Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23400
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Herb Way wrote:
I recently exchanged several emails with a MM model and spoke with her on the telephone to set up yesterday's shoot for which she was a no show. As of this moment, I still haven't heard from her. Flakey is flakey. Professional is professional and most web models, it seems, don't really know the meaning of the word. I sympathize.
Phone calls help, but a flake is a flake.
Photographer
Mikel Featherston
Posts: 11103
San Diego, California, US
Image K wrote:
I understand.
I work nights myself, and I often have the same problem.
The Starbucks idea sounds good. Doing a pre-shoot meeting is great if you have the time to spare for it. I try to do it every time. It's a good way to find personality clashes without wasting an entire day with the camera in hand.
Model
Ashley N Spicer
Posts: 69
Orlando, Florida, US
I am an AWFUL phone person - even my friends and family don't get to talk to me much via telephone. As with what someone else said, I myself am a Biology student so I don't have a whole lot of time to spare and it's very easy to forget to call when you're so busy. I do prefer e-mail as I can tend to it as I have time (be it in the middle of the night or whatever). On top of that, I don't think I've ever had a simple "Hey how are you.... what date? time? theme? quick general ideas?" talk from a photographer I have called before. I agree with others that there are times where I have eaten up my minutes because the photographer wanted to give me his life story. E-mail it to me if it's that important. I would prefer to meet people ahead of time but it seems as though lately I've been working with photographers that are a bit far from me... Oh well.. can't win them all 
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23400
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Mikel Featherston wrote:
Doing a pre-shoot meeting is great if you have the time to spare for it. I try to do it every time. It's a good way to find personality clashes without wasting an entire day with the camera in hand. Thanks, Mikel.
Or at least a phone call.
I just have a problem finalizing solely on the basis of e-mails.
Model
Brandy
Posts: 1353
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Herb Way wrote:
I recently exchanged several emails with a MM model and spoke with her on the telephone to set up yesterday's shoot for which she was a no show. As of this moment, I still haven't heard from her. Flakey is flakey. Professional is professional and most web models, it seems, don't really know the meaning of the word. Agreed here... a flake is going to flake phone call or not... atleast in my opinion.
Photographer
CarrJacked Photography
Posts: 51
Asheville, North Carolina, US
I couldn't agree more!
It's not like asking for someone's first born child, their ATM PIN number, their brand new car, or their valuable Barbi-doll collection...
It's just a flippin' phone call! Try Bosco
Photographer
Mikel Featherston
Posts: 11103
San Diego, California, US
Image K wrote:
Thanks, Mikel.
Or at least a phone call.
I just have a problem finalizing solely on the basis of e-mails. Giving a phone number shows a willingness to commit their time to you. There are no consequences from flaking out on an e-mail only conversation. They just filter your subsequent messages to the trash bin. They can STILL screen their calls from you, but it is not as impersonal as ignoring e-mail.
Model
Brandy
Posts: 1353
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Ashley N Spicer wrote:
On top of that, I don't think I've ever had a simple "Hey how are you.... what date? time? theme? quick general ideas?" talk from a photographer I have called before. I agree with others that there are times where I have eaten up my minutes because the photographer wanted to give me his life story. E-mail it to me if it's that important. This, right here is part of the reason why I HATE the phone calls. I have not had one simple phone call. Some go on and on... I've heard what they were having for dinner for the rest of the week before I got any detail on the shoot.
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23400
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Ashley N Spicer wrote:
I am an AWFUL phone person - even my friends and family don't get to talk to me much via telephone. As with what someone else said, I myself am a Biology student so I don't have a whole lot of time to spare and it's very easy to forget to call when you're so busy. I do prefer e-mail as I can tend to it as I have time (be it in the middle of the night or whatever).
On top of that, I don't think I've ever had a simple "Hey how are you.... what date? time? theme? quick general ideas?" talk from a photographer I have called before. I agree with others that there are times where I have eaten up my minutes because the photographer wanted to give me his life story. E-mail it to me if it's that important.
