Ryan6663 wrote:
And you know what, no1 is expecting anybody in the fashion industry to show up with a suite and brief case and not be five minutes late.

Suit and briefcase if the role the model is playing requires it.  And yes, it is expected that the model will not be five minutes late.  That causes at least one, perhaps two unhappy phone calls to the model's agency.

Ryan6663 wrote:
People forget that you can get signed to a reputable agency without ever having a professional picture taken, so to say paying a photographer for pictures is necessary is ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous at all.  Getting signed is the easy part.  Getting work is the hard part, and to do that consistently you need professional pictures.

Jeff Marsh wrote:
Most internet models have no clue how to build a career........... most just want some hot pictures and attention......

Jeff hit the nail on the head here.  Low self esteem people looking for attention and can't get enough people to tell them how great they look.  They might pretend but in reality that is all they really want.  Unfortunate and I feel sorry for them.

TXPhotog wrote:

It's not ridiculous at all.  Getting signed is the easy part.  Getting work is the hard part, and to do that consistently you need professional pictures.

Which can be setup with free tests, by the agency.

Cobra Photography wrote:

Jeff hit the nail on the head here.  Low self esteem people looking for attention and can't get enough people to tell them how great they look.  They might pretend but in reality that is all they really want.  Unfortunate and I feel sorry for them.

What is wrong with people just doing it for fun cause it makes them feel good?

Ryan6663 wrote:

What is wrong with people just doing it for fun cause it makes them feel good?

Do the photographers that subscribe to this view refuse paying portfolio shoots from the "low self - esteem...."?

Ryan6663 wrote:
Which can be setup with free tests, by the agency.

For some models, for some types of photography, and for some agencies.  For many others that is not true.  Agencies set up (or encourage) paid tests all the time.  To claim otherwise is disingenuous.

TXPhotog wrote:

For some models, for some types of photography, and for some agencies.  For many others that is not true.  Agencies set up (or encourage) paid tests all the time.  To claim otherwise is disingenuous.

But to say paying is required is also misleading and untrue.  Maybe i play devils advocate here, but not every model will have to pay for photos, and some will pay a ton.  But to say one thing is absolutely required is not true.

Ryan6663 wrote:
What is wrong with people just doing it for fun cause it makes them feel good?

Everything that happens with it is completely unprofessional.  The experiences for me have all been major headache.  Maybe I'm alone here.  So no they are not dedicated to modeling.

Ryan6663 wrote:
But to say paying is required is also misleading and untrue.  Maybe i play devils advocate here, but not every model will have to pay for photos, and some will pay a ton.  But to say one thing is absolutely required is not true.

I don't recall saying that every agency model always had to pay for photos.  But many (most) will, and your claims that it isn't necessary are counter to that fact.

Yes, some models can sometimes get free tests.  Happy?

The point of paying a photographer is to get what you cannot get, and need, for free.  Since many models cannot get all that they need free, they pay.

NC17 wrote:
Here goes this whole models vs photographers investment arguement...
Its apples and oranges! What a model invests is DIFFERENT than what a photographer invests. Period.

There are serious models on the internet. I'd like to think that I am one of them. However, I was also taken under someone's wing (several people, really) and TAUGHT the skill of modeling. I continually work on it and strive to be better. For some reason its accepted that photographers need to learn their craft. They have to work hard to become good at it, and thats fine. The ones that don't and attempt to say they have usually get lashed well enough.

However, there is no such learning curve allowed for models. Apparently we're all just supposed to KNOW. New models are really put through the ringer, and nobody ever takes the time to give them a chance to get better. Thats not very fair. If no one has explained to a model that knowing what KIND of wardrobe looks good on you, knowing what kind of makeup looks good, knowing how to take care of your hair and body, knowing how to pose so that it flatters your body shape and hides any flaws and weaknesses then how is it fair to expect them to kno? Its important to gain those skills. But if no one takes the time to teach then models will continue to "work" based on assumptions and preconcieved notions about the industry.

A friend of mine was interested in getting into this. I set her up with a photographer I trust, and he shot her for a day and really opened her eyes to a lot of things that she wasn't aware of.

The investments that models and photographers make into this business shouldn't be compared. So long as models are doing their best, and photographers are doing their best, then that is all that matters.

BRAVO!!!! Well said.

Ryan6663 wrote:

But to say paying is required is also misleading and untrue.  Maybe i play devils advocate here, but not every model will have to pay for photos, and some will pay a ton.  But to say one thing is absolutely required is not true.

One of the big problems with 'free' shoots is that in many cases models don't
get the images they really need.  Quite often TFP or even Test shoots only
get you more TFP or Test shoots.  All the time spent by female models trying
to get free shots would often be better spent by paying a few of the better
shooters.  Note; for example all the bull many go through to get their free images.
One complained recently after shooting for hours she was given only three images.
Models don't need to waste time either.  Get a few basic snapshots done and
head to your local agencies.  Let them give you a list of shooters.  Spend the
$$$ and after if you want do Test/TFP shoots.  I'm not saying that amateurs
can't provide great work, many do.

