tgimaging wrote:
After so many threads, so many horror stories, so many no-shows, so many 'changed my mind' situations, I'm getting the idea that something - some form of communication - is needed to cover the areas where shoots get hung up based on poor communication.

Clearly, it's something similiar to a job application is needed. Something a model can use to spell out what he/she is as a model. Here are some initial areas I came up with for a form. Please feel free to add to the list.

From the photographer's standpoint, here's what I would like.

Model information

Name:

Address:

City, State, ZIP:

Contact phone number:

Desired rate of pay:

Image compensation for TFP/TFCD: All  / selected /  Other agreement: 

Credentials:

Modeling schools (include contact for verification):

Credits (include contact for verification):

Strong points/ beneficial information pertaining to the shoot:

Weaknesses:

Chaperone preference:  Required on all shoots  /  Am capable of working independently   /   Depends on situation

Describe any restrictions/limitations you have with regards to content of the image:

Areas of exceptional ability – i.e. swimsuit, runway, artistic, etc…:


Dates/Times available for shooting:

The idea came from a checklist I use at work. The list works great, and eliminates the 'fuzzy' (non-specific) agreements. I rarely have someone say "Well, I thought...... because....

I'd like to compile a list similar to the work list, to make sure all the bases and points are covered.


Please share your thoughts. What else do you think would be beneficial to communicate clearly.

I also use a form, but mine is far simpler.

- Are you interested in shooting with me?
- When can you be here?

I really could care less if the model (or non model or her parents) wasted money on a modeling school, what she has done before or her references. I don't base my decisions on what happened with some other photographer.  I really do not care if she has been a P'boy fold out a half dozen times or if she has never posed before.

TXPhotog wrote:
I confess I don't quite understand the point of this.  You have a list of things you want to know, that you seem to feel help you make decisions about models.  Well, OK, those are the things you want to know.

After looking at the discussion of modeling schools, it's pretty clear you aren't interested in what other people want to know - this list is personal to you.  (Modeling schools are to modeling as Engineering schools are to playing the accordion.  They are a total waste of a model's time and money, and the fact that a model went to them says nothing at all about her except that she is gullible.)

It's also clear that many people (Iona for one, me for another) are more interested in discussing the specifics of a shoot than a list of characteristics that may not have anything to do with it.  I assure you that professional casting directors don't ask anything like those kinds of questions when they cast for a job.

That being the case, do what you feel works for you.

Thanks for the input. By discussing it here, sharing a point or two, the communication may help models and photographers who aren't dealing with professional casting directors. The form is an idea for a way of summarizing what a model's expectations are - from their standpoint - for better communication.

Don't the casting directors have people paid to take care of details like this?

What suggestions would you have for better communication where casting directors aren't used?

tgimaging wrote:
Don't the casting directors have people paid to take care of details like this?

What suggestions would you have for better communication where casting directors aren't used?

My point isn't about how you would communicate where casting directors are involved.  They control that, no need to worry about it.

Rather, it's that if a shoot is for evening dresses, it doesn't make any difference if the model can skate or wear a bathing suit.  The client sets the pay rate, not the model.  Nobody ever cares if she has been to modeling school.  There is no chapreone preference, since chaperones are not allowed. 

Restictions on content?  Doesn't matter what the model's preferences are in general.  The casting director says what this shoot requires, and she will do it or she will not.  What she might do with some other shoot or content is immaterial.

Things like that.  Way too much information being asked about general cases that will not apply to any given shoot.

What casting directors or professional clients do is say what the shoot involves, what it pays, what they need.  Anything outside that is immaterial.

Iona Lynn wrote:
Your Agency, I'm Art,

I used to be Agency.  Now I'm trying to cross over to the Dark Side

And the two are not nearly as different as people seem to assume - which our frequent agreement shows.

Tim Hammond wrote:
Seems way too complicated to me.  I don't need hardly any of that info to know whether I want to work with a model.

Compensation:
You get a CD of all images that I deem fit to show within 30 days after the shoot.  You may also choose EITHER
- X dollars per hour of camera time payable on completion shooting
OR
- X 8x10 prints per hour of camera time, delivered within 30 days of selection.
Pick one or the other.

