Personality Imaging wrote:
I just wish that they would sell it instead of leasing it so that I could buy it.

Where is the "like button"?

I have bought their software suite every year or sometimes every other year.  The rental model just doesn't makes sense to me.  But I guess I am on the loosing side of this.

ivancoart wrote:
I'm just curious about this - have you ever used cracked Photoshop? It's a common practice in Russia and neighboring (post-Soviet) countries.

Russia, China, and various other countries do not have a strong tradition of the rule of law, so it is unsurprising that copyright and intellectual property are not respected.

ivancoart wrote:
I'm just curious about this - have you ever used cracked Photoshop? It's a common practice in Russia and neighboring (post-Soviet) countries. I know that in Europe and the USA the use of pirated software is considered a crime. But in the countries mentioned above - nobody cares^) It's another secret for local retouchers to reduce the costs, by the way:)

Is the use of pirated software widespread in YOUR country?

That may be a good reason not to use many Russian (and neighboring post-Soviet country) retouchers, assuming it's as wide-spread as you indicate. Why would any photographer in their right mind provide original raw files of their work to someone who spits on copyright.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
OP, rather then use stolen software why not buy a older version of PS and or use free programs like GIMP or others.   I looked at your work as a photographer as well.   Solid stuff and could be done with free programs like GIMP or some of the other opensource or on-line free photo programs.   Think this way.   How would you feel if someone used your work without paying you.

I just looked online and I can't find anywhere reputable that sells even CS6.  I'm guessing he company doesn't want people using older cheaper software that still do the job they want people to spend money.

R.EYE.R wrote:
One of Adobe's managers told my friend once that they appreciated piracy. It's a part of their strategy.

Your friend or that Adobe manager is on crack.

Laura Bello wrote:

I just looked online and I can't find anywhere reputable that sells even CS6.  I'm guessing he company doesn't want people using older cheaper software that still do the job they want people to spend money.

http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Photoshop-C … B007R0RKPO

Chuckarelei wrote:
Your friend or that Adobe manager is on crack.

Cognitive dissonance is not easy to deal with, I know..

ivancoart wrote:
wow, so many answers! and who controls the software usage in the US, for instance? do the police come to your house and ask: "show your laptop and the license for all the software you've got!"?? looks a bit funny. I think companies can be controlled, but not individuals.

The changes are not direct, but used as an excuse in a long term programme.
For example: Adobe can't publicly endorse piracy since it would conflict with the nature of their business, but they can implement lax copy protection or none at all in order to make it easier for people to download and use unlicensed versions.
This is just like a heroin from a street dealer - first shot is always free.
Just like that, Photoshop became industry standard not only due to the professionals using it, but also because many are proficient in it. And guess what they are going to recommend? And as a legal business you do have to own a valid license or else.


And then it comes to a move where you can't (well, there will always be a way to do so, just not as easy) procure a free copy as software is published virtually, through a cloud and/or vendor locked. Same with OS, trusted platform, code signing, etc.
Basically, slowly and surely you are locked into a product without rival and where your money are siphoned slowly to create illusion of affordability and where your data is stored in clouds and available to censorship and content filtering.
This gives unparallelled freedom to business owners to declare you being a threat to national interests should you want to buy a disk array to store your data offline - theoretically speaking. Look at TPP - the main framework is there already.
Police at your door to take away your computer should you download torrents is just to make headlines to scare lemmings into obedience, so forget about this.
You should also remember that psychologically, forbidden fruit tastes best. This does explain current piracy situation at any rate.

If you want to know the principle - lurkmore.to is your friend:
On copyright: http://lurkmore.to/%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%BF%D … 1%81%D1%82
There is one extremely interesting article there somewhere describing just the mechanics of this all, but, well....you should lurk more yourself..

R.EYE.R wrote:
forbidden fruit tastes best. This does explain current piracy situation at any rate.

I have another explanation, just compare the salaries in post-Soviet countries and in the US, for instance, where this software is produced. The price is the same for everyone, isn't it? But the average monthly salaries differ in 10 times! 300$ vs 3, 000$. Someone above showed the link to PS6 for 1,800$. So, would you buy it for 18, 000$? I'm pretty sure, inadequate price is the MAIN reason of piracy.

