Garry k wrote:

and what if the images that they are displaying are 10 years old ?

Ignore their look in old photos. Accept their ability to pose and the expressions they give in the old photos. This demonstrates their experience level. Their look can be based on the response to "Do you have any recent images I can see?" Then tell them why you require such. Asking for recent nudes will get you blocked, but you should be able to decide from a bikini shot or similar. Most have Facebook/Instagram accounts where you can see recent images.

Their age is but a number. You stated this is not a commercial shoot, so it is entirely their current look, not some number on the profile versus their ID. I only am concern about actual age if a underage model is trying to represent herself as 18+  Going the other direction is not an issue. If a 50 year old looks great, why do I care? Plenty of gorgeous older women, and plenty of unattractive ones much younger.

Sending a model away because her license says 28 but her profile says 24 is as insulting as having a scale in your studio and rejecting them for being 3 pounds over her profile listed weight. Clothes are not sized by age, and weight can be carried in different spots. If you need someone Size 2 to fit into that small dress, reject them if they can't fit into it, but let them know that is the requirement before they show up. Not all size 2 dresses will fit nicely on ladies who are a size 2.

I believe if you are rejecting models based on profile numbers, your confirmation of the shoot needs to state those conditions they need to meet on the day of the shoot.

Garry k wrote:
So when does distorting the truth become too much for You ?

When they marked Sex as F, and they drop their panties and have a penis larger than me.

Garry k wrote:
And why should a Photogapher have have to verify with a Model that She is what she claims to be and her most " recent " pictures reflect that ?

If your concept requires something, verifying those requirements is reasonable. Models cut their hair, dye their hair, gain/lose weight, bloat, get pimples. Do they keep their profile and portfolios up to date? Perhaps not to the minute. Verify. Is MM their only modeling profile? Maybe they've updated others, but not MM yet. Maybe it skipped their mind. Maybe they did not understand you required a blonde with very long hair, when they confirmed your shoot, and decided the red pixie look was right for them or another gig that asked for that look. Verify.

Yes, major changes, you can feel it is the duty of the model to tell you; however, if you asked for a model to stand in the middle of the field (or on white seamless paper), the model might not think her appearance changes are significant to the shoot. Verify.

If your offer/booking was clear:

Model 18 and 2 months to 21 years 2 months and 24 days,
between 5'7" and 5'8 1/4",
weighing 7 stones to 7.2 stones,
with strawberry blonde hair to the shoulders,
shoe size women's 6.5 US, etc

Then you have every right to cancel the shoot with you discover she is really 21 years and 3 months old or her hair fails to touch her shoulders. But is she has size 6.5 US wide, you did not request narrow or normal.

How difficult is it to verify the requirement for your shoot? Ask. If you are concerned about old portfolio pics, ask for a recent look.

How many models post retouched images? How many models look completely different walking into a studio versus stepping out of the H/MUA chair? Heck, how many models wear fake eye lashes? Use wigs? Or posted an image that the photographer photoshopped purple eyes?

If you have specific requirements, it is on you to ask about them rather than trusting years old information on a profile.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
1. What's wrong with stating the age (range would be cool), that one falls into looks wise? Depending on the MUA etc, i can look 25 or I can look 40something..

2. What's wrong with asking for a cell selfie straight to your own device when booking a shoot, thus avoiding all time issues with y'all's pre shoot dates and broken dreams when the model "grossly misrepresented herself" in her port... Although that's the work the person is clearly capable of.

I dont have a probelm with a Model listing her real age in her bio and stating the age range she feels she can represent . THats an honest approach

Within a casting call that nets over 100 responses from Models ( like my last casting call when i visited LA ) it can be a lot of extra unnecssary work for a photographer havinig to verify the exact ages , heights . sizes and weights of each Model who responds ... If a Model is serious about work they should present themselves as accurately as possible here on MM ( yes its fine to have older photos in ones portfolio but they should not be presented as new work . And if they are old photos newly being displayed it is quite honest to mention the actual date they were taken in the caption )

Garry k wrote:

I dont have a probelm with a Model listing her real age in her bio and stating the age range she feels she can represent . THats an honest approach

Within a casting call that nets over 100 responses from Models ( like my last casting call when i visited LA ) it can be a lot of extra unnecssary work for a photographer havinig to verify the exact ages , heights . sizes and weights of each Model who responds ... If a Model is serious about work they should present themselves as accurately as possible here on MM ( yes its fine to have older photos in ones portfolio but they should not be presented as new work . And if they are old photos newly being displayed it is quite honest to mention the actual date they were taken in the caption )

True, but you're also expecting every "model" here to be professional and to understand how to run this as a business (which then brings out the lovely folk who think if it's about making money, it cannot possibly be good art ), while most chickies will probably be doing this for a bit of funsies and side funds, and are (evidently) absolutely not bothered with correct stats etc.