Requirements: 
- appreciate art of the human form
- be human
- be able to follow directions
- be willing to pose nude
- be 18+ and have ID
- be willing to sign my standard model release (available for review on request)

Limits:
I ask for what I want to shoot.  I do take no for an answer.

If any of those are unacceptable, you're not the model I'm looking for.  How complicated does it need to be.

Thanks for the info Tim. I'm re-thinking the 'form' concept. This seems to be turning into a information list / checklist from the model to verify her thoughts on a particular shoot.

TXPhotog wrote:
My point isn't about how you would communicate where casting directors are involved.  They control that, no need to worry about it.

Rather, it's that if a shoot is for evening dresses, it doesn't make any difference if the model can skate or wear a bathing suit.  The client sets the pay rate, not the model.  Nobody ever cares if she has been to modeling school.  There is no chapreone preference, since chaperones are not allowed. 

Restictions on content?  Doesn't matter what the model's preferences are in general.  The casting director says what this shoot requires, and she will do it or she will not.  What she might do with some other shoot or content is immaterial.

Things like that.  Way too much information being asked about general cases that will not apply to any given shoot.

What casting directors or professional clients do is say what the shoot involves, what it pays, what they need.  Anything outside that is immaterial.

I can appreciate it works that way in your circles. There are other circles though. Circles where photographers are considerate of a model's preferences on restrictions.

If you want to nit-pick what's wrong, feel free. The thread was started to try and share some constructive ways to overcome the poor communication we've read about in past threads. Feel free to share any positive ideas about that as well.

Tim Hammond wrote:
Compensation:
You get a CD of all images that I deem fit to show within 30 days after the shoot.  You may also choose EITHER
- X dollars per hour of camera time payable on completion shooting
OR
- X 8x10 prints per hour of camera time, delivered within 30 days of selection.
Pick one or the other.

Soooo do you ever do.

x dollars per hour - retail price of 1 8 X 10, & 1  8 x 10 print ?

just courious

tgimaging wrote:
I can appreciate it works that way in your circles. There are other circles though. Circles where photographers are considerate of a model's preferences on restrictions.

If you want to nit-pick what's wrong, feel free. The thread was started to try and share some constructive ways to overcome the poor communication we've read about in past threads. Feel free to share any positive ideas about that as well.

It's not a matter of "my circles".  It's a matter of what a shoot requires.

You don't have to know if your model can play the violin if the shoot doesn't require it.  You don't have to know about her "content restrictions" if there is nothing in the shoot people could object to.  All you need to know about is what that particular shoot requires.

That is true "in my circles" and in anyone else's.  Asking for a bunch of extraneous, immaterial information does not improve communications at all - it just throws up "what the hell do you need to know that for" problems.

tgimaging wrote:
Circles where photographers are considerate of a model's preferences on restrictions.

This was an inappropriate cheap shot too.  Everyone at all levels cares about restrictions.  That's why they make it clear, up front, what is required so the model can decide if she wants to do it or not.  What they do NOT do is make her go through a litany of things she doesn't want to do, in case one of them happens to be on your mind.  That is not fair to her.

Ransom J wrote:
TX I know you are almost always 100 percent (well maybe 89 percent) serious in your postings, but i just had to say that you crack me up!

It's a good deal less than 100 percent.  What fun would it be to spend time on this forum and always have to be deadly serious?  Hell, Iona would never speak to me, and I couldn't bear that.

Iona Lynn wrote:

Soooo do you ever do.

x dollars per hour - retail price of 1 8 X 10, & 1  8 x 10 print ?

just courious

Not exactly sure I understand your question, but if you mean is X equal to the retail price of 1 8x10 print, no, it's usually more.  If you mean do I ever pay a combination of prints and dollars, yes, I do when a model asks, though (surprisingly enough) that's an infrequent request.

tgimaging wrote:
The thread was started to try and share some constructive ways to overcome the poor communication we've read about in past threads. Feel free to share any positive ideas about that ...emphasis added

Openness, honesty, consideration, email, telephone.

tgimaging wrote:
After so many threads, so many horror stories, so many no-shows, so many 'changed my mind' situations, I'm getting the idea that something - some form of communication - is needed to cover the areas where shoots get hung up based on poor communication.