I would prefer to meet people ahead of time but it seems as though lately I've been working with photographers that are a bit far from me...
Oh well.. can't win them all I appreciate your input.
I have a difficult time with statements like "I don't have time for phone calls", or "I'm really busy", or "I can't remember to return a call".
Unless you are Donald trump, or Oprah Winfrey, or a CEO of a major corporation, most of us do have time to make a phone call.
I'm busy myself. I hold down 2 jobs, aside from photography. But I find time for a 45-second phone call when someone leaves me a message.
As far as forgetting, if you forget to make a phone call when you said that you would, it's more likely than not that you will forget to show for the shoot.
Photographer
Mikel Featherston
Posts: 11103
San Diego, California, US
Brandy wrote:
This, right here is part of the reason why I HATE the phone calls. I have not had one simple phone call. Some go on and on... I've heard what they were having for dinner for the rest of the week before I got any detail on the shoot. Give me your number and I'll give you a simple phone call. 
Model
soma_stardust
Posts: 611
Emeryville, California, US
Jessalyn wrote:
I agree. If someone calls ME I can totally answer it. But if you want me to call YOU then there has to be a really good reason to. That's why I tell photographers to call me instead because I hate calling people. i'm so glad i'm not the only one. haha. i kept thinking i was a freak, but i'm finding more and more people like this.
and if i miss a call, i'll usualy text back with my phone number so they can call again. i have no problem texting. haha.
~soma~
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23400
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Mikel Featherston wrote:
Giving a phone number shows a willingness to commit their time to you. There are no consequences from flaking out on an e-mail only conversation. They just filter your subsequent messages to the trash bin. They can STILL screen their calls from you, but it is not as impersonal as ignoring e-mail. Exactly my point!
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23400
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Brandy wrote:
This, right here is part of the reason why I HATE the phone calls. I have not had one simple phone call. Some go on and on... I've heard what they were having for dinner for the rest of the week before I got any detail on the shoot. If this is true, then the phone call actually helped you out.
If he's more interested in telling you what he's eating for the rest of the week, he's probably going to be the same way in person.
Or, he may not be serious about photography at all.
You would not have known that if you hadn't talked to him.
Photographer
David Scott
Posts: 5617
Marion, Iowa, US
Image K wrote:
No disrespect intended, David...
But what if she turned out to be a 6'1" 27 yr old male ex-convict that ends up beating the snot out of you, stealing your money and equipment, and leaving you for dead?
I agree that a phone call doesn't completely discount this possibility, but it helps. Understandable. Well then that's what happens. She could be the exact girl and do the same thing. What if that 6'1 27 year old male convict has someone (female) talk to you on the phone and set you up and then goes and beats the snot out of you and steals your equipment? What if? What if?
I understand where you're coming from with the phone call... in my experience though I haven't really noticed a difference between those who I have confirmed via phone call vs those who I have confirmed via email. I actually have had people confirm via phone call in this very same town and not show up. That's my story I mentioned earlier. If someone is going to flake or not show up, they are going to do with with our without a phone call or email confirmation. I do agree that it's just a phone call. Like you, I'm not a big phone person. Sometimes a lot of the details get worked out in email like someone earlier mentioned. Most new models or clients I have worked with have either been in Waterloo (my hometown, only 50 miles away) or Iowa City (35 miles away) or they have come here to Cedar Rapids... so it's not a big loss. But if it is a greater distance and things haven't been confirmed one way or the other, I don't even go anywhere until it is. I won't even bother ot get dressed or ready to go until they tell me they are going to be there and ready. And even then they could flake or have some emergency that comes up. No guarantees, that's the chance you take. Also, I usually do talk with new models for a little while before shooting, so maybe that helps (talking on a personal level, learning about personaily and such, and also shoot details).
Edit: I do like to get phone numbers from people just in case the day of the shoot I am running late or if I am traveling to their area I get a little lost or whatnot. Haven't had any problems with that.