If you want a business person to work with you, I suggest you stick with agency folk to avoid having to deal with the common mortals.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
True, but you're also expecting every "model" here to be professional and to understand how to run this as a business (which then brings out the lovely folk who think if it's about making money, it cannot possibly be good art ), while most chickies will probably be doing this for a bit of funsies and side funds, and are (evidently) absolutely not bothered with correct stats etc.

If you want a business person to work with you, I suggest you stick with agency folk to avoid having to deal with the common mortals.

Umm - News Flash ...Agencies lie on behalf of thier Models too with respect to such things as Age . Height and Weight


Expecting someone to be truthful about thier age is more a simple matter of honesty than it is professionalism

Garry k wrote:

Umm - News Flash ...Agencies lie on behalf of thier Models too with respect to such things as Age . Height and Weight


Expecting someone to be truthful about thier age is more a simple matter of honesty than it is professionalism

I get carded a lot.
Since you're supposed to have the model show ID anyway....

Garry k wrote:
Umm - News Flash ...Agencies lie on behalf of thier Models too with respect to such things as Age . Height and Weight
Expecting someone to be truthful about thier age is more a simple matter of honesty than it is professionalism

Umm - New Flash ... not all people are honest or professional. Further, they do not care. Worse yet, they are NOT GOING TO CARE.

I know I don't.

My experience is that we will meet a few special people in our lives, people we can trust. If we are lucky, those people can become friends. I treasure my friends.

Unrealistic expectations are as much a waste of everybody's time as human dishonesty. Ponder that, it won't change.
People won't change either, at least not simply because you think they should.

It ain't pretty but it's real.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4ef7oqiuYU

Edited to add:
And yes, I get that you are hoping to bring a positive change to our Universe.
The expression "Pushing jelly up a hill with a rope" comes to mind...

Shadow Dancer wrote:

Umm - New Flash ... not all people are honest or professional. Further, they do not care. Worse yet, they are NOT GOING TO CARE.

I know I don't.

My experience is that we will meet a few special people in our lives, people we can trust. If we are lucky, those people can become friends. I treasure my friends.

Unrealistic expectations are as much a waste of everybody's time as human dishonesty. Ponder that, it won't change.
People won't change either, at least not simply because you think they should.

It ain't pretty but it's real.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4ef7oqiuYU

Edited to add:
And yes, I get that you are hoping to bring a positive change to our Universe.
The expression "Pushing jelly up a hill with a rope" comes to mind...

To tell you the truth MM used to be quite good in my area for finding the types of Models I seek -Female Fashion Orientated Models with appropriate age ,height and weight ... I don’t recall ever having a local Model misrepresent themselves to me ( except a few that really thought they were 5’9 and their 3 inch heels accounted for some of that height —but that was years ago now

The Types of Models I seek on MM still exist in the larger Centers ie Toronto , New York and Los Angeles ( which I visit )and the vast majority of them appear honest about their specs .... but there have been a few bad apples

ShotbyRon wrote:
I really think you're making this out to be a much better deal than it needs to be. I've met plenty of gorgeous models who are well into their late 20's and mid 30's. And I see plenty of 18-22 models who are good, but they scare my dogs. Age is just a number. Plenty of people look 5, 10, 15 or even 20 years younger than they really are. But too many people get caught up on a number. Hence why they feel the need to lie. If they look good and have a solid port.. I really don't see the issue.

In fact, the model who is pictured on my main photo is..well. I won't give you her age. But she isn't in her early or mid 20's. And she was amazing to work with. Great personality and drop dead gorgeous. It would have been a shame if I skipped past her because of her age. (And I met her at a group event)

I am guessing she didn’t tell you she was 21

Garry k wrote:
To tell you the truth MM used to be quite good in my area for finding the types of Models I seek -Female Fashion Orientated Models with appropriate age ,height and weight ... I don’t recall ever having a local Model misrepresent themselves to me ( except a few that really thought they were 5’9 and their 3 inch heels accounted for some of that height —but that was years ago now

The Types of Models I seek on MM still exist in the larger Centers ie Toronto , New York and Los Angeles ( which I visit )and the vast majority of them appear honest about their specs .... but there have been a few bad apples

The operative phrases being "MM used to be quite good in my area" and "vast majority of them appear honest about their specs".

