jasontheartist wrote:
So if someone wants to discuss a problem THEY are having why shouldnt they be able to get current feedback from current members?

Because they should have the common sense to use the SEARCH function. Or to READ what the moderators have up for NEW members.

if they can't be bothered to do that, why should we help them?

~*Isabel Aurora*~ wrote:
Things like that I believe people should research first

I agree, but it is even more basic than that.  If they understood how the industry works they wouldn't have to research the specific issue.  The answers would be obvious.

If the more knowledgeable members of the forum stop posting from simple fatigue at the mindless repetitiveness of it all, the gap will be (is) filled by those who don't have any idea what they are talking about.  And that "knowledge" will be absorbed and passed on.  In another thread on this topic someone else used a line that I liked about this issue:  stupid accumulates.

Daniela V wrote:

Because they should have the common sense to use the SEARCH function. Or to READ what the moderators have up for NEW members.

if they can't be bothered to do that, why should we help them?

Inversly, why bother them?

little apple blossom wrote:
I would be doing an assignment and ask how to spell a word and they'd make me look it up in the dictionary. Granted doing things for yourself is good but I never thought I was asking too much and was greatly irritated that they wouldn't just tell me because they took the same amount of effort telling me to look it up

Maybe they were trying to help you learn to be self-sufficient, so that you'd be able to look up your own words when they weren't around to help you. It'd suck to be at the workplace and have to ask your boss how to spell "uneducated" or something.   "Hi, boss, I brought my mom with me to the meeting - is that OK? I might need her to help me answer spelling questions because I never learned how to use a dictionary...."

little apple blossom wrote:
I think the same rule applies here. People go out of there way to post about looking it up when they are in no way forced to respond if they are sick of the topic.

Right! It's because behavior is learned and successful behaviors are reinforced.

So let's say I'm lazy and ignorant:
I start a "WHAT IS A GWC?" thread.
Ten people helpfully tell me, and nobody points out that there's an FAQ and nobody makes me feel a little bit bad for not engaging my brain before I ask a question.
Next time I have a question, I've learned that NOT engaging my brain is fine, and I can just ask stupid questions and there are helpful people who will politely and kindly answer them for me.
Likelihood I'll start another stupid thread: 100%
So you get nothing but a flood of stupid questions!

The other path goes like this:
I am lazy and ignorant and start a "WHAT IS A GWC?" thread.
And I get 10 people telling me to not be lazy and ignorant and to read the FAQ.
Likelihood I'll start another stupid thread? Less than 100%.

Best of all is when someone else who is lazy and ignorant stumbles across that thread and thinks "WOW! This site is not very friendly to the lazy and ignorant! I'd better either leave or hide the fact that I'm lazy and ignorant by reading the FAQ."

mjr.

Scribe of Souls wrote:

Inversly, why bother them?

Because they bother us with stupidity.

Marcus J. Ranum wrote:

little apple blossom wrote:
I would be doing an assignment and ask how to spell a word and they'd make me look it up in the dictionary. Granted doing things for yourself is good but I never thought I was asking too much and was greatly irritated that they wouldn't just tell me because they took the same amount of effort telling me to look it up

Maybe they were trying to help you learn to be self-sufficient, so that you'd be able to look up your own words when they weren't around to help you. It'd suck to be at the workplace and have to ask your boss how to spell "uneducated" or something.   "Hi, boss, I brought my mom with me to the meeting - is that OK? I might need her to help me answer spelling questions because I never learned how to use a dictionary...."


Right! It's because behavior is learned and successful behaviors are reinforced.

So let's say I'm lazy and ignorant:
I start a "WHAT IS A GWC?" thread.
Ten people helpfully tell me, and nobody points out that there's an FAQ and nobody makes me feel a little bit bad for not engaging my brain before I ask a question.
Next time I have a question, I've learned that NOT engaging my brain is fine, and I can just ask stupid questions and there are helpful people who will politely and kindly answer them for me.
Likelihood I'll start another stupid thread: 100%
So you get nothing but a flood of stupid questions!

The other path goes like this:
I am lazy and ignorant and start a "WHAT IS A GWC?" thread.
And I get 10 people telling me to not be lazy and ignorant and to read the FAQ.
Likelihood I'll start another stupid thread? Less than 100%.

Best of all is when someone else who is lazy and ignorant stumbles across that thread and thinks "WOW! This site is not very friendly to the lazy and ignorant! I'd better either leave or hide the fact that I'm lazy and ignorant by reading the FAQ."

mjr.

