Click Hamilton wrote:
If you ask 100 people about anything, you will probably get more than 100 different opinions. There is no single set of rules and there is no singularly correct point of view.

Most people who criticize are often quite mediocre themselves.

Anyone who wants to reach out and express themselves, can. It's all relative. At any point, there are lots of people worse than us and lots of people who are far better than us. So what?

What matters is that we love what we do and approach it with a positive attitude. Children can have fun drawing stick people or writing the alphabet. Most of us will never be a Rembrandt.

Take a deep breath of life. Exhale slowly. Savor the moment. Ignore the critics. Do what feels right, stay there as long as it interests you, then move on to the next thing that interests you.

Life is whatever we want it to be.
The rules are for us to discover relative to ourselves.

Open up, smell the roses. Flowers are everywhere around us.

Hope makes people happy.

Infinite Possibilities

I have read a lot of posts on MM.

This may be the best yet.

Jay Bowman wrote:
For every person who made it despite a bunch of people telling him/her that he/she would never make it...

...there's a ton of people who don't have a shot in hell but have a bunch of idiots who don't know better (or are probably trying to get into their pants) blowing smoke up their asses.


Trying to bestow the truth upon those who are completely unwilling to hear it is useless.  Besides, without them, the Artsier-than-Thou and the More-Fashionable-than Thou and the More-Glammerous-than-Thou would have nary a Philistine to make them feel superior.  Why ruin it for them?

I guess I'd be one of the smoke blowers.. But I have to ask.. Is it really such a widespread problem?  At least moreso than reality..

We all have our opinions on who deserves to succeed and who doesn't..  And yet, while I would probably smile a little more if Paris Hilton could NOT buy and sell me a million times over..  How does the smoke blowing up her ass affect me directly?

And on the lower end of the scale..  How much does it affect me if someone says something nice or positive towards someone I wouldn't..  Why do I even have to care?

Dave Krueger wrote:
Col. Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee: I think I'm entitled.
Col. Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee: I want the truth.
Col. Jessep: You can't handle the truth.

But the truth is out there.....

Dave Krueger wrote:
Col. Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee: I think I'm entitled.
Col. Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee: I want the truth.
Col. Jessep: You can't handle the truth.

LoL ... that was pretty good.

Lee Frederic wrote:

But the truth is out there.....

Sure.. And it's only $9.95 to the first 100 callers..

W.G. Rowland wrote:

Sure.. And it's only $9.95 to the first 100 callers..

lol

Stacy wrote:
And a friend will forever be scarred from the time in which her father litterally held her back from the kickoff of a swimming test when she was 6 yrs old. "YOU'LL NEVER MAKE IT" he says as she tries to break free from the tight grip he has on ankle kicking in the pool water.

I have a phobia about playing chess from about the same age, cause my father never 'let' me win. He played it with me just like he would play it with anyone else. After losing about 100 games in a row to him, I somehow developed an aversion to chess.

Stacy wrote:
And a friend will forever be scarred from the time in which her father litterally held her back from the kickoff of a swimming test when she was 6 yrs old. "YOU'LL NEVER MAKE IT" he says as she tries to break free from the tight grip he has on ankle kicking in the pool water.

arrow through my heart

Q: what can we do to make the reverse of this happen in our daily lives?

Craig Seay  wrote:
Everyone who's made it to the top of their game has been told at one time or another that they don't have the right stuff and should quit. Maybe you're that person who will make the difference; give them the purpose to prove you wrong.

You'll never make it. I think you should quit.

Well...alright Craig.

I'm selling all my stuff...

I quit.

Webspinner wrote:
I have a phobia about playing chess from about the same age, cause my father never 'let' me win. He played it with me just like he would play it with anyone else. After losing about 100 games in a row to him, I somehow developed an aversion to chess.

Awwee. well I know what you mean my dad was hard on my dreams too.

Image K wrote:

Well...alright Craig.

I'm selling all my stuff...

I quit.

I meant that comment for Bill. See my edit. You're going to make it Ken.

Webspinner wrote:

I have a phobia about playing chess from about the same age, cause my father never 'let' me win. He played it with me just like he would play it with anyone else. After losing about 100 games in a row to him, I somehow developed an aversion to chess.

I used to play a game called Command and Conquer with an ex-girlfriend. I never let her win.  Damn she was getting better and better each time.

A little different from your experience though.  Children can get more frustrated and are prone to giving up more than adults who may be more apt to prove themselves.

Click Hamilton wrote:
arrow through my heart

Q: what can we do to make the reverse of this happen in our daily lives?

Well, she didn't give up. She swims just fine. Her dad's kinda odd anyway.

Craig Seay  wrote:

I meant that comment for Bill. See my edit. You're going to make it Ken.

ummm, what do have to sell Ken~?

Craig Seay  wrote:

I meant that comment for Bill. See my edit. You're going to make it Ken.