Is the use of pirated software widespread in YOUR country?

It is widespread in the whole world. Let me tell you why:

I haven't read all replies but I notice people defending intellectual property. Etymologically the word intellect means "the capacity for reasoning truth". Property comes from proper which originally means "adapted to some purpose, appropriate".

After many years of licensing digital content I think the whole concept of intellectual property is a big misunderstanding as well as the general concept of property. We are born in this world with nothing and leave with nothing, so even our bodies are disposable. So what is property? Just an idea in hour mind, nothing factual. We are much worse than the animals defending their territory. We make wars and kill each other because we have divided the world into mine and yours. That is our capacity for reasoning truth.

Almost all modern commercial software has built in surveillance/telemetry features which "anonymously help in improving the product" (read: track your actions in order to make more money from you and others like you). Sometimes they give you an option to opt out but in fact you are still sending info to them. They even make a lot of hardware this way already (smartphones for example). And as these companies are the strong of the day, they push for laws which protect their own financial interest, so they can make more and more. Then if you don't play by their rules - you are enforced to, in court, in jail etc. They will chase you all over the world if you don't play their game (remember Snowden?)

So you work hard for years to make some money to afford a good computer or another device. Then you also pay for a software like that. Then this software with its spyware features starts tracking and reporting you through this same computer which is supposed to be your own. Whose property is the computer you paid for? Whose property are your own mouse moves and keyboard activity? Whose property is your life? Google tracks you and creates your psychological profile, Facebook tracks you, Adobe tracks you etc. You are not an artist any more - you are just a tool user, a cog in the wheel of a money generation machine working for the benefit of a few.

Personally I prefer free software (free as in freedom defined by fsf.org). I no longer connect to the Internet from anything different than Linux, running free software. Not because I am doing anything inappropriate but because I feel it inappropriate to support a system which exploits humans. Of course even that doesn't solve the problem because if it is not done by everyone, it is a small change only. Example: you may have your own mail server but as soon as you send to a [email protected] - the matrix still has you.

So the problem is not merely "do you use pirated Photoshop" but it is much deeper. Piracy is just a reaction to the actual issue.

ivancoart wrote:
I have another explanation, just compare the salaries in post-Soviet countries and in the US, for instance, where this software is produced. The price is the same for everyone, isn't it? But the average monthly salaries differ in 10 times! 300$ vs 3, 000$. Someone above showed the link to PS6 for 1,800$. So, would you buy it for 18, 000$? I'm pretty sure, inadequate price is the MAIN reason of piracy.

That too. Mind you, most young people in west can't afford that either. True, there are student discount programmes in place, but you won't get that noticeable discount.

Most anti-piracy arguments are based in fallacy of "developers/artists deserve the money for their hard work".
In past, I was a producer for Polygram. My contract as producer gave me 3% of royalties, my contract as artist - 7%. The other 90%? heh..I have seen where that money went - mad parties, VIP booths, champagne and hostesses, designer furniture, cars....not for artists though.
Adobe? Not much different. The original creator of Photoshop got his money 100 times over. Now the bloated corporation has many mouths to feed: PR, Finance, Marketing, Strategy, Planning etc, and each with a ton of people who do sod all on daily basis. All coding is outsourced to India where coders get about a bowl of rice for a line of code (crudely speaking).
Look up "Indian Code" on Lurkmore and weep. Besides, you will see why Photoshop is a bloatware.

Counterargument would be "great to create jobs to keep economy going" but the truth is: it is just fuelling consumerism society where people earn just to spend nonsense imposed on them - new cameras with 0.000001 marginal bell and whistle improvements, 1' larger TV set, 1W more powerful microwave, wifi enabled toaster in shape of a penis....etc...
http://lurkmore.to/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D1%89%D … 0%B8%D1%8F

So it boils down to success being measured by how many people you screw over and how many Bentleys are parked in your garage..plus amount of Supermodels on your D.
Want to support this? Purchase original and post photos of your original license agreements on Instagram. Bob's your uncle.

