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Parents uncomfortable w/ fashion industry
Below is a transcript of an exchange between me and a "model" here on MM AND her mother (names have been obscured to protect the ignorant): "Subject: Would love to . . . JAY carreon 12/12/06 5:54 AM (Message read) shoot fashion & beauty images with you on a trade basis. HAPPY CHRISTMAS & MERRY NEW YEAR!!! Warm Regards, JAY carreon PHOTOGRAPHER http://www.portfolios.com/JAYcarreon L*** from JDMA 12/12/06 5:29 PM Hi, sorry im new to this whole site thing. I like your work and would love to shoot with you. but i have no idea what it would be to do it on a trade basis. please explain lol. And ya im not signing with the Agency so thanks for the warning. L*** L*** from JDMA 12/12/06 8:54 PM Hi Jay, L*** is a minor and I as her mother I am not comfortable with the 18+ shots in your portfolio, thanks for the offer, but no thanks. D**** (L***'s mom) JAY carreon 12/13/06 2:20 AM (Unread) Hello D****, My 18+ shots have nothing to do with L*** - I do not shoot those sorts of images with minors. I am only interested in shooting CLOTHED fashion & beauty shots with L***. I would advise you to go ahead and consult with Janice Dickinson on this matter. Sincerely, JAY carreon PHOTOGRAPHER http://www.portfolios.com/JAYcarreon " Your thoughts? JAY carreon PHOTOGRAPHER Dec 13 06 03:01 am Link Well - I mean, I could only suggest what her mom "thinks". It's pretty rediculose, but in the same time I could understand her Mother/protective instinct. My mother stopped me from ANY kind of modeling 8 years ago, but I had a good chances to move up in that industry. Yes, she now sais that she was OVERprotective. And I regret that I didn't push it hard enought to let me shoot and model, but in the same time, I'd probably never went throught the law school if I was doing it. So it's a kind tough topic for everyone involved here... Dec 13 06 03:07 am Link don't see where there's room for any debate: if a model is a minor, then what that model's parent/guardian says stands until said model reaches majority. what is there to debate or argue? simply move on. Dec 13 06 03:15 am Link sounds like a great reason to only put up non-nude images on public portfolios. Dec 13 06 03:15 am Link Madcitychel wrote: Thanks Madcitychel! There is a difference between being "protective" and being prejudicial and judgmental. Here mother automatically assumed that I was going to take "nekkid pikshurs" of her daughter just because I had FASHION shots involving nudity in my portfolio. She was too ignorant to even ask me exactly what kinds of shots I was wanting to do with her daughter. Dec 13 06 03:16 am Link Frank M. Lopez wrote: The argument/debate is about people being judgmental and prejudicial and jumping to conclusions. Perhaps you should read my reply to her? The mother didn't even bother to ask me exactly what sort of images I was planning to shoot with her daughter. Dec 13 06 03:19 am Link Dave Wright Photo wrote: This reminds me of that story about the two men who took their donkey into town . . . Dec 13 06 03:20 am Link Personally.. I'd just move on.. and not worry about it. Life is too short to worry about a parent being protective. I as a parent can understand... Although she didn't ask specifics, she just decided that some of your images made her uncomfortable and declined on behalf of her minor daughter. No big deal. IMO. I can, however, understand how it could irritate you. Andrew Dec 13 06 03:27 am Link Silliness. Dec 13 06 04:11 am Link JAY carreon wrote: This reminds me of the vet, the farmer and the sick cow. Dec 13 06 05:19 am Link Parents just dont understand Dec 13 06 05:22 am Link Frank M. Lopez wrote: I agree...it's whatever Mom says. Mom may not be keen on the whole thing anyway and may want to test the waters slowly and with someone who shoots very vanilla things...I don't blame her...the world is a scary place... Dec 13 06 05:34 am Link On a similar note, this model contacted me about working together. I proposed a Sexy, Urban, Guerilla Fighter Theme shoot that I have been looking for a model like her for. This would require topless for the shoot. Her profile stated that she was 16 but had completed college in her education. So I knew she was over 18. MODEL: Hi Dave, Thanks for the reply. I am older than 16. I just don't want men harrassing me. I am sure you understand. I don't like to go overboard with sex appeal. I know that I have two very revealing pics on my page. My agent gets upset with me. He thinks I'm ruining my image with the sexy pics. I don't mind doing something sexy but would like it to be sexy conservative. Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks, ME: I repect that if you don't want to do it, that's fine. I just thought I would run it past you. The model that was going to shoot it with me deleted her profile a week before we were going to schedule her shoot. So now I am up in the air running it past other models that fit the vision. I had one polite no thank you. The others have yet to respond at all. After a few exchanges of emails I get this message: MODEL: I think I'm a little nervous. You seem to have a lot of naked women on your port. I plan on wearing clothes. Dress, probably. I'm not sure if that is okay with you. I don't want to do anything revealing. Women are topless here. I don't remember your pics like this on myspace. MY RESPONCE: Just because I do shoot some nudes doesn't mean I can't shoot other stuff. You don't see any of my product shots done with a 4X5 Camera either. The airshow pix, motorcross, hockey, football, soccer, etc. Model Mayhem is for shooting models, that is why I show so many people pix there. I do want my direction to go more Glamour, Lingerie and Artistic Nudes. Myspace rules state that they don't want any nudity posted on their site. That is why none of my nudes are posted