Shadowscape Studio wrote:
Except for art, hobby, and amatures you will never get an offer from a photographer.  ALL PROFESSIONAL WORK will come from an agency.  Agencies hire models.  Agencies hire photographers.  Then they work together.  The only true professional photographer that hires models are art photographers that work on getting their images in galleries and do not work for customers.

What you said is almost correct... but just to clarify, it's usually the magazine editor and/or art director that chooses what the cover will be. 

Ad layouts and catalogues are usually controlled by an ad agency, P.R. firm, and sometimes even a marketing company. 

A modeling or talent agent usually doesn't have much of a say in which model will be picked... other than the fact that the agency will try to find someone that matches the description of what or who is needed (but there are some exceptions).

Except when shooting for their own purposes (for their own portfolio, stock, or spec), photographers aren't normally involved in the hiring process.

As said before, there are exceptions to the rule, but it doesn't happen to the degree that most people think.

Shadowscape Studio wrote:
Except for art, hobby, and amatures you will never get an offer from a photographer.  ALL PROFESSIONAL WORK will come from an agancy.  Agencies hire models.  Agencies hire photographers.  Then they work together.  The only true professional photographer that hires models are art photographers that work on getting their images in galleries and do not work for customers.

I suppose that there is a sense in which I agree with this, but only a very limited sense. 

1.  Advertising agencies hire models and photographers (as surrogates for their clients).  Model agencies do not hire either models or photographers.

2.  Ad agencies are not involved in hiring models or photographers for magazine covers or editorials.  That is done directly by the publication itself.

Dick Pick wrote:
How to tell the real from the posers? A girl who wants to model asked me how she could tell when offers are from real photographers. Told her to search with Yahoo or whatever and she would find credits for real published fotogs.

I looked myself and found searching for Avedon shows credits but many of those here who I know are real like Christian Behr, Eric Striffler, Shiree, Brian Nelson all come up with only internet clubs and their own blogs just like the amatures here. So how should she tell when someone promises her a cover?

IWICTYHFTPIAHYMMD! ROTFLMAOBT

Making friends wherever I go.

TXPhotog wrote:
2.  Ad agencies are not involved in hiring models or photographers for magazine covers or editorials.  That is done directly by the publication itself.

In a magazine or newspaper, it is the photo editor or art director, who choses the photos to go along with the article. So when i'm contacted by a photo editor or art director to submit specific photos for their publication, I as a photographer don't know and don't have any control over which photos they will choose to publish, I as a photographer can not promise any model working with me that she will make the cover, because I have no say over which of my photo will be used where in the publication.

A publication may ask for a 1/2 dozen photos to several hundred  photos for a larger and more $$$$ photo shoot,  If one of the photos I submit is used for the cover the publication will pay me extra, but I only find this out after I have sent them my photos. 

Photos  used for an ad in a magazine is a different story,  these photos are done by ad agencies who use established pro photographers and  pro models. 

The bottom line is, if a photographer walks up to you and offer you a  garanted cover shot for a mag,  I would be very weery of that photographer!

W.G. Rowland wrote:
My, unprofessional, understanding is that a professional photographer would not be walking up to an unknown, and potential risk for what is a professional venture with capital and reputation riding on it, and offer them the cover of anything..

For pro jobs.. Pros use pros.. And get them from agencies..

not always...a young fresh face is often more suitable than that of a jaded "pro" model.

Im'age NY (INY) wrote:
I just joined VogueAgent... photographers (and models for that matter) can be verified. It's a start

this site looks....slightly less than professional?

TXPhotog wrote:
2.  Ad agencies are not involved in hiring models or photographers for magazine covers or editorials.  That is done directly by the publication itself.

Editorial Stock Photogr wrote:
In a magazine or newspaper, it is the photo editor or art director, who choses the photos to go along with the article. So when i'm contacted by a photo editor or art director to submit specific photos for their publication, I as a photographer don't know and don't have any control over which photos they will choose to publish, I as a photographer can not promise any model working with me that she will make the cover, because I have no say over which of my photo will be used where in the publication.