Clearly, it's something similiar to a job application is needed. Something a model can use to spell out what he/she is as a model. Here are some initial areas I came up with for a form. Please feel free to add to the list.

From the photographer's standpoint, here's what I would like.

Model information

Name:

Address:

City, State, ZIP:

Contact phone number:

Desired rate of pay:

Image compensation for TFP/TFCD: All  / selected /  Other agreement: 

Credentials:

Modeling schools (include contact for verification):

Credits (include contact for verification):

Strong points/ beneficial information pertaining to the shoot:

Weaknesses:

Chaperone preference:  Required on all shoots  /  Am capable of working independently   /   Depends on situation

Describe any restrictions/limitations you have with regards to content of the image:

Areas of exceptional ability – i.e. swimsuit, runway, artistic, etc…:

Dates/Times available for shooting:

Model release agreement: Standard  / Special considerations:

OMG.  It's like filling out a 1040a form.

Communicate clearly with a model?   Well...I do that artsy fartsy stuff people like to make fun of, so that gives me leeway....

stats, contact info, no frikkin' escorts, astrology sign, felony record, coffee/tea/etc, favourite type of sushi, gay/bi/straight...

...Really, if I think they fit into something I'm working on, we discuss how they may or may not fit,  and then define what the expectations are of the shoot (pay, trade, mercy, whatever).   it changes for me each time because every model is different.

I DO listen very carefully for code words.  The escort thing (they need an escort because they're afraid of me or what might happen working with me) is a no brainer.   Those are cut from any work list of mine.

I do like to ask the model what they think their strengths and weaknesses are.   And when I'm working on one of my strange narrative projects and I think the model is capable of it...I definately  probe to see if and what kind of emotion the model is able to deliver.

But all of this is specifically related to a project I've already basically storyboarded (at least generally) in my mind or onto paper.

TXPhotog wrote:

It's not a matter of "my circles".  It's a matter of what a shoot requires.

You don't have to know if your model can play the violin if the shoot doesn't require it.  You don't have to know about her "content restrictions" if there is nothing in the shoot people could object to.  All you need to know about is what that particular shoot requires.

That is true "in my circles" and in anyone else's.  Asking for a bunch of extraneous, immaterial information does not improve communications at all - it just throws up "what the hell do you need to know that for" problems.


This was an inappropriate cheap shot too.  Everyone at all levels cares about restrictions.  That's why they make it clear, up front, what is required so the model can decide if she wants to do it or not.  What they do NOT do is make her go through a litany of things she doesn't want to do, in case one of them happens to be on your mind.  That is not fair to her.

Note your words from a previous post: "Restictions on content?  Doesn't matter what the model's preferences are in general." You plainly say it doesn't matter what the model's preferences are. Now you are saying in this post that "Everyone at all levels cares about restrictions. Could you please clarify yourself. Thanks.

The response was based on your comment disregarding a model's preferences, and was not mean't as a cheap shot.

tgimaging wrote:
Note your words from a previous post: "Restictions on content?  Doesn't matter what the model's preferences are in general." You plainly say it doesn't matter what the model's preferences are. Now you are saying in this post that "Everyone at all levels cares about restrictions. Could you please clarify yourself. Thanks.

The response was based on your comment disregarding a model's preferences, and was not mean't as a cheap shot.

Please read what I really said.  ""Restictions on content?  Doesn't matter what the model's preferences are in general.  The casting director says what this shoot requires, and she will do it or she will not.  What she might do with some other shoot or content is immaterial. "  Did you get it?

If a model's restrictions include "I won't skydive for a shoot", what difference does it make if we are shooting on dry land?  I don't need a general list of all the things she doesn't want to do.  I don't care about them.  All I care about is whether she will do the things I want done.  Nothing else matters.

Nothing in that says anything at all about disregarding a model's preferences, nor of being inconsiderate of them.  It just means to pay attention to what counts, and not get all hung up on stuff that doesn't.

tgimaging wrote:
The response was based on your comment disregarding a model's preferences, and was not mean't as a cheap shot.

I choose to disregard the fact that you are not an Eskimo.  Why?  Because it doesn't freaking matter to the conversation!

Similarly, I choose to "disregard" a whole lot of things about a model that have nothing at all to do with my shoot.  If she won't pose with unicorns, so what?  I don't have a unicorn.