Just having some fun with you, Craig!

When I can play ball in your league, I will have made it.

DigitalCMH wrote:
I like to let people be happy.  If they are having fun, who cares right?

But, if someone with crappy work tries to dog on someone else, I'll happily let loose.

I like this mindset.  I shoot to (trying not to sound avant garde or anything) to try and make what passes for art - to me.  I cant draw sing or paint, but I can point one of my several cameras at something.

W.G. Rowland wrote:
I guess I'd be one of the smoke blowers.. But I have to ask.. Is it really such a widespread problem?  At least moreso than reality..

We all have our opinions on who deserves to succeed and who doesn't..  And yet, while I would probably smile a little more if Paris Hilton could NOT buy and sell me a million times over..  How does the smoke blowing up her ass affect me directly?

And on the lower end of the scale..  How much does it affect me if someone says something nice or positive towards someone I wouldn't..  Why do I even have to care?

The only problem with smokeblowing is when the Emperor has no clothes.

What are we talking about in reference to truth....someone's work?  What kind of work...attempts at commercial or fashion photography?  Fine art work?

Or are we talking about approaches to making it in the photographic industry?

It's all contextual.

If someone is a model, at 5'0" and an ugly face, what are their realistic prospects at becoming a runway model making 150,000 a year?   If someone says, your intent doesn't have a very realistic chance in becoming reality, is that bad or good?

If an aspiring photographer wants to break into fashion and thinks that's just a matter of moving from taking photos of nude women to shooting women wearing clothes, is it a bad thing if someone who has actually been working in the industry for 20-40 years says, "dude, there's a bit more to it than that?"

Don't get me wrong, I've been in the amateur vs. pro battles and I think that some absolutes that people on both sides can be overbearing....but in some matters, especially if someone is talking out of their ass, then what is wrong  with a touch of reality?

Jason McKendricks wrote:
Mr. Rowland makes some thought provoking points. I'm lucky. I never claimed to be good and i have no aspirations to be famous at this. I shoot because I truly love to. If someone wants to tell me I'll never be good, I'll smile and say that's alright- I'm having fun.

I have the same mindset.

It's easy for me to have this attitude. I have a career, and I don't pay the bills with my photography.

I may never make a dime doing this.

And that's fine with me.

When I show a model a pic that I took of her, and her face lights up, and she says,"I love it"!, I just got paid.

I know that makes me a fool.

Image K wrote:
Just having some fun with you, Craig!

When I can play ball in your league, I will have made it.

Haha, tell that to my wife. I'll never be considered successful until I make more money than she does.

Thanks Ken. New stuff up, come see~!

Lee Frederic wrote:

But the truth is out there.....

Time always reveals the Truth

KM von Seidl wrote:

The only problem with smokeblowing is when the Emperor has no clothes.

What are we talking about in reference to truth....someone's work?  What kind of work...attempts at commercial or fashion photography?  Fine art work?

Or are we talking about approaches to making it in the photographic industry?

It's all contextual.

If someone is a model, at 5'0" and an ugly face, what are their realistic prospects at becoming a runway model making 150,000 a year?   If someone says, your intent doesn't have a very realistic chance in becoming reality, is that bad or good?

If an aspiring photographer wants to break into fashion and thinks that's just a matter of moving from taking photos of nude women to shooting women wearing clothes, is it a bad thing if someone who has actually been working in the industry for 20-40 years says, "dude, there's a bit more to it than that?"

Don't get me wrong, I've been in the amateur vs. pro battles and I think that some absolutes that people on both sides can be overbearing....but in some matters, especially if someone is talking out of their ass, then what is wrong  with a touch of reality?

Actually this isn't really a pro vs amateur argument.. Sure.. They get caught up in it, but there's maybe a dozen or so of them to the 200,000 plus of everyone else.. And I don't think they have the time or inclination..

No, what I see repeatedly is people with either very mediocre ports or ports that show a very specific bent to their mindset coming in and starting rants that so and so has no business even thinking about getting in front of a camera because X, Y, and Z..

Like CMH said.. If someone attacks, it's open season..

And if someone has unrealistic expectations.. It should be pointed out..

But I see people going nuts over blown smoke when what I most commonly see is a pool of mediocrity (c'mon there's some talents here, but most of us are average at best) trying to keep people from trying because they think they have a clue..

Pro's get annoyed (I think) at bad "positive" advice because it sends people in the wrong direction.. And I agree with that..  I wasted time, money, and effort on plenty of bad advice as I was learning my way around a camera (not that I know my way, but as far as buying equipment, what was worth money, what wasn't, etc..)

I get annoyed at bad negative advice..  Because people struggle up until they find a niche and then often forget that all they've found is a niche..  Not the secret to life.. Not 42.. A niche.. A small crevice in the cliff that holds them up that may or may not have ANYTHING to do with what will work for someone else..

And the part that really bugs me is often they seem to feel a need to knock anyone else down for fear they might lose their ever so fragile footing..

