MoRina wrote:
In my experience, those who threaten to ruin someone else's career have no power to do so. Typically it's just a nobody who has no real reputation of their own anyway. They have no platform. Anyone who has met them already knows they are an asshole, so their word means nothing.
Models are best to just block them on every platform and move on. Don't respond - just walk away.

The correct response is to report them to site admin, and if the threats are serious enough, law enforcement authorities because in some cases, these people are dangerous.

JSouthworth wrote:
The correct response is to report them to site admin, and if the threats are serious enough, law enforcement authorities because in some cases, these people are dangerous.

I guarantee you that there are no admins on Instagram or any other site that have any power to do anything. And law enforcement? Ha. They have no jurisdiction to handle vague threats of blacklisting. It's funny that you actually think somebody would do anything about it.

MoRina wrote:
I guarantee you that there are no admins on Instagram or any other site that have any power to do anything. And law enforcement? Ha. They have no jurisdiction to handle vague threats of blacklisting. It's funny that you actually think somebody would do anything about it.

Instagram isn't specifically a model photography site, so they might not regard the problems of the model photography scene as being their responsibility, but even so they are responsible for what happens on their site.

Law enforcement might take an interest if the threats were to escalate in the way that they sometimes do.

To get back to the original topic, I can think of one situation where a photographer might not be expected to pay a model for nude work. That would be if the photographer and model were both members of the same New Age community, and the pictures were intended to be used for publicity purposes.

David A Reichel wrote:
A model with whom I've worked with frequently (I paid her model fee for casual, fashion, and nude) over the past several years told me this during our last shoot.
She was DM-ed by a photographer through her IG page.  He did not follow her nor any of her connections.  He wanted to shoot boudoir and nude.  She told him she only did paid work, especially for nudes.  He responded that he did not pay models and he would only give her a couple of images from the shoot.  She said no thanks, and again stated she only did paid work for nudes.  It seems he got belligerent (my word) and said he would "ruin" her because she wanted to be paid for a shoot.
I'm curious if any models have had similar experiences and how you handled them.

Yup.
Was called a whore and worse for not wanting to "do it for art".
I usually keep a file folder of screen shots on my hard drive. Just in case some dummy decides to be loud.

JSouthworth wrote:
Law enforcement might take an interest if the threats were to escalate in the way that they sometimes do.

Nope. We're just a bunch of hos who deserve what we have coming for being "in the profession" anyway.
In the eyes of the law, a nude model is half a banana peel away from a prostitute.
DM me for specs. 

Source: me, myself and I, law enforcement of several different states where things and stuff happened over the years.

JSouthworth wrote:

Yeah well, if you think that models are half a step away from cheap hookers, you'll probably find that they look that way in your pictures.

Excuse me?

JSouthworth wrote:
...

WTF?

JSouthworth has become infamous for all the wrong reasons, but this is an all time low.  If there were any moderators left, it would be his final post.  As it should be.

LightDreams wrote:

WTF?

JSouthworth has become infamous for all the wrong reasons, but this is an all time low.  If there were any moderators left, it would be his final post.  As it should be.

Hooking aside, I wonder how they got to "cheap"..
Ngl, I dig the envy eruption. Sure hope such a strong opinion didn't ruin me now.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
Excuse me?

He missed the context.  Typical.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
Nope. We're just a bunch of hos who deserve what we have coming for being "in the profession" anyway.
In the eyes of the law, a nude model is half a banana peel away from a prostitute.
DM me for specs. 

Source: me, myself and I, law enforcement of several different states where things and stuff happened over the years.

Someday, I hope, we will work together, but I think more time will be spent with me listening to your stories and learning from your experience, than we will spend working.

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
He missed the context.  Typical.


Someday, I hope, we will work together, but I think more time will be spent with me listening to your stories and learning from your experience, than we will spend working.

Come on down, the water is fine

Dea and the Beast wrote:

Excuse me?

My apologies, I somehow overlooked the fact that you're a model not a photographer. I don't have any real excuse for that, I must have just gotten lost in my own train of thought.
I think there are probably a lot of male photographers who would share your perspective on law enforcement, to the extent that if a model made a complaint against them they would expect to get sympathetic treatment from the police. The problem is that as long as people accept that situation nothing changes. There are some problems which can only be dealt with by people deciding what they have to do in a particular situation, then doing it. I have no sympathy for people who abuse women or for people who look the other way.
On the other hand I have no problem with prostitutes as a group of people, in fact I quite enjoy working out and putting together stylised streetwalker outfits for photo shoots, white sandals with matching leather vest and hat for example. But I'm not suggesting or implying any involvement on your part in that type of activity.

Alexandra Vincent wrote:
I've been threated and insulted in various (pointless and stupid) ways in the past, generally after turning down trade shoots or responding to a trade requests by sending rates.

I've heard the horror stories over the years, I'm so sorry this happens, it saddens me to see that showing models the slightest bit of kindness (e.g. snacks, covering transportation/parking costs) comes as a huge surprise to them. I mean, this should be norm. Sending rates is not an insult, it's often happened to me, but one can just say "thank you, I'll keep it in mind" and move on (or not, no shame in paying a model). Treat cancellations with empathy and re-booking becomes a real possibility. I've also been stood up/ghosted countless times, my send-off text is "hope you're OK" and that's that, I'll go watch a movie or something.

Just be respectful and polite, return edits promptly, and what do you know, every single shoot I've ever done has been on a TF basis.

JSouthworth wrote:
My apologies, I somehow overlooked the fact that you're a model not a photographer. I don't have any real excuse for that, I must have just gotten lost in my own train of thought.