So, everything is pretty much just as I stated. We've all seen models with "interesting" stats (my favorite are the ones who weigh more than 1,000 pounds!!!!), we've all seen the togs who tout "25 years professional experience" and list an extravegant accumulation of expensive gear then post fake magazine covers and humdrum images devoid of inspiration and/or craft.

We've also seen spectacular beauties who live in Podunk, miles from civilization and young photographer just starting out that instinctively have that vision and creativity from the get go.

I exist in the world of music mostly, have friends who own $5,000 guitars, have been playing for 40 years and can barely get through a simple 3 chord song. If they are happy, I am happy for them.
I've seen a couple of 14-15 year olds at open mic night that sound fantastic and are writing good songs.

None of this is unusual at all. If we are honest, for the most part we are not honest. More often than not, no evil is intended.
Not posting correct information may be a result of cell phone auto-correcting, misreading or misunderstanding a poorly designed interface, neglect, distraction, lack of correct imformation, etc.

Whatever the reason, if something is important to you then all due dilligence is your responsibility 100%. Nothing in this thread changes that one iota.

Garry k wrote:

I am guessing she didn’t tell you she was 21

As long as she isn't under 18. I don't care what age she tells me she is.

Shadow Dancer wrote:
The operative phrases being "MM used to be quite good in my area" and "vast majority of them appear honest about their specs".

So, everything is pretty much just as I stated. We've all seen models with "interesting" stats (my favorite are the ones who weigh more than 1,000 pounds!!!!), we've all seen the togs who tout "25 years professional experience" and list an extravegant accumulation of expensive gear then post fake magazine covers and humdrum images devoid of inspiration and/or craft.

We've also seen spectacular beauties who live in Podunk, miles from civilization and young photographer just starting out that instinctively have that vision and creativity from the get go.

I exist in the world of music mostly, have friends who own $5,000 guitars, have been playing for 40 years and can barely get through a simple 3 chord song. If they are happy, I am happy for them.
I've seen a couple of 14-15 year olds at open mic night that sound fantastic and are writing good songs.

None of this is unusual at all. If we are honest, for the most part we are not honest. More often than not, no evil is intended.
Not posting correct information may be a result of cell phone auto-correcting, misreading or misunderstanding a poorly designed interface, neglect, distraction, lack of correct imformation, etc.

Whatever the reason, if something is important to you then all due dilligence is your responsibility 100%. Nothing in this thread changes that one iota.

Sorry - Your $5000 guitar  / bad playing analogy lost me
The issue i am speaking about is gross  misresprentation of age . weight and height
All quantifiable and pertaining to the persons physical state of being

Garry k wrote:
I am noticiing that Some existing Female Models on this site appear to be getting Younger

Some even had startet using MM as a model at the age of 12 and had uploaded nude images at the age of 13... ;-)

This may not be a problem for some Photographers but it is for Me - As I expect to shoot with what is represented in a Models portfolio

And since I am not one for preshoot meetings ( edit ) having found that most models are far to busy for them

More than 1 Model has been disappointed when they have shown up for a shoot and I have turned them down at that point for not being what they stated in their bio or iwhat they have represented in their portfolio

Maybe MM should introduce two categories of information:

# real age
# visual age

(Maybe even three categories... # mental age)

Garry k wrote:

Sorry - Your $5000 guitar  / bad playing analogy lost me
The issue i am speaking about is gross  misresprentation of age . weight and height
All quantifiable and pertaining to the persons physical state of being

"Sorry - Your $5000 guitar  / bad playing analogy lost me " Yeah, that's a real tricky one...

It is an analogy to photographers who own lots of nice equipment, have been taking photographs for decades and have not produced anything interesting. Or ego run amok if you prefer. If they have great work, you see it. If models have great work, you see that. If it is recent, you see that.

Choosing models by their stats makes zero sense to me. How will you enforce compliance?

Simple answer, you cannot enforce compliance and a solution is not forthcoming.
Or, as they say "You can wish in one hand and poop in the other and see which one gets the fullest."