To disparage that "disregard" seems to me to be very odd indeed.

TXPhotog wrote:
Please read what I really said.  ""Restictions on content?  Doesn't matter what the model's preferences are in general.  The casting director says what this shoot requires, and she will do it or she will not.  What she might do with some other shoot or content is immaterial. "  Did you get it?

If a model's restrictions include "I won't skydive for a shoot", what difference does it make if we are shooting on dry land?  I don't need a general list of all the things she doesn't want to do.  I don't care about them.  All I care about is whether she will do the things I want done.  Nothing else matters.

Nothing in that says anything at all about disregarding a model's preferences, nor of being inconsiderate of them.  It just means to pay attention to what counts, and not get all hung up on stuff that doesn't.

So how would you word that on the form / checklist? List everything you will do? LOL

I'm seeing that we approach a shoot from different perspectives. You have a tunnel-vision appraoch to get a specific goal. As long as the model can deliver, you're happy, and don't care about anything else. I shoot with an exploring style that emcompasses more than one possible outcome, a 'discovering' approach that encourages a model to contribute to the project.

I won't say your approach is wrong, or mine is right. We have different approaches. Now it's easy to understand your view with the 'immaterial' stuff on the form.

Thanks for the input.

tgimaging wrote:
So how would you word that on the form / checklist? List everything you will do?

"I need you to do the following things:  _________________"  Are you OK with all of them?"

tgimaging wrote:
I'm seeing that we approach a shoot from different perspectives. You have a tunnel-vision appraoch to get a specific goal.

Is there some reason to refer to it with the negatively charged term "tunnel vision"?  My requirements may be quite broad, but they are not so broad as to include a requirement that she specify anything at all that might be relevant to any shoot anywhere.  Yours are.

And by not listing the things you expect of her, you are putting the burden on her to know what you  may want.  If she doesn't think of it, it won't be listed.  Not all that many models say they won't skydive for a shoot.  Would you feel that if she didn't list  it as a restriction, she should do it if you ask?  That seems to me to be very unfair.

The burden should be on you to tell her what will likely be required of her - at least in broad terms.  That really need not be very restrictive on your shoot style - it's just courteous to her.

TXPhotog wrote:

I choose to disregard the fact that you are not an Eskimo.  Why?  Because it doesn't freaking matter to the conversation!

Similarly, I choose to "disregard" a whole lot of things about a model that have nothing at all to do with my shoot.  If she won't pose with unicorns, so what?  I don't have a unicorn.

To disparage that "disregard" seems to me to be very odd indeed.

LOL And the casting director was looking for that rainbow connection with a unicorn and a model that works with good with them. Darn. LOL

Your comments sure don't have anything to do with helping create better communication either, so I'll disregard them.

TXPhotog wrote:

"I need you to do the following things:  _________________"  Are you OK with all of them?"


Is there some reason to refer to it with the negatively charged term "tunnel vision"?  My requirements may be quite broad, but they are not so broad as to include a requirement that she specify anything at all that might be relevant to any shoot anywhere.  Yours are.

And by not listing the things you expect of her, you are putting the burden on her to know what you  may want.  If she doesn't think of it, it won't be listed.  Not all that many models say they won't skydive for a shoot.  Would you feel that if she didn't list  it as a restriction, she should do it if you ask?  That seems to me to be very unfair.

The burden should be on you to tell her what will likely be required of her - at least in broad terms.  That really need not be very restrictive on your shoot style - it's just courteous to her.

FYI - Asking for some information concerning what style of shoot a model is comfortable with, and uncomfortable with IS NOT a burden. It's good communication.

The burden should be on you to tell her what will likely be required of her - at least in broad terms!! I use this approach also. It's good communication.

Using a 'focused' (since you don't like tunnel-vision) approach, You ask the model if she's OK with something, which limits the response options to 'yes' or 'no.' If that works for you, great.

I'll use a more open-minded approach with my shoots, to encourage respect, and collaboration.

Now, how to word this on the form. Any suggestions?

Curt Burgess wrote:
I know what I do when I see a model who wants to play 20 questions before we even engage in a conversation .... I move on to the next model in my que.

