "outdated" and caveman-like views of social media, in line with this definition of the term: "A person considered to be reclusive, reactionary, out of date, or brutish."
Photographer
Camera Buff
Posts: 1107
Maryborough, Queensland, Australia
Photographer
Modelphilia
Posts: 1134
Hilo, Hawaii, US
It was posted in error, before I had been able to change it. Please refer to the corrected version above. I am super-exhausted after a busy three days and nights, and likely should not be on here at all at the moment
Photographer
Tranchant Photo
Posts: 33
Norcross, Georgia, US
Model MoRina wrote:
Love this!
People who have never been self-employed don't really understand the mechanics of pricing rates. Maybe a hobbyist model isn't reporting her modeling income on her taxes, but professional models do (or should.) Anyone who posts their own content gets a 1099 at the end of the year. If you don't report income on your taxes, you won't be able to get a car loan or a house loan or even rent anywhere because you can't prove income. And when you are self-employed, taxes are higher than when you are working for someone else. We don't get paid holidays and sick time or health insurance. We have to pay our own payroll taxes and self-employment tax too.
If you are an employee making $75k per year, your employer is paying about $100 - $110k per year (even higher for those in unions with cadillac benefit plans,) when you figure in payroll taxes, paid time off value, health insurance, maybe a retirement plan match or pension, workers comp, etc. So that person making $36 costs the employer around $50 per hour, and none of that includes overhead expenses, like HR, admin, office space, phones, equipment, marketing, accounting, employee business expenses and travel.
A model who prices herself too low simply cannot afford to sustain a modeling career. THANKS FOR BEING THE ONLY MODEL WILLING TO ENGAGE, DEBATE, AND EDUCATE!!!
OOPS!!! JUST SAW CALEB!!!
Photographer
rxz
Posts: 1287
Glen Ellyn, Illinois, US
This morning West Texas crude rose to $110/barrel on the spot market. Hopefully it doesn't stay there since it would have an impact for traveling models already with current plans.
Photographer
Super Dimension Foto
Posts: 134
Portland, Oregon, US
rxz wrote:
This morning West Texas crude rose to $110/barrel on the spot market. Hopefully it doesn't stay there since it would have an impact for traveling models already with current plans. I'm pretty sure it will.
During these last 6 years everyone has been hit by 3 significant economic events. Covid fees, Tariffs and now Oil. Each one raises the costs up for everything. Models and photographers are both paying more for loaf of bread. For traveling models, they are charged extra for buying a loaf of bread on the road. It is understandable that a model would raise their rates to keep up with their new costs. You know who also raised their rates? Location rentals.
Most photographers have real jobs on the side. Their wage increases during this time have not gone up at rate to match these events. Costs for photoshoots has gone up but budgets have remained the same. The doctors and lawyers photographers among us can afford to expand their budget. Rest of us aren’t doctors and lawyers.
In addition, the major social media platforms have decided to be less friendly to model photography. Nobody is seeing your work on Instagram anymore. Sure, there are other sites but most users on those sites are just other photographers. Attention from your peers is nice but if you want to reach potential paying clients you must have a presence on the major platforms. Who seem to be doing everything in their power to demote still photography. Should you be fortunate enough to be seen it will be by fewer paying clients. They too are feeling the pinch or decided they can save money with AI.
We have market of photographers whose budgets have frozen and work that isn’t being seen. It is a market that isn’t big enough to sustain all the models at their asking rates. The cost of Oil is really going to screw all of us over as it continues to rise with no end in sight. With some reports mentioning going up to $7 by June. Traveling models will have to change where the tour. Maybe they tour even less. There will always be people doing model photography but there are fewer in number trying to be more cost effective with their budgets.
Photographer
rxz
Posts: 1287
Glen Ellyn, Illinois, US
I'm fortunate to be the beneficiary of an ancestor who invested in oil exploration in NW U.S. more than 75 years ago. Inherited annual income I receive exceeds what I pay in gas and all related expenses due to higher cost of oil for over 30 years. I feel for the 100s of millions of Americans who are not as fortunate. While I appreciate the income, I totally support efforts reduce costs and bring down the dependence on oil with alternate energy sources. My local electric company gets 54% of it's power from nuclear and 9% green.