Marcus J. Ranum wrote:

Maybe they were trying to help you learn to be self-sufficient, so that you'd be able to look up your own words when they weren't around to help you. It'd suck to be at the workplace and have to ask your boss how to spell "uneducated" or something.   "Hi, boss, I brought my mom with me to the meeting - is that OK? I might need her to help me answer spelling questions because I never learned how to use a dictionary...."


Right! It's because behavior is learned and successful behaviors are reinforced.

So let's say I'm lazy and ignorant:
I start a "WHAT IS A GWC?" thread.
Ten people helpfully tell me, and nobody points out that there's an FAQ and nobody makes me feel a little bit bad for not engaging my brain before I ask a question.
Next time I have a question, I've learned that NOT engaging my brain is fine, and I can just ask stupid questions and there are helpful people who will politely and kindly answer them for me.
Likelihood I'll start another stupid thread: 100%
So you get nothing but a flood of stupid questions!

The other path goes like this:
I am lazy and ignorant and start a "WHAT IS A GWC?" thread.
And I get 10 people telling me to not be lazy and ignorant and to read the FAQ.
Likelihood I'll start another stupid thread? Less than 100%.

Best of all is when someone else who is lazy and ignorant stumbles across that thread and thinks "WOW! This site is not very friendly to the lazy and ignorant! I'd better either leave or hide the fact that I'm lazy and ignorant by reading the FAQ."

mjr.

but I knew how to use a dictionary already. I wouldn't expect someone to look up a word when I'm right there and know how to spell it. Maybe I'm just more naturally helpful while it may not discourage them from posting as much as you'd like people could try telling them about the search function in a helpful polite way instead of in a "you're stupid, you should have known even though you're new, don't ask questions" kind of way. Just a thought.

little apple blossom wrote:
but I knew how to use a dictionary already.

In that case, it isn't very helpful, you're right. I mean, when my wife asks me how to spell a word (this happens about 3 times a year) I don't tell her to run for the dictionary, either. She knows how to do all that stuff. And besides, who wants rat poison in their mashed potatoes?

little apple blossom wrote:
.... try telling them about the search function in a helpful polite way instead of in a "you're stupid, you should have known even though you're new, don't ask questions" kind of way. Just a thought.

Yeah, from watching the rate at which dumb threads repeat themselves here, I think we can probably assume that being nice hasn't worked very well. Maybe we can try Plan B?

Actually, Game Theory would probably say that the way it's handled is perfect. Sometimes, when you ask a stupid question, you get slapped. Other times you get told helpfully that you're stupid, and other times you get a useful answer. Eventually the questioner learns that there's only a 1/3 chance of a rewarding behavior, but there's only a 1/3 chance of a punishment - so only 1 in 3 stupid people get their feelings hurt but 2 in 3 of them learn to read the FAQ. Over time, the probability that any given stupid question-asker will not get smacked is very low, so the long-term behavior will get suppressed. Pretty good!

The whole reason that analysis falls on its face, of course, is because there are always new members (who don't know what a GWC is) being added to the population. Maybe what we should do is have Tyler tell them they are stupid before they even complete the sign up process. Actually, it'd be cool if you were somehow required to read the FAQ before you create a log-in. "There will be a test..."

mjr.

Daniela V wrote:
Because they should have the common sense to use the SEARCH function. Or to READ what the moderators have up for NEW members.

if they can't be bothered to do that, why should we help them?

So you are telling me that people post here actualy because they care about the answers to their questions?  See I always felt that we are all attention whores here and thats the only reason why we post. How otherwise to explain someones 3000 or 7000 posts? I sure am working on my number as we speak.

So why deny new people their fair share of everyones attention?

So here is my question of the day: why some photographers don't alowe escorts?

Bruce Millich wrote:

So you are telling me that people post here actualy because they care about the answers to their questions?  See I always felt that we are all attention whores here and thats the only reason why we post. How otherwise to explain someones 3000 or 7000 posts? I sure am working on my number as we speak.

So why deny new people their fair share of everyones attention?

So here is my question of the day: why some photographers don't alowe escorts?

Thread hijacking can be dangerous!  Check the FAQ, or post another thread and wait for your punishment!

Habenero Photography wrote:

Thread hijacking can be dangerous!  Check the FAQ, or post another thread and wait for your punishment!

Ok, I'll type slower this time...
if everybody did search on subject they are about to post, noone would post anything any more becasue pretty much every possible question was already asked.
Therefore if noone posts anything  any more, noone will be noticed any more...for example, I just noticed you. Until now I had no idea that you exist. And thats all happening thanks to the OP.
So I say...lets all post, whatever it is, already answered or not, and who has already participated in similar threads ...move to the next.

Habenero Photography wrote:
People that are too lazy to read the FAQ's invite scorn, regardless of the number of times they have posted.

Oooh, scorn from a nameless faceless person somewhere in cyberspace.  That has to hurt.