Somehow you believe that makes it better?? Take your insults and your pathetic back pedal here and take a good hard look at your own "work". Then tell me again what *I* look like.


What a royal turnip. Smh.

Dea and the Beast wrote:

Somehow you believe that makes it better?? Take your insults and your pathetic back pedal here and take a good hard look at your own "work". Then tell me again what *I* look like.


What a royal turnip. Smh.

You may have a point, it was a careless mistake on my part. But if I told you that I confused you with someone else in another thread, it wouldn't be true and you probably wouldn't believe me anyway.

JSouthworth wrote:
You may have a point, it was a careless mistake on my part. But if I told you that I confused you with someone else in another thread, it wouldn't be true and you probably wouldn't believe me anyway.

Obviously you don't know who you're messing with . . . best to keep your ignorance and your stupid comments to yourself.

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
Obviously you don't know who you're messing with . . . best to keep your ignorance and your stupid comments to yourself.

Trust me when I tell you that I have no intention of messing with anyone. As I've already explained, it was an oversight, nothing more than that.

JSouthworth wrote:

Are you still here?

Mark Salo wrote:

Are you still here?

What do you think?

JSouthworth wrote:
Trust me when I tell you that I have no intention of messing with anyone. As I've already explained, it was an oversight, nothing more than that.

It was not an oversight.  It was a rude and obnoxious comment.  You should accept responsibility, make a contrite and unequivocal apology and stop trying to make excuses.

Garry k wrote:
I am dealing with a very different problem in my local community...

I can't see that meeting going well...   As a side note, I should be clear that while I'm in Vancouver, I'm not involved with fashion shows so I doubt that I know the photographer involved.

However, I strongly suspect that he will simply view you as a "competitor" that is telling him that he's just "no good" and that he "should stop" (not likely to end well!).  Unless you're offering to mentor him or something like that, which might lead him to view your comments differently.

Especially if HE believes that he can help models in this area.  You mentioned that he appears to have tried.

You also have to be incredibly careful about what you say to others (potential customers / models), or post online about him. 

Canada doesn't have the crazy court awards of the U.S., but they still just awarded $90,000 over someone's bad (social media) review of their business.  Even though that reviewer seemed to believe that he was "right".  And, you can imagine what would happen if the Court thinks that you might be a possible competitor.

Personally, I figure that there's ALWAYS people that aren't as good (at least not yet) and, unless there's an extreme situation (sexual predator alert or a very deliberate scam, etc), that's just the way it goes.  It's better to promote your own level of expertise instead.  Or even better, to come up with positive steps to "raise the standards and capabilities of everyone else" involved in that area.

But that's just my opinion.

Mark Salo wrote:
1) You probably won't get him to change.
2) Do other photographers agree with you? Why don't you start an educational group for models?

Yes - I doubt it

I don’t know what most local photographers think about what he is doing - my guess is that the majority would be supportive of him as he is making $ doing this . Further I think they would also think it’s the Models responsibility to educate themselves about such matters from the start

Personally I only have 2 Local Photographer Friends that I talk Photography with. One Friend shoots Only Fans and the other is into Boudoir - so my concern is of no relevance to them

The main way that New Models seem to be getting into the mix in my area is through local FB Models and Photographers Groups . I previously approached these Groups suggesting that  theyput a pre amble about basic Model Safety in the Intro to the Groups ( because we have our share of Unsafe Photographers to work with ) and they were not interested . So I don’t think they would be interested in this concern either

I did however start a general discussion about the matter ( Photographers who tell Models that they can open Fashion Opportunities if the Model pays for a Shoot with the Photographer ) The discussion went well but of course petered out after a few days

LightDreams wrote:
I can't see that meeting going well...   As a side note, I should be clear that while I'm in Vancouver, I'm not involved with fashion shows so I doubt that I know the photographer involved.

However, I strongly suspect that he will simply view you as a "competitor" that is telling him that he's just "no good" and that he "should stop" (not likely to end well!).  Unless you're offering to mentor him or something like that, which might lead him to view your comments differently.

Especially if HE believes that he can help models in this area.  You mentioned that he appears to have tried.

You also have to be incredibly careful about what you say to others (potential customers / models), or post online about him. 

Canada doesn't have the crazy court awards of the U.S., but they still just awarded $90,000 over someone's bad (social media) review of their business.  Even though that reviewer seemed to believe that he was "right".  And, you can imagine what would happen if the Court thinks that you might be a possible competitor.

Personally, I figure that there's ALWAYS people that aren't as good (at least not yet) and, unless there's an extreme situation (sexual predator alert or a very deliberate scam, etc), that's just the way it goes.  It's better to promote your own level of expertise instead.  Or even better, to come up with positive steps to "raise the standards and capabilities of everyone else" involved in that area.

But that's just my opinion.

Yes Probably

And he likely doesn’t know enough to understand that bad photography can diminish a Models brand

Your points about slander/ libel are understood

MoRina wrote:
In my experience, those who threaten to ruin someone else's career have no power to do so. Typically it's just a nobody who has no real reputation of their own anyway. They have no platform. Anyone who has met them already knows they are an asshole, so their word means nothing.
Models are best to just block them on every platform and move on. Don't respond - just walk away.

It's the bad side of humanity that has me rooting for the robots in the Terminator franchise!

MoRina wrote:

I guarantee you that there are no admins on Instagram or any other site that have any power to do anything. And law enforcement? Ha. They have no jurisdiction to handle vague threats of blacklisting. It's funny that you actually think somebody would do anything about it.

Contact the police?  For what?  At best you have a civil dispute....  Police have jurisdiction over criminal matters, and this would get about as much attention from any officer as a female saying she didn't get a part in a movie.