Some people seem to have a problem with flaky models and others don't. I think some of this has to do with a personal style of communication that creates a comfort level between the two people as well as clarifying expectations and the photographers goals. I have clear expectations on my website in an FAQ. I also have a page that I direct a prospective model to that outlines my current projects so they can let me know what interests them and what doesn't.  I discover alot about the model by their preferences on this.  I don't have a form for the model to fill out that will serve as some type of instrument of torture and not provide that much relevant information anyway. The signal/noise ratio is all wrong with your questions. You're trying to turn it into an interrogation.  I predict it will just turn off most models.

Written interrogation does not equal good communication.

ROFL Thanks for the comments. I had a really good laugh about the torture and interrogation comment. Thank you!! You're funny!

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Curt has a great point.  I've been following this with some amusement.  I understand the OP'S point but lets try and keep things light and breezy on both
sides.  Photographer wants nudes, ask.  Model says yes or no.  Some of us
are trying to conduct bussiness when this really in many ways isn't a business.
Good communication is important in most things but it won't make a difference
for models showing or getting those promised images or her being pissed with you
because you shot her in the blue thong but not the pink one or that you didn't
give her a cd of the shoot a five minutes after the shoot.

You make a good point by mentioning scenarios which happen once in a blue moon - i.e. the pink vs blue thong. Really, how often does that happen to you? Is it worthy of adding a question specifically about thongs?

Like you said, good communication is important. The info I listed in the OP was based on bad experiences I read about in the threads. What is one way you have found useful which contributes to better communication between you and a model? How do you verify that you and the model are thinking along the same lines about content, pay, image use, etc...?

tgimaging wrote:
The thread was started to try and share some constructive ways to overcome the poor communication we've read about in past threads.

you could have kept it far more simple.  exchange phone numbers.  then use the damn phone.

--face reality

tgimaging wrote:
The thread was started to try and share some constructive ways to overcome the poor communication we've read about in past threads.

FaceReality wrote:
you could have kept it far more simple.  exchange phone numbers.  then use the damn phone.

--face reality

exactly. 

to the op: it sounds as though you're putting up some walls between yourself and the model.  this cannot be beneficial to the end result.

Christopher Bush wrote:

exactly. 

to the op: it sounds as though you're putting up some walls between yourself and the model.  this cannot be beneficial to the end result.

Thanks for the opinion. What 'walls' are you thinking would be put up? My intent is to insure the model and I have the same info. Also, that I have a good idea of her strengths and weaknesses. Also, that she communicated areas she's strong in, and areas/styles she'd like to avoid.Also, that we both understand what the compensation is, and what is agreed to with a TF shoot. How is that NOT beneficial?

FaceReality wrote:

you could have kept it far more simple.  exchange phone numbers.  then use the damn phone.

--face reality

How could I have made it simpler and keep the pertinent info. During your phone call, what information do you get pertaining to a shoot?

tgimaging wrote:

Thanks for the opinion. What 'walls' are you thinking would be put up? My intent is to insure the model and I have the same info. Also, that I have a good idea of her strengths and weaknesses. Also, that she communicated areas she's strong in, and areas/styles she'd like to avoid.Also, that we both understand what the compensation is, and what is agreed to with a TF shoot. How is that NOT beneficial?

I think it could put up some walls depending on how you present it.  Models are going to be turned off if they see your form as a job application.  But if you present it as just a way to get tedious details out of the way to make sure the personal time you can devote to them is spent on more important artistic ideas, it will work the other way.

To make sure it comes across well I think it would be important to make it as succinct as possible.

For instance you can lump representaion, schools and references into one category rather than asking for all of them.

You could phrase it simply as "If you have any references such as agencies, past photographers or any formal training that you'd like to mention please list it here.  Contact info is appreciated but not required.) or something like that.  I don't know.

TXPhotog wrote:
I confess I don't quite understand the point of this.  You have a list of things you want to know, that you seem to feel help you make decisions about models.  Well, OK, those are the things you want to know.

After looking at the discussion of modeling schools, it's pretty clear you aren't interested in what other people want to know - this list is personal to you.  (Modeling schools are to modeling as Engineering schools are to playing the accordion.  They are a total waste of a model's time and money, and the fact that a model went to them says nothing at all about her except that she is gullible.)