Daniela V wrote:

Because they bother us with stupidity.

I'm not entirely sure that much of this is intellectually challenging so why characterize on that dimension?  Either rules of a forum are fully constrained and enforced by the proprietor or one must expect some level noise.  What likely bothers the OP is the level of (perceived) condescension that accompanies the ostensibly corrective action.

Bruce Millich wrote:
So you are telling me that people post here actualy because they care about the answers to their questions?  See I always felt that we are all attention whores here and thats the only reason why we post. How otherwise to explain someones 3000 or 7000 posts? I sure am working on my number as we speak.

So why deny new people their fair share of everyones attention?

So here is my question of the day: why some photographers don't alowe escorts?

Habenero Photography wrote:
Thread hijacking can be dangerous!  Check the FAQ, or post another thread and wait for your punishment!

LMAOROFL   You guys are too much...LOL...I love the entertainment on here!

jasontheartist wrote:
Maybe you can use the time instead of attacking newcomers to complain to the webmaster and get your own forum catagory?

Has anyone else noticed how often statements like this get made?  (Answer: pretty often).

Has anyone else noticed how often such statements are made by people who themselves are new to the forums, or have little knowledge to contribute?  (Answer: almost all the time).

This is a self-correcting impression.  Just stick around and answer stupid questions a few thousand times and you'd be surprised how tired of it you get, and how much you understand the frustrated responses.

But until you've done that, it's awfully tempting, isn't it, to go sit on your thrones and polish your crowns (dont forget to tell each other how cool you are) while us regular contributors struggle through your problems.

TXPhotog wrote:

Has anyone else noticed how often statements like this get made?  (Answer: pretty often).

Has anyone else noticed how often such statements are made by people who themselves are new to the forums, or have little knowledge to contribute?  (Answer: almost all the time).

This is a self-correcting impression.  Just stick around and answer stupid questions a few thousand times and you'd be surprised how tired of it you get, and how much you understand the frustrated responses.

But until you've done that, it's awfully tempting, isn't it, to go sit on your thrones and polish your crowns (dont forget to tell each other how cool you are) while us regular contributors struggle through your problems.

Basically.  It also pains me to see how many people would like such a soft hand applied to this site that they always proclaim to be an INDUSTRY site when the INDUSTRY itself is so much more brutal than anything anyone has EVER said in forums.  Point blank, if the worst thing that happens in your modeling/ photography career is that some forum poster told you to look before you leap and read the fucking rules then I think you've had it pretty damn easy.

You people do more damage to others with your unyielding acceptance of the inane than any of us who are blunt, direct and "rude" as you would label it.

~*Isabel Aurora*~ wrote:
I think the main thing that gets me is when people post things like:

"Photographer didn't give me any images. Has this happened to anyone else?"

"A model didn't show and I'm so mad - has this happened to anyone else?"

"How do you feel about escorts??"


and the ever fun:

"I have an interview with an agent but they want me to do it over the webcam.  Is this legi


"A modeling agency in London is offering me $50,000 to do a runway show for them [not to mention I"m 5'1'', 140lbs and have never done runway].  Is this legit?"


Things like that I believe people should research first

Hear, hear.
I agree.

jasontheartist wrote:
Ive noticed a trend here on this site. It seems like these "search the forums" and "OH God not this again....." are popping up constantly.

Firstly the saying goes "If you have nothing nice to say......." but thats not going to work on here.

So if someone wants to discuss a problem THEY are having why shouldnt they be able to get current feedback from current members?

They should go sift through your verbal history...because you find it offensive to talk about a topic multiple times?

how many times do you talk about the same things everyday? When your friend asks you about something you talked about a few years ago with someone else do you respond with " Hey I talked about that already......"

When a new poster posts something and gets jumped on by you "postmasters" you could be damaging the confidence of newcomers, thats real professional of you.

Ill close with a statment that will lead to some arguing, because thats all that gets any attention on here.

If all you "million post masters" are going to do is complain when new and amateur people post their problems... go sit on your thrones and polish your crowns (dont forget to tell each other how cool you are) while us regular people struggle through our problems.

Maybe you can use the time instead of attacking newcomers to complain to the webmaster and get your own forum catagory?

Stick around a little longer and you will be just like them.

TXPhotog wrote:
I agree, but it is even more basic than that.  If they understood how the industry works they wouldn't have to research the specific issue.  The answers would be obvious.

If the more knowledgeable members of the forum stop posting from simple fatigue at the mindless repetitiveness of it all, the gap will be (is) filled by those who don't have any idea what they are talking about.  And that "knowledge" will be absorbed and passed on.  In another thread on this topic someone else used a line that I liked about this issue:  stupid accumulates.