there. If I could post more than the 20 pix on Model Mayhem you would see more of the other stuff. Quote from my second message to you: "I repect that if you don't want to do it, that's fine. I just thought I would run it past you." All I could do is ask. If you didn't want to shoot that style I was fine with it. Here are some links to galleries on my website that don't have models in them: http://www.kr2s.com/photo/Gallery4.htm http://www.kr2s.com/photo/Gallery5.htm http://www.kr2s.com/photo/Gallery3.htm I am a generalist in that I shoot whatever I want, whenever I feel like it. I have 29 years of photographic experience. I went to college to get my Associate of Science Degree in Photography. I have 10 photos in the latest issue of Stomp Fashion Magazine. Stomp wants me to shoot 5 more articles for their next issue. If I was anything but professional on any of those shoots, do you think they would want me around? There is a Camera club meeting Thursday night at the Studio. If you want to stop by and meet first feel free. Unlike the GWCs that permiate the internet with the only intention of taking pictures of naked girls. I have credentials and many years of experience. I am trying to create art with my photographs. If I still make you nervous, you can contact any of the models I shot here on MM and ask about me. Go to their Profiles and send them a message. Call the owner of the studio and voice any concerns you have about me to him. If after all this you still have concerns, Then there is nothing anyone can say to you. Your mind is made up. Have a nice day, nice chatting with you, good luck in your modeling career. Dave Well, long story short, She still wants to work together. Dave Mullins Nashua, New Hampshire Dec 13 06 06:25 am Link It is just an example of how some people go into this industry thinking they can determine what kind of work they will get because of their likes and dislikes. You should what pays your bills and that includes 18+ images. If they dont like it they can pay you to remove the images or shut their mouths and keep their opinions to themselves. Alot of times it is not the lack of a good look or talent that keeps some people from succeeding in modeling but rather their thoughts, opinions, missions, beliefs etc. Laugh at their kid's short modeling career and move on. No..no one is saying you should do photos not suitable for a minor.....but if they think they will find quality industry photographers who have never pointed their lenses at naked nipples they are in for a long search Dec 13 06 06:46 am Link JAY carreon wrote: Keeping in mind that I mean this in a nice way, and your work looks VERY good, very professional... Dec 13 06 08:39 am Link JAY carreon wrote: From reading your first post, I'm not so sure she was assuming anything as much as she was concerned about her daughter's image(s) being placed among the 18+ images. Her thoughts may have been that other Photographers may have seen her image among them and asumed she was among, or a part of a group that did provocative modeling. Just my thought anyway. Dec 13 06 08:48 am Link I think that girl missed out on a great opurtunity.I'd shoot with you in a heartbeat. Dec 13 06 08:50 am Link I think it's a bit silly for her mother to assume that her daughter would be doing nude shots. It is, however, her mother's decision is final over her daughter's. Also, her mother may not feel comfortable having her daughter's work/photos be associated with someone who shot nude photos, you know? She might be worried that it will some how get back to her daughter as a negative thing. Dec 13 06 08:51 am Link It is all about attitude and you cannot control parents attitudes, narrow minded as they may be. I had a TFP workshop at the beach and had several models come form a modeling school and on mom thught it was inappropriate for her 16 (almost 17 year old) daughter to pose in a bathing suit, even a one piece. Then she was upset that she did not get lots of photos. Swimsuit- Beach What was she thinking? Dec 13 06 09:05 am Link Robert, that's a bit extreme. If she agreed to the shoot before hand and was TOLD it was a swimsuit on the beach shoot, she should've known! Dec 13 06 09:10 am Link You're assuming that's what she thinks. But you don't know. It may come to a surprise to those of us who are in the industry and somewhat jaded, but there is a large part of America that is VERY conservative -- they're the ones responsible for getting covers on the racks for Cosmopoliton and Vogue in grocery stores, etc. If these people had their way, we'd end up looking pretty much like one of the conservative Islamic countries, except with crosses instead of crescents. My guess is that she's a mom who thinks any nudity is wrong and sinful, and doesn't want to associate with evil scum like you who peddle filth to the world. Ridiculous? Yes. But predictable -- just move on. Edit: Fortunately, some conservative people aren't narrow-minded -- I got my best client -- a large conservative political organization, at a time when I was shooting a LOT of nudity, and it was all over my online website. I know that my site was the subject of a lot of conversations in the office, but they used me anyway. JAY carreon wrote: Dec 13 06 09:14 am Link Looking at your port Jay, I think it's wonderful. I'm Chloes mum and I do get involved in what she does or doesn't do. However just looking at your port I wouldn't hesitate for you to work with Chlo..albeit a large expanse of water divides lol..Love your beauty images amongst others :-) Melissa- CJ's mum x Dec 13 06 09:15 am Link Robert Helm wrote: Well you could have been thinking: Beach? Nude! She probably was. Dec 13 06 09:47 am Link I think the bottom line is that the mother said she wasn't interested. Dec 13 06 10:42 am Link JAY carreon wrote: i guess the first question is, what was the warning you gave regarding an