Funny how people praise George Carlin, but fail to take to his word on day to day basis..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4hAKNwzSJc

And massive +1000000 to George!

ivancoart wrote:
I'm just curious about this - have you ever used cracked Photoshop? It's a common practice in Russia and neighboring (post-Soviet) countries. I know that in Europe and the USA the use of pirated software is considered a crime. But in the countries mentioned above - nobody cares^) It's another secret for local retouchers to reduce the costs, by the way:)

Is the use of pirated software widespread in YOUR country?

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:
That may be a good reason not to use many Russian (and neighboring post-Soviet country) retouchers, assuming it's as wide-spread as you indicate. Why would any photographer in their right mind provide original raw files of their work to someone who spits on copyright.

Its pretty simple. You are either a thief, or you're not.

You can rationalize it any way you choose, but if you are using software you didnt pay for, you are a thief.

Would you be "ok" with some one stealing your services because the price was not to their liking?

We have criminals here too. Just because they exist is no reason to join them.

ivancoart wrote:
I know that in Europe and the USA the use of pirated software is considered a crime.

By the way: In the Germany it's not illegal to use "pirated software". It's illegal to copy software without the copyright holder's permission. Using it is not illegal as long you do not copy the software. (Usually this happens when you install software. But if you are not the one who copied it you cannot be prosecuted just for using it.)

But in the countries mentioned above - nobody cares^) It's another secret for local retouchers to reduce the costs, by the way:)

The cost for software is rather irrelevant for professional retouchers. The important cost factors are the required work time and the necessary per hour income. When you live in a country where the cost of living is just one fifth of the cost of living in Europe or the US you perfectly can get along with revenues that are just one fifth, too.

Personality Imaging wrote:
I just wish that they would sell it instead of leasing it so that I could buy it.

+1000

rfordphotos wrote:
Its pretty simple. You are either a thief, or you're not. You can rationalize it any way you choose, but if you are using software you didnt pay for, you are a thief.
Would you be "ok" with some one stealing your services because the price was not to their liking?
We have criminals here too. Just because they exist is no reason to join them.

On the one hand, you are right. On the other hand, read my comment about inadequate price in comparison to an average monthly salary. You're from the US, great! Be honest and answer, would you buy Photoshop for 18, 000$? (it's the same big money as 1,800$ for a citizen of post-Soviet countries). So, WOULD YOU prefer to starve about six months to get this software for such inadequate price? I really doubt.

TomFRohwer wrote:
When you live in a country where the cost of living is just one fifth of the cost of living in Europe or the US you perfectly can get along with revenues that are just one fifth, too.

that's what I'm talking about. so, it's much easier to be competitive and to set lower prices for the same work.

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:
That may be a good reason not to use many Russian (and neighboring post-Soviet country) retouchers, assuming it's as wide-spread as you indicate.

sounds like discrimination based on nationality!
you can't know for sure, pirates live everywhere (as it was mentioned above in other comments). to my mind, the quality of work should be the main factor of collaboration or non-collaboration with a particular retoucher.

rfordphotos wrote:
Its pretty simple. You are either a thief, or you're not.

If I install a software on my computer and it starts "gathering user data for the purposes of improving the service" and sending it to a company - this is called spyware. So who is the thief?

You can rationalize it any way you choose, but if you are using software you didnt pay for, you are a thief.

What is the rationality behind a trade in which you pay and your privacy is being abused? Unless it is free software (free as in freedom, not as in price) you really don't know what exactly you are installing.

Would you be "ok" with some one stealing your services because the price was not to their liking?

The question is - are you ok with paying a company which can install any software on your computer at any time without even asking letting you know? This is exactly what Windows does for example. In case you don't know here is an interesting fact about new versions of Windows: if you decide to encrypt your file system, after the encryption completes the encryption key (the actual protection) is automatically sent to Microsoft "so that it is secure and you can never loose it". Are you "ok" with the fox guarding the chicken?

We have criminals here too. Just because they exist is no reason to join them.