Shadow Dancer wrote:

"Sorry - Your $5000 guitar  / bad playing analogy lost me " Yeah, that's a real tricky one...

It is an analogy to photographers who own lots of nice equipment, have been taking photographs for decades and have not produced anything interesting. Or ego run amok if you prefer. If they have great work, you see it. If models have great work, you see that. If it is recent, you see that.

Choosing models by their stats makes zero sense to me. How will you enforce compliance?

Simple answer, you cannot enforce compliance and a solution is not forthcoming.
Or, as they say "You can wish in one hand and poop in the other and see which one gets the fullest."

I am not sure if this guitar analogy of yours is some sort of backhanded critique of my work - but if it is please consdier me amused  ( and for the record in my 15 plus years of Modelling Photographry - my camera of choice has been the Canon Rebel and I am not thinking of changing gear any time soon lol )

As for your so called enforcement of compliance ( ensuring that Models really do represent what they claim to be - age . height and size wise ) I guess what i have learned over the past year or so - is to ask for IG verification of such things before committing to the shoot . Ive only been active on IG for the last year and before that I was pretty dependent on the what was stated and displayed in Models profiles on MM for making decisions on whether to shoot with a Model outside of my local scene
Before i started doiing these secondary checks on IG - I did have a couple of situations Stateside where Models arrived for the shoot looking nothing like their MM profiles here ( ie much older , heavier etc ) and I just simply cancelled the shoot on the spot ( with an explanation of course ) Such a waste of time though for everyone involved

I am encouraged to see that one of these Models ( who misrepresented themsleves to me last year in LA ) has updated her stats and portfolio here to reflect her current age , weight . appearance etc

However when I see some Photographers here dismissing entirely my concern about this issue - I can see how some Models might think they can get away with such misrepresentation ...

And of course there are those Photographers who appear to be fully content if the Model is simply the same gender as they had hoped for

Garry k wrote:
And of course there are those Photographers who appear to be fully content if the Model is simply the same gender as they had hoped for

As long as she will take off her clothes.

Garry k wrote:
I am not sure if this guitar analogy of yours is some sort of backhanded critique of my work - but if it is please consdier me amused  ( and for the record in my 15 plus years of Modelling Photographry - my camera of choice has been the Canon Rebel and I am not thinking of changing gear any time soon lol )

As for your so called enforcement of compliance ( ensuring that Models really do represent what they claim to be - age . height and size wise ) I guess what i have learned over the past year or so - is to ask for IG verification of such things before committing to the shoot . Ive only been active on IG for the last year and before that I was pretty dependent on the what was stated and displayed in Models profiles on MM for making decisions on whether to shoot with a Model outside of my local scene
Before i started doiing these secondary checks on IG - I did have a couple of situations Stateside where Models arrived for the shoot looking nothing like their MM profiles here ( ie much older , heavier etc ) and I just simply cancelled the shoot on the spot ( with an explanation of course ) Such a waste of time though for everyone involved

I am encouraged to see that one of these Models ( who misrepresented themsleves to me last year in LA ) has updated her stats and portfolio here to reflect her current age , weight . appearance etc

However when I see some Photographers here dismissing entirely my concern about this issue - I can see how some Models might think they can get away with such misrepresentation ...

And of course there are those Photographers who appear to be fully content if the Model is simply the same gender as they had hoped for

Certainly not a reference to you, I've never seen you talk much about equipment at all, nor boast about your prowess. Humble goes down easy, you are never overbearing.

Those to whom I refer will boast of decades of experience as a phototgrapher and usually list at least their best gear on their profile and sometimes it appears that they list everything they own. When you look at their work you wonder why they posted such things as the work is not good. A reference point as I've seen quite a few.

Simply trying to inject some balance into a thread posted in the modeling forum that once again singles out models and "their unseemly behavior" when the fact is that models are certainly not the only participants on MM who have inaccurate profiles/portfolios.

As I stated, due diligence is up to you and you alone. Your response regarding IG indicates that you know this and do your research. That is exactly what I am suggesting. It seems to me that your real world response makes the entire thread rather pointless. That's really my point, that everyone would be better off not complaining about things that they cannot change.

Which I suppose applies to myself since I am complaining about photographers posting threads in the models forum that can be (and are) construed by models as hostile and yet photographers will continue to engage in this clueless behavior and even defend it despite it ultimately being self-defeating.

We are here to make connections, no? How does finding fault with a group you want to make connections with further anything? That is my point and nothing more.