Model
Pasha M
Posts: 948
Atlanta, Georgia, US
I personally hate using the phone, but I do usually give the photographer my phone number right away, just in case they would like to chat on the phone. I leave it up to them. But, I try to let them know that I am not always available as I am a dog groomer by day, songwriter by night, and volunteer with the deaf community in between. Its seemed to work out for the couple of shoots I have done.
Photographer
David Scott
Posts: 5617
Marion, Iowa, US
Soma Stardust wrote:
i'm so glad i'm not the only one. haha. i kept thinking i was a freak, but i'm finding more and more people like this.
and if i miss a call, i'll usualy text back with my phone number so they can call again. i have no problem texting. haha.
~soma~ Texting? ugh, brings back bad memories lol
Model
Brandy
Posts: 1353
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Image K wrote:
If this is true, then the phone call actually helped you out.
If he's more interested in telling you what he's eating for the rest of the week, he's probably going to be the same way in person.
Or, he may not be serious about photography at all.
You would not have known that if you hadn't talked to him. If this were learning something about someone that I was going to be dating.. then yes, I am learning something.
If this were learning something about someone that I was going to spend a week around, then I am learning something.
Since I am going to be spending between an hour and 10 hours with this person... I'm not learning much. This is a quick, business relationship for the most part. I've done business with some pretty dull people in my career and whether I knew this before or just found out during the meeting, I was going to do business with them anyways. It's the quality of work I'm looking for... not really the personality of the person.
Model
LucisPtera
Posts: 136
Austin, Texas, US
I've done a shoot based totally on email once, and it went off fine, but I do prefer to hear someone's voice and get a feel for them over the phone. It also gives a great chance to play off eachother's ideas, rather than having to wait for emails.
Photographer
David Scott
Posts: 5617
Marion, Iowa, US
LucisPtera wrote:
I've done a shoot based totally on email once, and it went off fine, but I do prefer to hear someone's voice and get a feel for them over the phone. It also gives a great chance to play off eachother's ideas, rather than having to wait for emails. I do agree with this. If the emails are not very frequent I usually tend to give a phone call. Typically I give out my number to the model in the original email and in a couple of reply (just as part of my signature) and I ask for their number once things seem to be rolling more into the shooting direction.. sometimes the first email.. sometimes the second.. like I said, goes back to the frequency thing. The girl I shot with today, I didn't even grab her number until yesterday morning
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23400
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
LucisPtera wrote:
I've done a shoot based totally on email once, and it went off fine, but I do prefer to hear someone's voice and get a feel for them over the phone. It also gives a great chance to play off eachother's ideas, rather than having to wait for emails. I agree, and that's my main point.
I agree that it's not about evaluating someone's personality.
I agree that a flake is a flake.
I agree that a phone call does not answer all questions about someone's reliability.
In the end, it's just one more tool that helps me instinctually tell me whether or not someone is reliable to show up for a commitment.
In the end, I trust my instincts.
Photographer
David Scott
Posts: 5617
Marion, Iowa, US
Image K wrote:
I agree, and that's my main point.
I agree that it's not about evaluating someone's personality.
I agree that a flake is a flake.
I agree that a phone call does not answer all questions about someone's reliability.
In the end, it's just one more tool that helps me instinctually tell me whether or not someone is reliable to show up for a commitment.
In the end, I trust my instincts. I kind of skimmed the thread a little so I may have missed this but have you done a shoot scheduled/confirmed solely by email already? (or attempted and they flaked)
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23400
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Brandy wrote:
If this were learning something about someone that I was going to be dating.. then yes, I am learning something.
If this were learning something about someone that I was going to spend a week around, then I am learning something.
Since I am going to be spending between an hour and 10 hours with this person... I'm not learning much. This is a quick, business relationship for the most part. I've done business with some pretty dull people in my career and whether I knew this before or just found out during the meeting, I was going to do business with them anyways. It's the quality of work I'm looking for... not really the personality of the person. So every photographer that you had a phone conversation with kept you on the phone forever ?