It is quite easy to be cynical but if we forget for a moment the superficial satisfaction it gives to the self and really look into the facts you will know that by paying taxes one supports war: production of weapons, maintaining international conflicts, poverty in other countries etc. IOW you are supporting the biggest criminals who take care to keep you satisfied and silent, so you can elect them again. Who is joining who? The poor guy from India who can't afford a PS license and downloads a torrent, or the rich photographer who won't take the camera out of the bag for less than $5000 (example) and takes pride to shoot the latest fancy millionaire superstar.

Try to explain how valuable a photo service or Photoshop license is to a kid who has one meal a day (if lucky) and has never seen a TV in its life and perhaps never will. These same people who tell everyone "if you don't pay you are a criminal" are the ones maintaining deliberately the poverty in certain areas of the world. Then these same superstars take pride in giving "charity" to the poor of the 3rd world. The very fact that we have even invented a word for it - "the 3rd world" - is quite derogatory and arrogant.

So again - who is joining who and how do we solve this? Applause the superstar on the red carpet? Give thousands of likes for the next official spyware release?

We are programmed from childhood that this system is correct and abuse anyone who doesn't fit into it, call them "a thief" etc. But as you see it is not so simple.

rfordphotos wrote:
Its pretty simple. You are either a thief, or you're not. You can rationalize it any way you choose, but if you are using software you didnt pay for, you are a thief.
Would you be "ok" with some one stealing your services because the price was not to their liking?
We have criminals here too. Just because they exist is no reason to join them.

ivancoart wrote:
On the one hand, you are right. On the other hand, read my comment about inadequate price in comparison to an average monthly salary. You're from the US, great! Be honest and answer, would you buy Photoshop for 18, 000$? (it's the same big money as 1,800$ for a citizen of post-Soviet countries). So, WOULD YOU prefer to starve about six months to get this software for such inadequate price? I really doubt.

Either you are a thief, or you are not. When I could not afford to use Photoshop (when I was first starting out) I found alternative software (GIMP in this case) to use legally. As I said, it is black and white- you are either a thief, or you are not. If you are not paying for the software you are using, you are stealing it. ANY excuse you try and use for stealing it is ONLY rationalization for being a thief

Answer MY question--- Would YOU be OK with some one stealing your services because they felt YOUR price was too high?

I would like to drive a Rolls Royce, and have a 100 inch TV in my mansion--- but since I cant afford to buy those things, I live within my means rather than become a thief.

George Anchev wrote:
If I install a software on my computer and it starts "gathering user data for the purposes of improving the service" and sending it to a company - this is called spyware. So who is the thief?

What is the rationality behind a trade in which you pay and your privacy is being abused? Unless it is free software (free as in freedom, not as in price) you really don't know what exactly you are installing.

The question is - are you ok with paying a company which can install any software on your computer at any time without even asking letting you know? This is exactly what Windows does for example. In case you don't know here is an interesting fact about new versions of Windows: if you decide to encrypt your file system, after the encryption completes the encryption key (the actual protection) is automatically sent to Microsoft "so that it is secure and you can never loose it". Are you "ok" with the fox guarding the chicken?

It is quite easy to be cynical but if we forget for a moment the superficial satisfaction it gives to the self and really look into the facts you will know that by paying taxes one supports war: production of weapons, maintaining international conflicts, poverty in other countries etc. IOW you are supporting the biggest criminals who take care to keep you satisfied and silent, so you can elect them again. Who is joining who? The poor guy from India who can't afford a PS license and downloads a torrent, or the rich photographer who won't take the camera out of the bag for less than $5000 (example) and takes pride to shoot the latest fancy millionaire superstar.

Try to explain how valuable a photo service or Photoshop license is to a kid who has one meal a day (if lucky) and has never seen a TV in its life and perhaps never will. These same people who tell everyone "if you don't pay you are a criminal" are the ones maintaining deliberately the poverty in certain areas of the world. Then these same superstars take pride in giving "charity" to the poor of the 3rd world. The very fact that we have even invented a word for it - "the 3rd world" - is quite derogatory and arrogant.

So again - who is joining who and how do we solve this? Applause the superstar on the red carpet? Give thousands of likes for the next official spyware release?

We are programmed from childhood that this system is correct and abuse anyone who doesn't fit into it, call them "a thief" etc. But as you see it is not so simple.