Making life for everyone including models and photographers better would be great,
Photographer
Dan Howell
Posts: 3671
Kerhonkson, New York, US
Robert Stites wrote:
It's a trend that I think I'm seeing that many models are pricing themselves out of the market. Isn't that their option and decision to make? Why is it a concern of yours? Seems like you are either complaining that you can't afford to shoot the models you want OR that you are trying to white knight them into lower rates on the idea that they would get more shoots to offset it.
I personally don't intimately know the finances of any model out there, so I wouldn't ever presume to give rate advice unless specifically asked and provided with hard data about their bookings and inquiries. Furthermore, one model's decision may or may not haver any impact on the rates that another model sets for themselves.
Model
Liv Sage
Posts: 467
Seattle, Washington, US
Frederick C wrote:
$150 - $250 is not pennies !!!!!
I now avoid travelling models, unless they accomodate my budget. Local talent is my goal, but they are restrictive. This is a real conundrum.
"The models who will do what I want, won't do it for the price I'm willing to pay. The models who will work for the price I am willing to pay, have a bunch of restrictions on what they'll do for that pay."
Well...hmmmm
Anyway, I'm going to keep charging $150/hr. I have seen zero arguments here that would convince me to do otherwise, and a whole lot of reasons to potentially charge more.
I think some photographers don't understand that, at the rates they wish they were paying, it would make more sense for freelance models to get a job working at Starbucks. We'd have no travel expenses, health insurance, a 40 hour per week job, the chance for career advancement into a management role, and it would be way easier to do taxes. Why would I ever pay for and board a flight for the chance to make $50/hr in a city across the country? All so I can't pay rent at the end of the month?
Thankfully, it seems that photographers who hire regularly aren't haggling rates in real life. This endless arguing over rates is something I mainly see on this website.
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21554
Chicago, Illinois, US
I get it, models like all of us have bills and deserve to be paid a fair amount for their time and efforts. Key is what will the market bear. Photographers on sites like this are their usual clients and a smart thing to do in any business is to listen to your customers. If you are a popular model who books $150 or more per hour and are very busy then these debates mean nothing to you. However, I suspect many aren't and the idea in my opinion is to stay busy. If your last session was weeks or months ago maybe consider adjusting your rates. I've read where models trade shoots for a place to stay when they travel. That's smart. There used to be two models who rented their loft out and worked as nude models. They even provided studio lights.
Models of all types should have an updated book with images no more then a few months old at most. This is why agency models test all the time and those shoots are usually trade. Again this will mean nothing to in demand models who book lots of paid work but if that's not you and you want to work listen to your customers.
Model
Model Sarah
Posts: 41069
Columbus, Ohio, US
Liv Sage wrote:
This is a real conundrum.
"The models who will do what I want, won't do it for the price I'm willing to pay. The models who will work for the price I am willing to pay, have a bunch of restrictions on what they'll do for that pay."
Well...hmmmm
Anyway, I'm going to keep charging $150/hr. I have seen zero arguments here that would convince me to do otherwise, and a whole lot of reasons to potentially charge more.
I think some photographers don't understand that, at the rates they wish they were paying, it would make more sense for freelance models to get a job working at Starbucks. We'd have no travel expenses, health insurance, a 40 hour per week job, the chance for career advancement into a management role, and it would be way easier to do taxes. Why would I ever pay for and board a flight for the chance to make $50/hr in a city across the country? All so I can't pay rent at the end of the month?
Thankfully, it seems that photographers who hire regularly aren't haggling rates in real life. This endless arguing over rates is something I mainly see on this website. Yes, all this. I think a lot of the problem is photographers think that we are booking shoots and modeling 40 hours a week. No, we are not. This is not a 9-5 job. I rarely have problems with haggling. It is usually the guys that do not realize they picked an expensive hobby. They'll justify thousands of dollars in equipment but oh no! Hire a model for $150/hr?!!! 
I am so freaking glad I am out of this business.