agency (did you only provide a partial portion of the first message)? Dec 13 06 10:44 am Link I have had the mothers of models contact me to shoot and they specifically stated that they chose me because I did not have nudes on my site. Most likely, as someone else had said, the mother was concerned that her daughters shots would be mixed right in there with the nudes not that you were unscrupulous as a photographer. Dec 13 06 01:03 pm Link JAY carreon wrote: I think you should thank the girl's mother for the warning. Do you really need all the aggravation that is sure to follow when you deal with this woman? What's this girl got that would even make you think twice about dealing with such a paranoid parent? Whatever she looks like, I'm sure you can find someone with the same look [who's over 18 maybe?] in little or no time. There are only like a trillion models in the world. Dec 13 06 01:58 pm Link This is one reason why I keep my fashion/glamour seperate from my art photography.Lots of fashion/glamour models, especially newbies, see nudes in your portfolio and ASSume that is what you expect of them. Even if you have 99.99% non nud fashion/glamour in your portfolio and.01% nude. But then again I am gearing myself more towards my art photography and phasing out my glamour and fashion. So, that should get rid of some of the issue. Dec 13 06 02:01 pm Link Guys what you are saying is true. But you are in the industry so you have a different judgement. Now try to take a place of a person who have only hear about all these GWC stories (AND THERE ARE A LOT!!!!!) out there. So for them it is hard to make a discression. Dec 13 06 03:00 pm Link As a mother of a minor model here on MM, I'll offer up my two cents ;o) First off.. we need to remember that everyone perceives things in differing ways - and here on the net.. one's interpretation is often more than a little skewed. Any model - no matter her age needs to understand there are very good photographers that shoot nudes. (this is where perception comes in) Some models view "nudes" as inappropriate.. when they truly are not. What is sad, is that the adult in the picture seems to be more narrow minded than the minor. Sure, I checked out your profile, your 18+ images are tasteful .. I'm just not seeing why her mother decided that just because you have obviously shot nudes, she would prefer you not shoot her daughter.. one has NOTHING to do with the other.. unless of course, that is the point of the shoot. It's her loss.. and quite honestly.. I doubt she'll go far in this business with such limitations. Keep shooting! Tracy Dec 13 06 05:23 pm Link I'm not comfortable with nudity and I don't put other models down for doing nudity. Perhaps she really didn't want to model for you and she didn't have the heart to tell you so she had her mother do it for her? And in all honesty her mother does have the right to tell her who to work with or who not to work with until she is 18. Even if her mother sees nudity as wrong that's really their business and no one elses. Or maybe she just sent you that message and pretended to be her mom. I've seen that happen a lot although not in the modeling business. It's really no different then if you have to contact a models manager in order to contact her- the manager usually has permission to decide if and when she/he can shoot with someone. Dec 13 06 09:32 pm Link and it's not like your portfolio is nothing but nudity. The nudity you do have is nothing I would consider to be distasteful or gross..... hmmm.... Dec 13 06 09:37 pm Link Madcitychel wrote: Kindly have a look at my portfolio and tell me if that is the sort of work that would be produced by a "GWC". Dec 19 06 07:03 am Link FaceReality wrote: Firstly, the warning I wrote to the model is completely irrelevant to the issue I am trying to discuss in this thread. Dec 19 06 07:07 am Link Miles Chandler wrote: "You don't present yourself as a professional . . . or say anything to separate you from a GWC." - Dec 19 06 07:34 am Link Not to name anyone specifically but there is definitely reasons for the mother being uncomfortable.. especially if she has browsed the forums here any.. there is one photographer that posts about nothing but women... himself being aroused.. and taking pictures while aroused... I think that is a little unprofessional and part of the reason the mother is concerned... Some people make other people look bad.. if you know what I mean Dec 19 06 07:38 am Link Melvin Moten Jr wrote: Melvin, please don't tell me that you are going to allow yourself to fall victim to that whole "underage, under-18 models are trouble" scare?! Dec 19 06 07:40 am Link I certainly can understand your reasoning for being annoyed with mom being a photographer myself. However you must understand when it comes to minors the parent or guardian ALWAYS has the final say in these matters. Having nude or partially nude photos in your port will always set off warning lights for a parent. It really doesn't matter what type of photos you were planning for this young lady it's the implied intent that matters to parents. Sadly if you add all the negative images which have been thrust upon the photographic industry lately and the idea that all photographers are rapists and murderers it just makes things worse for the ligitmate photographer. Dealing with minors directly is never a good proposition. I've had minors contact me a couple time here on MM but my immediate response is to have their parents contact me before any conversation can proceed. I heard back from one parent all the others just faded away like the dreams of stardom in a little girls mind. Dec 19 06 07:52 am Link JAY carreon wrote: So you want to argue/debate about people being judgmental and prejudice? Dec 19 06 07:56 am Link Rick Jolly wrote: But I WANT to argue/debate about it! YOU get over it and move on! Dec 19 06 10:10 am Link |