I'd like to see this in big throbbing neon letters, high atop the hill overlooking MMville, for everyone to see and comprehend.

bt

(( make 'em blue, I like blue. ))

jasontheartist wrote:
Ive noticed a trend here on this site. It seems like these "search the forums" and "OH God not this again....." are popping up constantly.

Firstly the saying goes "If you have nothing nice to say......." but thats not going to work on here.

So if someone wants to discuss a problem THEY are having why shouldnt they be able to get current feedback from current members?

They should go sift through your verbal history...because you find it offensive to talk about a topic multiple times?

how many times do you talk about the same things everyday? When your friend asks you about something you talked about a few years ago with someone else do you respond with " Hey I talked about that already......"

When a new poster posts something and gets jumped on by you "postmasters" you could be damaging the confidence of newcomers, thats real professional of you.

Ill close with a statment that will lead to some arguing, because thats all that gets any attention on here.

If all you "million post masters" are going to do is complain when new and amateur people post their problems... go sit on your thrones and polish your crowns (dont forget to tell each other how cool you are) while us regular people struggle through our problems.

Maybe you can use the time instead of attacking newcomers to complain to the webmaster and get your own forum catagory?

I think this makes sense if they have a particular question that is different from the ones asked every other day.
But if someone wants to ask what their rates should be, why not refer them to the thread posted two days ago with the same exact question?  Is it a different question?  No.  Are there going to be different answers?  No.  Well.. Yes if people are irritated by it and don't give a serious answer.  .

little apple blossom wrote:
here's an idea maybe I should post it in site related discussion, why don't we have a forum on the top that has commonly asked questions in it. It will be called...get ready for it... rump pum pum pum....The Commonly Asked Questions Forum. hmm? With something that obvious holding answers to questions I would say feel free to get on the forum posters a bit, but still be nice because they may not have seen it. I know conditioning them works better but I'd rather be nice than spend my time trying to train other humans like dogs.

There are like three such threads like this already.

https://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=47436

https://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=18926

https://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=14609

This is all independent of the FAQ:

https://www.modelmayhem.com/faq.php



TWO of them are stickied at the top of the VERY forum you are posting in.  If people choose not to notice them now, making another one won't make them notice it then.

Bruce Talbot wrote:

I'd like to see this in big throbbing neon letters, high atop the hill overlooking MMville, for everyone to see and comprehend.

bt

(( make 'em blue, I like blue. ))

We can't all be superman.

Now go back to the Daily Planet.  Jimmy the newsboy is having problems with his zoom lens.

Ransom J wrote:

There are like three such threads like this already.

https://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=47436

https://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=18926

https://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=14609

This is all independent of the FAQ:

https://www.modelmayhem.com/faq.php



TWO of them are stickied at the top of the VERY forum you are posting in.  If people choose not to notice them now, making another one won't make them notice it then.

These are helpful but I think perhaps it would stick out even more if it were it's own forum, like general mayhem, at the very top of forums above newbie forum. I don't know maybe it would help maybe it'd be the same.

little apple blossom wrote:

These are helpful but I think perhaps it would stick out even more if it were it's own forum, like general mayhem, at the very top of forums above newbie forum. I don't know maybe it would help maybe it'd be the same.

I highly doubt that changing the location of already available information is going to stop the 50 duplicate posts a day.

little apple blossom wrote:

These are helpful but I think perhaps it would stick out even more if it were it's own forum, like general mayhem, at the very top of forums above newbie forum. I don't know maybe it would help maybe it'd be the same.

So you want information spoon fed to the mouth breathers?

Ransom J wrote:

So you want information spoon fed to the mouth breathers?

well wouldn't you rather do that than answer all of their questions several times a day? it seams you really hate it.

Ransom J wrote:

So you want information spoon fed to the mouth breathers?

Honestly, I think we are a hell of a lot nicer than the "real world".

Lamonica wrote:

I highly doubt that changing the location of already available information is going to stop the 50 duplicate posts a day.

I don't think it will stop it but it may reduce it and if it's such and issue for everyone I don't see why giving it a try would hurt.

little apple blossom wrote:

well wouldn't you rather do that than answer all of their questions several times a day? it seams you really hate it.

The questions are already answered, they just showed their utter laziness by not even talking the 2 seconds to click on the FAQ link or the stickies at the top of the forums. It doesn't get any easier than that.

little apple blossom wrote:

well wouldn't you rather do that than answer all of their questions several times a day? it seams you really hate it.

No.  I don't coddle people. 

I hate stupid questions but I hate coddling even more as it begets MORE stupid questions.  And ignoring it leads to misinformation being promagated and that leads to MORE stupid questions.