Model
Model Sarah
Posts: 41069
Columbus, Ohio, US
Tony Lawrence wrote:
I get it, models like all of us have bills and deserve to be paid a fair amount for their time and efforts. Key is what will the market bear. Photographers on sites like this are their usual clients and a smart thing to do in any business is to listen to your customers. If you are a popular model who books $150 or more per hour and are very busy then these debates mean nothing to you. However, I suspect many aren't and the idea in my opinion is to stay busy. If your last session was weeks or months ago maybe consider adjusting your rates. I've read where models trade shoots for a place to stay when they travel. That's smart. There used to be two models who rented their loft out and worked as nude models. They even provided studio lights.
Models of all types should have an updated book with images no more then a few months old at most. This is why agency models test all the time and those shoots are usually trade. Again this will mean nothing to in demand models who book lots of paid work but if that's not you and you want to work listen to your customers. Oh Tony...
This is another thing.. When a photographer hires me they are not required to give me images but they like sharing what we did together and it is also a smart advertising if we post it because it is likely the viewer will go to their portfolios. I have only done a handful of trade shoots over the years and guess what? It took them almost an entire year to give me anything from it. Every single one of them. I also have a limit to what I can post here with slots. I made it a priority to say I have updated images to show anyone who asks. I just can't display them here. I also pride myself in the fact my body has not changed much in 20 years. I post links to selfies I take to prove that. I do this because I am, in fact, a professional.
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21554
Chicago, Illinois, US
Model Sarah wrote:
Oh Tony...
This is another thing.. When a photographer hires me they are not required to give me images but they like sharing what we did together and it is also a smart advertising if we post it because it is likely the viewer will go to their portfolios. I have only done a handful of trade shoots over the years and guess what? It took them almost an entire year to give me anything from it. Every single one of them. I also have a limit to what I can post here with slots. I made it a priority to say I have updated images to show anyone who asks. I just can't display them here. I also pride myself in the fact my body has not changed much in 20 years. I post links to selfies I take to prove that. I do this because I am, in fact, a professional. Hi, Sarah.
You have a great and extensive portfolio. It would be totally understandable that your focus would have been on being paid and expecting a fair rate for your time and talent. The problem for many here is can they pay what many of the models here expect. I talk to a lot of photographers and the answer is <b>no</b> in most cases which is why workshops and group shoot outs can be very popular. I used to work for Pepsi, I made $28.00 an hour. No way, I could afford to pay someone $200 per hour. My shoots tend to last around three hours so that's $600 for imagery I can't recoup my money on. Certainly a model would deserve that but its unaffordable. Some might say, well Tony 'that's your broke as#'. However I know a lot of photographers. Do you remember Chicago Click-Con? https://www.facebook.com/clickcon/. Notice the workshop limited to 20 photographers at $125.00. Sold out for every time slot.
If a model is constantly working for $200 per hour, great! If they are struggling to book paid work maybe consider adjusting those rates and speaking to possible potential customers.
Photographer
Camera Buff
Posts: 1107
Maryborough, Queensland, Australia
Discover the real cost of hiring models in 2026, from day rates and agency fees to usage rights.
https://www.photta.app/blog/how-much-do … shoot-2026
A MUST READ for photographers who compare a SALARY hourly pay rates with the hourly pay rate for a one-off photoshoot with an independent model.
Many of the complaining photographers have varying expectations of what they want in return for their money and possibly don't bother to factor a model's expenses into what their take home pay from a $200 photoshoot fee truly is.
Some photographers expect a model must travel to and from the shoot location on their own time and expense, do their own hair, make-up and preparation work and sign a Release (that ofen gives the photographer usage rights in perpetuity) ... and the clock only starts ticking when the model is actually in front of the camera.
At the end of a paid shoot many photographers refuse to provide their models with any pictures and don't allow models any self-promotional use of the pictures. Sometimes when the shoot is for a third party client this restriction is understandable, but in such cases the photographer isn't usually the person paying the modeling fees.
My suggestion to models is decide on your starting hourly rate and if there are other monetary advantages in doing half or full day shoots, or in being compensated in other ways e.g. wth pictures or keeping wardrobe items, or having professional hair and makeup artists and wardrobe stylists prepare you for your shoot, then you can choose to renegotiate your hourly rate accordingly.
I would also recommend that independent models should have their own legal Release Forms that clearly stipulate usage rights and timeframes and ensure the photographer signs their legal document prior to their being photographed.