To a large extent you are both correct but there are still some, limited, exceptions. In my position as a photojournalist and feature writer I would sometimes make advance arrangements for some kind of feature and then engage a model to illustrate it. I have done it with travel and destination features; product features; events stories; and if the model has some particular relevance to the publication even "personality" features on the model themselves.

By the same token I can seldom guarantee anything [such as a cover] beside a guarantee of publication somewhere that I already have an arrangement to publish the material. Though, on occasion, I have seen some of my work published once and then picked up by a similar rag and republished in another country and another language.

One typical job that required a model was a written piece called "Health and Olive Oil" about the historic and current uses of olive oil as applied to the skin - such as for a skin softening beauty treatment and use as a massage oil. The use of olive oil for these purposes goes back to antiquity - at least 3000 years. For that I needed a model to pose nude getting a massage from a second nude model with the product in frame and a particular orientation and crop for the print layout. I just hired them in and custom shot the images.

Another was about police in a certain area harassing nudists on a beach. Again, got one model [an older M] to dress up in a cop suit and a second model [a F] nude being cuffed and "arrested." Custom shot specifically to go with, and illustrate, the story.

So it does happen that a photographer MIGHT need, and directly hire, models, and not only for stock. For both of the two editorial jobs noted above, and a number of others that I've done, NO local agency is willing to supply the models. It isn't a matter of price, either, they just won't do it and refuse outright when asked. Both jobs were done, effectively, with "street castings" of non-models [college students.]

Studio36

studio36uk wrote:
So it does happen that a photographer MIGHT need, and directly hire, models,

Yes it does.  I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.  Rather, I was taking issue with the notion that "the agency" hired the models.  That's not what agencies do.

TXPhotog wrote:
Yes it does.  I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.  Rather, I was taking issue with the notion that "the agency" hired the models.  That's not what agencies do.

And in my case I already had the work sold as well. So it wasn't just spec work like converting a "get the models naked" TFwhatever for the model into a paying job for me.

Studio36

Dick Pick wrote:
How to tell the real from the posers? A girl who wants to model asked me how she could tell when offers are from real photographers. Told her to search with Yahoo or whatever and she would find credits for real published fotogs.

I looked myself and found searching for Avedon shows credits but many of those here who I know are real like Christian Behr, Eric Striffler, Shiree, Brian Nelson all come up with only internet clubs and their own blogs just like the amatures here. So how should she tell when someone promises her a cover?

That's really not a great method.  Nowhere on the Reader's Digest site will I be credited for the illustration I sold them some years back.  I am on the Black+White site (if you can even find that), but it's on a gif and not text, so it's not searchable.  Besides, I'm an amateur not a professional, and only incidentally sell my photography.

What you will find for me are the Nerve.com features, the Stern.de features, tons of stuff I've written and a bunch of reviews of my work   On Google at least.

I'd expect you found about the same for the other folks, right?

I think if you do a search for a well-known photographer you'll mostly find references by others to his work, his own site, maybe a fan site, but few if any direct references from his clients.

BTW, no one here is even in the same universe as Avedon.

Good question.

-Don

photofashion wrote:
not always...a young fresh face is often more suitable than that of a jaded "pro" model.

That still is all dependant on the definition of "pro" and "fresh young face"

Dunno about jaded... but I would consider myself "pro" in so far as the term goes to apply to the fact that 1, I do make money at this job (and yes, it equates to a part time job in terms of hours spent) and 2, my behavior.

Im'age NY (INY) wrote:
I just joined VogueAgent... photographers (and models for that matter) can be verified. It's a start

Couture Imagery wrote:
this site looks....slightly less than professional?

Not sure which one you were looking at, but these two don't inspire confidence!

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu … =117603542

http://vogueagent.com

Curt Burgess wrote:
Not sure which one you were looking at, but these two don't inspire confidence!

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu … =117603542

http://vogueagent.com

Oh CHARMING, it looks like a serious pyramid scam "Sign people up and collect a portion of their fees for life" and faux-agency scam "All photographers who become members are considered 'agents' and will receive regular fees for models whose portfolios they fill" etc etc

W.G. Rowland wrote:
My, unprofessional, understanding is that a professional photographer would not be walking up to an unknown, and potential risk for what is a professional venture with capital and reputation riding on it, and offer them the cover of anything..