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23400
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
David Scott wrote:
I kind of skimmed the thread a little so I may have missed this but have you done a shoot scheduled/confirmed solely by email already? (or attempted and they flaked) No. I wouldn't do a shoot solely on the basis of e-mails.
Model
Brandy
Posts: 1353
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Image K wrote:
So every photographer that you had a phone conversation with kept you on the phone forever ? 99.9%.. and I've been doing this for a while.
Model
MelissaLynnette LaDiva
Posts: 50816
Leawood, Kansas, US
Image K wrote:
So every photographer that you had a phone conversation with kept you on the phone forever ? I'll answer: Yes!
Photographer
David Scott
Posts: 5617
Marion, Iowa, US
Image K wrote:
No. I wouldn't do a shoot solely on the basis of e-mails. So that means you haven't done so in the past. okay that's what i was wondering.
Photographer
David Scott
Posts: 5617
Marion, Iowa, US
I will say though, the farther away the model is, the more likely I am to call them about the shoot rather than just relying on the emails.... and... speaking for me personally, I can kind of get a feel for a person from the emails somehow. Not foolproof of course, but typically it works out. There have been people I've been in contact with that it's been boring on the phone.. boring by email.. but in person it's awesome. and vice versa.
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23400
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Melissa Lynnette wrote:
I'll answer: Yes! I must be the only photographer that likes quick, concise phone calls!
I knew I was doing something right!
Photographer
David Scott
Posts: 5617
Marion, Iowa, US
Image K wrote:
I must be the only photographer that likes quick, concise phone calls!
I knew I was doing something right! Unless we're discussing a lot of details.. phone calls tend to be under 4 minutes for me. My average call to someone in general is probably under 2 minutes lol
Model
soma_stardust
Posts: 611
Emeryville, California, US
Image K wrote:
I must be the only photographer that likes quick, concise phone calls!
I knew I was doing something right! that's definitely an advantage.
i hate being on the phone "blahblahblah." i just like to get it done.
~soma~
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23400
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Here's an example of a few e-mails that I received recently:
"Great I am only 5 mini from airport. Yes that can be perfect 1-3. Great excited to work together. That camera is a good one congrats and I am happy to be the first one u get to shoot with it!!! We can do a 2 hr shoot for 150 or just do 3hrs for 200. Thats what I usually do for the photographers I worked for alot. But u seem very nice and ur work is great
Talk soon "
This, in my mind, is a confirmed shoot.
Another post, same model, two days later:
Hey is there anyway that we can start the shoot at 330 or 4 on sat>And shoot till 7 or 630 what ever ud like? I just got asked to do my normal promo job sat to fill in for someone and i felt bad and that is from 11-3 unless u want to shoot 7am-10am
My response:
Wow, I'm...speechless.
I paid for the studio from 1-3, only after you CONFIRMED the day and time slot with me (see above). I have to check with the studio owner about shifting the time. The assistant that I had planned on having with me has to work at 4, so I can't have him there if I change plans. I really needed his help to make this work.
I will get back to you.
She never called when she said that she would call. That was a clear indication that she was going to flake.
And she did.
Photographer
Mike White Photo
Posts: 332
Chicago, Illinois, US
Whenever a model does not make an appointment, it's almost always because I didn't remind them by phone the day before. Whenever I make an appointment in advance and don't follow up with a phone call, I get burned. The last model blew me off after over 10 emails, and explained later that she didn't have my phone number to cancel (It was on the 10 emails).
Photographer
David Scott
Posts: 5617
Marion, Iowa, US
Image K wrote:
Here's an example of a few e-mails that I received recently:
"Great I am only 5 mini from airport. Yes that can be perfect 1-3. Great excited to work together. That camera is a good one congrats and I am happy to be the first one u get to shoot with it!!! We can do a 2 hr shoot for 150 or just do 3hrs for 200. Thats what I usually do for the photographers I worked for alot. But u seem very nice and ur work is great
Talk soon "
This, in my mind, is a confirmed shoot.