Model
Model Sarah
Posts: 41069
Columbus, Ohio, US
Tony Lawrence wrote:
Hi, Sarah.
You have a great and extensive portfolio. It would be totally understandable that your focus would have been on being paid and expecting a fair rate for your time and talent. The problem for many here is can they pay what many of the models here expect. I talk to a lot of photographers and the answer is <b>no</b> in most cases which is why workshops and group shoot outs can be very popular. I used to work for Pepsi, I made $28.00 an hour. No way, I could afford to pay someone $200 per hour. My shoots tend to last around three hours so that's $600 for imagery I can't recoup my money on. Certainly a model would deserve that but its unaffordable. Some might say, well Tony 'that's your broke as#'. However I know a lot of photographers. Do you remember Chicago Click-Con? https://www.facebook.com/clickcon/. Notice the workshop limited to 20 photographers at $125.00. Sold out for every time slot.
If a model is constantly working for $200 per hour, great! If they are struggling to book paid work maybe consider adjusting those rates and speaking to possible potential customers. I get that BUT most photographers that take up photography as a hobby have very nice jobs as engineers and IT guys. I'd say 80% of them that have hired me can afford to have an expensive hobby. The problem is what I outlined above; they choose to focus on equipment rather than hiring us even though we know damn well they can afford both. Their portfolio directly affects that. It's frustrating because it makes us feel disrespected.
I have done a handful of workshops and they were just god awful. Too many photographers on model ratio, first of all. Then their egos, one or two would completely take over the shoot. It made it SO difficult to focus and do my job. I refuse to do those things unless they are really well run, but they never are unfortunately.
Model
Model Sarah
Posts: 41069
Columbus, Ohio, US
Camera Buff wrote:
Discover the real cost of hiring models in 2026, from day rates and agency fees to usage rights.
https://www.photta.app/blog/how-much-do … shoot-2026
A MUST READ for photographers who compare a SALARY hourly pay rates with the hourly pay rate for a one-off photoshoot with an independent model.
[b/Many of the complaining photographers have varying expectations of what they want in return for their money and possibly don't bother to factor a model's expenses into what their take home pay from a $200 photoshoot fee truly is.
Some photographers expect a model must travel to and from the shoot location on their own time and expense, do their own hair, make-up and preparation work and sign a Release (that ofen gives the photographer usage rights in perpetuity) ... and the clock only starts ticking when the model is actually in front of the camera.[/b]
At the end of a paid shoot many photographers refuse to provide their models with any pictures and don't allow models any self-promotional use of the pictures. Sometimes when the shoot is for a third party client this restriction is understandable, but in such cases the photographer isn't usually the person paying the modeling fees.
My suggestion to models is decide on your starting hourly rate and if there are other monetary advantages in doing half or full day shoots, or in being compensated in other ways e.g. wth pictures or keeping wardrobe items, or having professional hair and makeup artists and wardrobe stylists prepare you for your shoot, then you can choose to renegotiate your hourly rate accordingly.
I would also recommend that independent models should have their own legal Release Forms that clearly stipulate usage rights and timeframes and ensure the photographer signs their legal document prior to their being photographed. That's another part of it as well upon reflection of my career, I regret traveling as far as a did for not much. It's part of the fact they think we've lined up 40 shoots when it is usually a few. I have a son so I am not one of those traveling models that goes across the country in a month. I value my time and I have to weigh what is worth it and what isn't. You know the place this is the worst is NYC, easily. It takes FOREVER to get from point A to point B there on the subway/trains. Especially when photographers contact us from New Jersey and we take NJ Transit that can cost $50 one way depending on where they are. They NEVER factored that in. There were no models in their area so traveling models (unless they were already in NJ driving), never worked with them. I don't know how some of them are doing this anymore with the cost of gas. Living in the midwest, it's easy to just get in your car and drive a couple of hours. But a place like, Kalamazoo? No one lives there. I am not booking a two hour shoot for a 4 1/2 hour drive. So Indy, Pittsburgh, parts of Kentucky worked for me. And that is another thing, some cities do not work for models the way they worked for me and vice versa. Photographers likely never knew anything I just said and didn't bother trying to either. It is frustrating.
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