For pro jobs.. Pros use pros.. And get them from agencies..

ill walk up to an unknown if the look fits what im looking for ill walk up to anyone anywhere anytime...accept weddings and funerals

Dick Pick wrote:
How to tell the real from the posers? A girl who wants to model asked me how she could tell when offers are from real photographers. Told her to search with Yahoo or whatever and she would find credits for real published fotogs.

the suggestion of determining one's professional status based on an internet search is about the worst advice one could give.  if you don't understand why that is true then you have no business giving any advice at all.

--face reality

TXPhotog wrote:
Any photographer that promises a cover, or "an editorial" or any other inducement to get a model to work with him other than good pictures is a scam at some level.  (Obviously that does not apply to cases where the model is being paid for the shoot.)

Not totally true, I work with a photographer that gets to pick models for some of his lifestyle covers, granted they are not vogue, but he shoots them to get his artists some tears, its in print monthly and in Barnes and Nobles, I know he has randomely used some model/actress that has fit his criteria.  http://lifescapemag.com/includes/thumbn … &height=80  that was the cover, sorry it was two months ago so I could not find a larger version,  but here is the magazine, he shoots covers every month and mostly uses models he knows.  www.lifescapemag.com 

So it can happen, now I am sure he chooses someone who fits the criteria, but where they come from is not relevant, this months cover model is a friend and lawyer and also on this site, you can find the mag in Barnes and Nobles so saying its a scam is not always true.  Real information is becoming so hard to come y on this site.  Check references and check the photographers work, that shows the level and quality their work, and usually if they are good they have worked with many model and many agencies and they have someone you can check with as to there legitimacy.

G

FaceReality wrote:
the suggestion of determining one's professional status based on an internet search is about the worst advice one could give.  if you don't understand why that is true then you have no business giving any advice at all.

--face reality

LOL..... You can't do that with me, either, for the simple reason that I do photography alone under the Studio36 name but write, and do the photography to support that activity, under a different name... and occasionally for investigative reportage use a completely fictitious name for both by-line and photo credit. But that's just me and in my particular circumstances.

Studio36

Shadowscape Studio wrote:
...ALL PROFESSIONAL WORK will come from an agancy.  Agencies hire models.  Agencies hire photographers.  Then they work together.  The only true professional photographer that hires models are art photographers that work on getting their images in galleries and do not work for customers.

Anytime someone uses the terms 'all' or 'allways' or 'never', you have to be very careful of the source.

In October 2006, I created an national consumer ad for Allergan Pharmaceutical, a multi-billion dollar company who uses only very high end Ad agencies for their marketing. I was contracted by the Ad agency. I hired the model, not the agency.  And the model I hired is not agency repped.

You can not use the criteria suggested by Shadowscape as a basis for professionalism.  This is what portfolios are for.

W.G. Rowland wrote:
My unprofessional understanding is that a professional photographer would not be walking up to an unknown and potential risk for what is a professional venture with capital and reputation riding on it, and offer them the cover of anything..

For pro jobs.. Pros use pros.. And get them from agencies..

So many times I've seen huge commercial photographers use friends and relatives in commercial and portfolio ventures.  James B. Wood is an example of that.  He's known for his huge sets and Wells Fargo Bank campaigns.

Usually I'll cast from model agencies.  But sometimes the look I need is sitting in a chair right next to me.

Im'age NY (INY) wrote:
I just joined VogueAgent... photographers (and models for that matter) can be verified. It's a start

Couture Imagery wrote:
this site looks....slightly less than professional?

Curt Burgess wrote:
Not sure which one you were looking at, but these two don't inspire confidence!

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu … =117603542

http://vogueagent.com

How can you verify a photographer from an 'agent' that can't be verified???

It should be obvious that vogueagent.com is a total fake.  They have NO contact information listed (such as phone number or address).   The 'myspace' link shows they're in Las Vegas, yet there is no legals record of a legitimate licensed agent or any other business by that name in Nevada.