It's also clear that many people (Iona for one, me for another) are more interested in discussing the specifics of a shoot than a list of characteristics that may not have anything to do with it.  I assure you that professional casting directors don't ask anything like those kinds of questions when they cast for a job.

That being the case, do what you feel works for you.

I've been doing what works for me. I'm sure you are also

I understand the 'many people' you are generalizing about, are interested in discussing the specifics of a shoot. But try not to approach the concept with an either/or mentality. (Your reasoning is that since we are more interested in talking about the shoot, the other items aren't as important. There is a time and place for both.) The thread about free-thinking ways to help eliminate poor communication and compiling a form or checklist to insure the points are covered. You and I both discuss the details of a shoot. That's just a given with any shoot. What about the rest of it?

What other points are important for making sure both parties are on the same page about a shoot. What sort of checklist of form could be used to insure someone isn't changing the agreement, that the model is accurate about her work history, that the photographer doesn't try to get away with a shoot the model didn't agree to.

Let's say, for example, they agreed on a certain type of compensation on a TFCD shoot. The model expects a copy of all the original images. The photographer has a different thought. By using some sort of form - it's spelled out beforehand, and can be referenced. End of problem - unless someone doesn't have scruples and doesn't live up to their end of the agreement.

Again, in the realm of the casting director's circle, things are far different than it is for the majority of models just getting started and the situations they encounter. What 'pointers' would you give them that would help them communicate better?

StarlaMeris wrote:

I think it could put up some walls depending on how you present it.  Models are going to be turned off if they see your form as a job application.  But if you present it as just a way to get tedious details out of the way to make sure the personal time you can devote to them is spent on more important artistic ideas, it will work the other way.

To make sure it comes across well I think it would be important to make it as succinct as possible.

For instance you can lump representaion, schools and references into one category rather than asking for all of them.

You could phrase it simply as "If you have any references such as agencies, past photographers or any formal training that you'd like to mention please list it here.  Contact info is appreciated but not required.) or something like that.  I don't know.

Simply awesome advise!!! You rock!! Thank you!

StarlaMeris wrote:
I think this is a good idea.  Maybe not to require it, but to just point models in the direction of a universal form and tell them, "I'd be interested in meeting and shooting with you.  I have this form that addresses all the little mundane crucial details of modelling and if you'd like to shoot together it would really help speed the process if you could take a couple minutes to look over it."

I know when I'm talking to models I sometimes feel like I'm interrogating them to get all the info.  It would be easier to have these basics addressed right off the bat so that you can spend your time talking on more important things like concept.

I agree with you about the interrogating. Sometimes when they call, I truly am rushed for time, or in the middle of another aspect of work, and I can't give them my full attention. Then it tends to come off blunt and rude. I'm interested in knowing their likes and dis-likes as it pertains to the shoot, but it's hard to do when your rushed.

Are there any questions that might be a little awkward to ask face to face especially when using inexperienced, first time models? Would presenting them on a form be an easier way to allow them time to answer?

Curt Burgess wrote:
I know what I do when I see a model who wants to play 20 questions before we even engage in a conversation .... I move on to the next model in my que.

Some people seem to have a problem with flaky models and others don't. I think some of this has to do with a personal style of communication that creates a comfort level between the two people as well as clarifying expectations and the photographers goals. I have clear expectations on my website in an FAQ. I also have a page that I direct a prospective model to that outlines my current projects so they can let me know what interests them and what doesn't.  I discover alot about the model by their preferences on this.  I don't have a form for the model to fill out that will serve as some type of instrument of torture and not provide that much relevant information anyway. The signal/noise ratio is all wrong with your questions. You're trying to turn it into an interrogation.  I predict it will just turn off most models.

Written interrogation does not equal good communication.

tgimaging wrote:
ROFL Thanks for the comments. I had a really good laugh about the torture and interrogation comment. Thank you!! You're funny!

Damn. Nobody takes me seriously...

Well if you adopt your interrogation technique , please let us know how it goes.

Curt Burgess wrote:

Damn. Nobody takes me seriously...

Well if you adopt your interrogation technique , please let us know how it goes.

You say interrogation; I say good communication. LOL

Please let me know if you need any help with your interrogation technique.