KelseyAnn wrote:
I'm dedicated to modeling but I am also dedicated to school right now. I am as professional as I can be, we all have to cancel at some time for something, but I'm never a no show without at the very least a call. I get enough TFP work so I don't feel I should pay if I don't have to. Plus I always bring some of my own make up and clothes and ideas. I just want to make sure I make a good name for myself in the photgrapher circuit so no one will have any reason not to work with me. Unfortunately it seems some models give models in general a bad rap for being unprepared or a no show

The problem with a general statement is that it often becomes a one size
fits all thing.  There are SOME internet models who are serious and professional.
I think most are not for lots of reasons and photographers who expect it are
being naive.

Mitsukai wrote:
Sure I pay.

I pay travel costs. I pay my own travel expenses.
I pay for a new outfit for almost every shoot I do. Yeah, until I took a serious interest in nude modeling. It's great that I've been saving money for more travel arrangements for myself.
I pay for makeup. In the past, I worked with the makeup artists for creative processes with the good photographers on trades. Now I'm starting to hire local makeup artists for photo sessions. I understand why they need to get paid. Last spring I was an assistant to the infamous makeup artist (he's not on MM) for the deaf show and I felt that it was not right about him getting less paid than the standard rate he had. He must love working with the art program as much as I do. As an assistant, it was basically a lot of work. Oh yes, I'm so lazy to do makeup on my own and run off to buy more refill makeup products.
I pay by being professional. Yes.
I pay by taking the time out of my day to come to the photographer. Yes.
I pay by being there on time and doing what I need to do. Yes.

(Whispering) Clients have money.

PS: I'm also dedicated to school, work, traveling, and my family.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
The problem with a general statement is that it often becomes a one size
fits all thing.  There are SOME internet models who are serious and professional.
I think most are not for lots of reasons and photographers who expect it are
being naive.

Oh yeah, I just want you to know I'm one of the good ones! 

Emotive Photography wrote:
I must ask this question, which I am sure has been asked a time or two on this site, but regardless here goes.

Are internet model dedicated to modeling?  Are they willing to:

spend what is needed
do what is needed
work as needed
behave as needed
invest totally as needed

I hear how dedicated they are to modeling, as long as they do not have to pay anything LOL!  I ask because I find it troublesome how many models on these sites who are totaly unprepared when it comes to wardrobe, makeup or even keeping appointments.  I think that TFP allows models to take a easy path. 

Please take this for what it is worth.  I am not complaining, I am just wondering?

Surely you can't be serious with this question.  Obviously what medium a model takes up doesn't define his or her dedication or willingness to succeed on that point alone.

TFP is a hand-shaking deal that not only allows a model easier access to a photographer, but visa versa as well.

Hmmm.. Didn't Danni Ashe basically get her start as an internet model?

Lets take a look at reality for a second shall we?

Supermodel Giselle Bundchen will make a contracted $30+ mil. from 2004-08.
Thats about $7.5 mil. per each of the 4 contracted years.

Danni Ashe made over $1 million MORE than that in 1999 on her own accord, WITHOUT big advertising, contracts, and or television.  Not bad eh?

Heidi Klum? About $2.5+ mil. per annum with her Vict. Secret contract.
Hmm.. nice money, but still, even with the monetary "extras" she makes per year, no where near the money of Danni Ashe's annual income.

Kate Moss? $4-6 million per annum... about 1/2 as Danni Ashe per annum.

Mrs. Ashe owns, runs, and is business savvy.  I can't say the same for most supermodel's.  Basically, if they stop modeling, their income plummets.

Supposing a model's dedication based on his or her chosen medium is ridiculous.  We've photographed models for xyz store in the mall... know what?  Those models make about 1/4th what the typical "internet" model makes on a good day.

When you put apples to apples, it seems like the Internet models and such business entities do very well considering the medium.

Fact 1: Danni Ashe quite frankly makes more money per year than MOST supermodels.

Fact 2: Since most models won't ever be "supermodels" lets compare apples to apples again; Generally speaking "Internet" models, are pulling more cash into their purses than your typical model signed with some local agency doing the occasional commercial or clothing/product photoshoot.

Dedication, blah, blah, blah...   Reality check!  Modeling is all about "acting".  If you hate modeling, but you're able to LOOK like you love it, and get into the shoot and give the photographer and or what the paying customer is looking for-  then you're on the ball.  period.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

One of the big problems with 'free' shoots is that in many cases models don't
get the images they really need.  Quite often TFP or even Test shoots only
get you more TFP or Test shoots.  All the time spent by female models trying
to get free shots would often be better spent by paying a few of the better
shooters.  Note; for example all the bull many go through to get their free images.
One complained recently after shooting for hours she was given only three images.
Models don't need to waste time either.  Get a few basic snapshots done and
head to your local agencies.  Let them give you a list of shooters.  Spend the
$$$ and after if you want do Test/TFP shoots.  I'm not saying that amateurs
can't provide great work, many do.

Well that is a problem of the models not being selective with who they shoot with, i have never not gotten pics from a test shoot.

It is also possible that the girl only got three shots, because that is all the came out good.