Oh, that and I like to start threads that rile people up..

W.G. Rowland wrote:

Actually this isn't really a pro vs amateur argument.. Sure.. They get caught up in it, but there's maybe a dozen or so of them to the 200,000 plus of everyone else.. And I don't think they have the time or inclination..

No, what I see repeatedly is people with either very mediocre ports or ports that show a very specific bent to their mindset coming in and starting rants that so and so has no business even thinking about getting in front of a camera because X, Y, and Z..

Like CMH said.. If someone attacks, it's open season..

And if someone has unrealistic expectations.. It should be pointed out..

But I see people going nuts over blown smoke when what I most commonly see is a pool of mediocrity (c'mon there's some talents here, but most of us are average at best) trying to keep people from trying because they think they have a clue..

Pro's get annoyed (I think) at bad "positive" advice because it sends people in the wrong direction.. And I agree with that..  I wasted time, money, and effort on plenty of bad advice as I was learning my way around a camera (not that I know my way, but as far as buying equipment, what was worth money, what wasn't, etc..)

I get annoyed at bad negative advice..  Because people struggle up until they find a niche and then often forget that all they've found is a niche..  Not the secret to life.. Not 42.. A niche.. A small crevice in the cliff that holds them up that may or may not have ANYTHING to do with what will work for someone else..

And the part that really bugs me is often they seem to feel a need to knock anyone else down for fear they might lose their ever so fragile footing..

Oh, that and I like to start threads that rile people up..

Jeeeeeeeeze, I knew it was about that from the start, so be truthful, at least own up to it next time

RB

W.G. Rowland wrote:
The thing that keeps me from pulling the trigger (most of the time) on a scathing post or a gentle "I don't quite think you understand what you're getting into" is the fact that just about ever successful professional I've known has been constantly barraged with people who told them, they'd never make it.

A large part of the issue is "make it at what"?  And another large part is "what does it mean by 'make it'"?

In modeling there are some areas ("art" is forever being brought up) in which the requirements are so varied and diffuse that it's probably not possible to tell anyone that they can't "make it" as long as the criteria for "making it" are kept low enough.

In international-level editorial fashion, the requirements are quite strict.  Sure, there are people who don't meet those requirements who "make it" - but in all such cases it's because of some easily discernible factor (or more than one):  a powerful sponsor, lots of money, or so absolutely perfect in all other respects that a few inches in height can be overlooked.

What is meant by all the people who "made it" after being told that they couldn't is that there aren't any bright lines delimiting who can and who can't, but there certainly are strong indicators.  It's easy to judge that someone who doesn't meet some subjective (or even objective) criteria will not be successful, but be wrong if they are close on most or all of them, particularly if they are outstandingly good on some as well.

On the other hand, it's easy to also judge who isn't anywhere near the ballpark on any criteria that matter.  An example:  If I were to proclaim that I could run 26 miles in less than 2 1/2 hours, it would be easy for anyone looking at me to tell me "no, you can't.  Furthermore, you never will be able to, no matter what you do."  And they would be right, even though there are a few elite runners who can do it, and many others who might be able to, even though we could reasonably judge they could not.

When someone is obviously out of the ballpark:  short, heavy, not particularly pretty or beautiful, bad skin, too old, living in North Dakota and not willing to move, an attitude of "I'm going to make it because everyone tells me I ought to be a model" . . . they aren't going to become international, nor national, nor even regional fashion models.  If they do anything at all it will be to walk in a mall fashion show or similar event.  Which brings us back to "what does it mean to make it?"  That judgment can be made with 100% certainty in some cases, even though there are other cases in which it cannot.

W.G. Rowland wrote:
And on the lower end of the scale..  How much does it affect me if someone says something nice or positive towards someone I wouldn't..  Why do I even have to care?

You don't have to if you don't care what people do with the answer, or what it costs them.

And that's the problem:  the "what next?"  If you believe you can "make it", and really want to, and are told you can, you then go off to do the things it takes to "make it".  You spend money on a "portfolio".  You go to expensive modeling schools or conventions.  You fly to New York and go to open calls.  You put together comp cards.  All of this costs time, money and emotional investment.

Yes, it feels good to the person saying it to tell an aspirant, "You can have your dream if only you try hard enough."  Why wouldn't it feel good?  After all, the person giving that advice doesn't have to pay for the "what next" nor pick up the emotional pieces when the truth finally becomes evident.

I've been the in-person bearer of those bad tidings all too often.  My job required it.  I couldn't tell some obvious no-hope "model" to go off and do things to get qualified to "make it", because she'd be on my doorstep with an expensive portfolio a month later, and I'd still have to tell her no.  But when you've had that conversation with a few thousand of them, you kind of get pissed at the people who give them all that false hope, encourage them to chase what they can't have, and then sit back in their chair and think what a wonderful, kind thing they have done.