Another post, same model, two days later:
Hey is there anyway that we can start the shoot at 330 or 4 on sat>And shoot till 7 or 630 what ever ud like? I just got asked to do my normal promo job sat to fill in for someone and i felt bad and that is from 11-3 unless u want to shoot 7am-10am
My response:
Wow, I'm...speechless.
I paid for the studio from 1-3, only after you CONFIRMED the day and time slot with me (see above). I have to check with the studio owner about shifting the time. The assistant that I had planned on having with me has to work at 4, so I can't have him there if I change plans. I really needed his help to make this work.
I will get back to you.
She never called when she said that she would call. That was a clear indication that she was going to flake.
And she did. Did you call her then?
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23400
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
David Scott wrote:
Did you call her then? She never gave me her phone number...
I asked her to call me, and she never did.
Surprise...
Model
Brandy
Posts: 1353
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Image K wrote:
Here's an example of a few e-mails that I received recently:
"Great I am only 5 mini from airport. Yes that can be perfect 1-3. Great excited to work together. That camera is a good one congrats and I am happy to be the first one u get to shoot with it!!! We can do a 2 hr shoot for 150 or just do 3hrs for 200. Thats what I usually do for the photographers I worked for alot. But u seem very nice and ur work is great
Talk soon "
This, in my mind, is a confirmed shoot.
Another post, same model, two days later:
Hey is there anyway that we can start the shoot at 330 or 4 on sat>And shoot till 7 or 630 what ever ud like? I just got asked to do my normal promo job sat to fill in for someone and i felt bad and that is from 11-3 unless u want to shoot 7am-10am
My response:
Wow, I'm...speechless.
I paid for the studio from 1-3, only after you CONFIRMED the day and time slot with me (see above). I have to check with the studio owner about shifting the time. The assistant that I had planned on having with me has to work at 4, so I can't have him there if I change plans. I really needed his help to make this work.
I will get back to you.
She never called when she said that she would call. That was a clear indication that she was going to flake.
And she did. On the flip side of this, I had a great experience yesterday with a photographer who was visiting from out of town. We had set up a time through email a few days before he left his home. I found out after he left that I had to work graveyard for this weekend... I also had a shoot on Saturday and one other shoot along with his on Sunday.
I got a call from him on Saturday (he left a message) saying that he was really far ahead of schedule and would be flexible with my time. I called back, left him a message saying that I would be up by 5am Sunday morning for a shoot and gave him a 1pm time for his shoot. He confirmed via message on my cell yesterday and we had a VERY successful shoot yesterday afternoon... it also allowed me the time to go home and get my necessary rest.
We NEVER had one phone conversation, just email and brief messages on voice mail. There was a time change involved also... this shoot went off without a hitch.. he was also one of the most personable, professional and fun photographers I've worked with.
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23400
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Brandy wrote:
On the flip side of this, I had a great experience yesterday with a photographer who was visiting from out of town. We had set up a time through email a few days before he left his home. I found out after he left that I had to work graveyard for this weekend... I also had a shoot on Saturday and one other shoot along with his on Sunday.
I got a call from him on Saturday (he left a message) saying that he was really far ahead of schedule and would be flexible with my time. I called back, left him a message saying that I would be up by 5am Sunday morning for a shoot and gave him a 1pm time for his shoot. He confirmed via message on my cell yesterday and we had a VERY successful shoot yesterday afternoon... it also allowed me the time to go home and get my necessary rest.
We NEVER had one phone conversation, just email and brief messages on voice mail. There was a time change involved also... this shoot went off without a hitch.. he was also one of the most personable, professional and fun photographers I've worked with. I don't remember saying that a shoot can't go off without a hitch without a phone call .
There are exceptions to every rule.
It's just a tool that I use to test (for lack of a better word) someone's predisposition to flake.