Nice try. If you dont like certain software, dont use it. Your paranoia does not give you or anyone else an excuse to be a thief.  Blaming me for all the ills in the world wont change the fact that you are either a thief or not. If you steal something you are a thief. Its not complicated, and it doesnt have a damn thing to do with your situation or where you live. If you use a service or product you are not paying for, you are a thief.

And, you are right. I was brought up to understand the difference between right and wrong. I was taught from the very earliest moments that stealing was wrong. You can call me judgemental or whatever you choose, but it really is a very black and white thing. You are either a thief, or you are not.

rfordphotos wrote:
Nice try.

I am not trying anything. You misunderstood.

If you dont like certain software, dont use it.

Thank you so much.

Your paranoia does not give you or anyone else an excuse to be a thief.

I wonder - do you really talk to people like that F2F? Putting your derogatory labels on everything they say even if they didn't say it?

It is not my paranoia. I am pointing actual facts. I am not paranoid about these facts. I just consider them inappropriate and hence I am not willing to contribute to them. Non-free software can not be trusted. It is closed. The fact that many people use it does not make it less closed. If you believe that just because you pay for it it does not have ethical flaws, that is just like believing you will go to heaven if you pay to the church.

That doesn't mean I am advocating piracy or theft. I do buy software licenses. I simply don't recommend connecting non-FOSS software to a network or giving it access to sensitive data. I hope you can make the difference. And believe it or not - I also pay when I want to support free software development. But if you prefer to pay to be enslaved - that's up to you. Many others do it anyway.

Blaming me for all the ills in the world wont change the fact that you are either a thief or not. If you steal something you are a thief. Its not complicated, and it doesnt have a damn thing to do with your situation or where you live. If you use a service or product you are not paying for, you are a thief.

If one is self concerned discussion is impossible. I wasn't addressing you personally in my earlier post. This is not a court and I am not blaming anyone of anything. If your desire is to simply think in terms of opposites - thief/no-thief, 0/1 etc, I am afraid you have missed the whole point.

And, you are right. I was brought up to understand the difference between right and wrong. I was taught from the very earliest moments that stealing was wrong. You can call me judgemental or whatever you choose, but it really is a very black and white thing. You are either a thief, or you are not.

Is it right or wrong to put labels on people you don't know? Or even to people you do know? Don't you see the implications of such action? You have been told something by someone else and you repeat it mechanically, like the computer repeats 0 and 1, instead of understanding it yourself. Can you really look at a problem afresh, without imposing your own memories or the opinions of another?

Please understand: I am really not calling you anything. You simply don't want to see the fact that you are actually supporting theft and abuse of human rights by "not being a thief". We all are. The problem is much bigger than buying a software license. I suppose it might be difficult to understand but the facts cannot be changed by labels. Man has invented all kinds of convenient words to justify improper behavior. "Copyright" and "intellectual property" are just 2 examples.

rfordphotos wrote:
Would you be "ok" with some one stealing your services because the price was not to their liking?

We have criminals here too. Just because they exist is no reason to join them.

Questions:

1. Do you see Martin Shkreli as a hero?
2. Do you endorse his operation within legal framework in medicine price hiking ethical?
3. Do you believe laws do not have to be rooted in ethics?
4. Do you believe that laws that are not rooted in ethics are right?
5. If yes, can you still claim that people who break laws that are unethical in their nature criminals?

and finally...
6. Do you remember what USA constitution stands for? ..

rfordphotos wrote:
Its pretty simple. You are either a thief, or you're not.

are you a vegan or a killer?

ivancoart wrote:
are you a vegan or a killer?

Oh, I am a murderous son of a bitch.  But I pay the asking price for the food I "kill", rather than steal it.

This is stupid. You dont want to be told that stealing software is wrong because " well gee, its what everybody does". OK , what ever works for you. Others have used this thread to rave against corporate greed, or capitalism itself. So be it.

I am certainly no saint, but I have gotten this far in life without being a thief. Software piracy is an issue worldwide, it is a personal choice we are all given.

Good luck in your future endeavors!

/and thats it from me.