If she can't remember to make a phone call, she more likely than not will flake on the shoot.
And it sounds like more than a few photographers are in agreement with me.
Photographer
David Scott
Posts: 5617
Marion, Iowa, US
Actually here is an series of emails from a recent shoot which we had planned the date for a while... she was waiting to get a babysitter (which she had pleny of time to arrange.. even when I reminded her 3 days prior to the planned shoot day.. so the only thing left to confirm was the exact timing for the shoot.. and I was planning to travel 2 hours there to shoot with her.. mind you she isn't a model but she said she is very interested in shooting up to this point.) Here's what happened.
I got her phone number Monday Night.. told her I would wait to hear an email back from her by 5pm tuesday evening, if no response then I would give her a call that evening. I did end up having to call her. (keep in mind I gave her my number at least 4 times over the course of.. about.. 2-3 weeks of discussing the potential shoot). I called her (her cell phone, which keeps track of numbers by default), left a message.. it was around 6:30, 7pm. No call back from her that night. Woke up in the morning with NO plans to go visit her and no plans to contact her first. Mind you we tried to set up something a few weeks prior to these discussions in which she "forgot" about. She said she is one of those people who is shy about the phone or whatever.
So no word at all on Wednesday... Thursday though I get this from her:
"holy crap I am the worst person in the world. I didn't answer my phone that night b/c I didn't recognize number and I thought it was a collector so I didn't check messages til later that next evening. I tried to get on my messanger that night and that whole next day and it was crappy and I forgot I could get ahold of you on here. so I am sorry, I still really want to do it, but I couldn't find a babysitter, and lexi was sick that day. I'll make it up to you. but I hope you forgive me and I iwll ttyl"
my response:
How come you didn't put my number in your phone? I gave it to you at least twice. And since you had my number obviously since you saw you didn't recognize it, after you checked your messages, why couldn't you at least have called? Much quicker way to get a hold of me than on here.
her reply:
because i delted the phone number before I knew who it was
sorry. i don't answer if I don't recognize it at all. im weird like that.
**** is it just my phone or does the computerized voice tell you the phone number of the person that called when playing back a message? and maybe its just my phone too, but when someone calls, in order to delete that number completely from my phone, i pretty much have to delete all the numbers in my call history*****
my reply:
*typed in my phone number here*. If you want to shoot, you can give me a call. If you don't call, I assume you don't want to shoot. Put my number in your phone, talk to you later.
at this point i dont really have a desire to shoot with her unless SHE travels HERE.
Model
Brandy
Posts: 1353
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Image K wrote:
I don't remember saying that a shoot can't go off without a hitch without a phone call .
There are exceptions to every rule.
It's just a tool that I use to test (for lack of a better word) someone's predisposition to flake.
If she can't remember to make a phone call, she more likely than not will flake on the shoot.
And it sounds like more than a few photographers are in agreement with me. Most of the time I can't even remember what I had for lunch an hour earlier or if I set my alarm clock. Remembering a phone call is even worse.. doesn't mean I'm going to flake... it means I have a lot on my mind. Don't group everyone who can't remember a call into a flake group... it's not fair to the true professionals.
Photographer
David Scott
Posts: 5617
Marion, Iowa, US
Image K wrote:
She never gave me her phone number...
I asked her to call me, and she never did.
Surprise... Yeah.. I say if they cant give you their number.. you can't shoot with them. Your time is valuable and you have other people you could be shooting/things you could be scheduling for that day.
I am actually thinking about making that a rule myself for 2007 (unless I have shot with them before or they have shot with people I know and they are reliable)
Photographer
Sockpuppet Studios
Posts: 7862
San Francisco, California, US
Soma Stardust wrote:
i'm so glad i'm not the only one. haha. i kept thinking i was a freak, but i'm finding more and more people like this.
and if i miss a call, i'll usualy text back with my phone number so they can call again. i have no problem texting. haha.
~soma~ Grrrr send PM instead of another phone message...
|
