C Wright Photography wrote:
But I do not shoot free tests (which I state clearly in my profile), so I guess what I was getting at I that if a model contacts me saying they want to shoot with me then I have to assume that they have in fact read my profile, looked at my pictures and then responded to inquire about my prices.  Silly me, thinking that if I write it out, people will understand. Thanks for your responses MM...

well think about it... a model with experience, and who has a good portfolio, would probably not pay for a photoshoot she does not need. a model with a less strong portfolio would not pay either... there are plenty of very good professional photographers who actually do do test shoots for free.

there are many photographers who in their profile say they do NOT do free test shoots and only accept paid work, but then they actually contact a model saying "hey, let's do a free test shoot". so, does that mean that he only accepts paid shots with models who are not at his professional level?

i myself have contacted photographers who do paid shoots. i tell them "i'd love to shoot with you", and don't mention anything about pay. then they write back "sure, let's do a test shoot (tfp)". and that happens beause we both will benefit from it.

if they tell me (which thankfully hasn't happened) "yes let's shoot, but there is a fee", i think to myself... "there are plenty of fish in the sea... and this photographer does not feel that strongly about me to begin with, otherwise he would have done a test shoot.... like he probably does with other models"

and i on the other side, personally REFUSE to be paid by a photographer. i love what i do. and they love what they do. so be it.

Mikel Featherston wrote:
Marry her... then she will be paiyng for it for the rest of her life.

No, then she will divorce him and he will be paying her the rest of his life!  LOL

Iris Swope wrote:
Dude, I think there's a thread about you!
https://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=87681
I don't know if it's really about you, but similar....

C Wright Photography wrote:
I dont think this is similar to me at all... did you read my threads and what I wrote? I value the fact that I have integrity in both my business and personal life. I am very clear about my prices and if a model is interested in working with me I let them know up front what the cost to them will be.  Thanks for the example and yes it is unfortunate for that model to have had to deal with someone trying to take advantage of her. Hope you have a great night. CW

I was just relating to the part where you said...

C Wright Photography wrote:
So I have noticed that models always say they are really impressed with my work, but they quickly lose interest when they discover I do not shoot free tests (or tfp). 
Cully Wright
[cwright]Photography

Which, seems to be pretty much what she said...

Nicoll wrote:
I was contacted by a photographer who wanted to set up a shoot. No mention of pay one way or the other was mentioned when he first contacted me, so I assumed he was wanting to do a TFP/CD shoot. I liked his portfolio, I was sort of interested in his ideas... We trade a few more emails, and then he slams me with a "And I'll need your $250 deposit no later than 10 days from now."

She was interested, until she found out she had to pay.
(And I doubt that it was actually several emails before he said that)

C Wright Photography wrote:
So I have noticed that models always say they are really impressed with my work, but they quickly lose interest when they discover I do not shoot free tests (or tfp).  I am wondering if I am wasting my days informing models on this site of my upcoming shoots in various cities, and explaining why they need professional pictures or something other than a shot of them holding their shirt up in a bathroom mirror.  Can someone please shed some light on my non profitable problem? 

Cully Wright
[cwright]Photography

Cully, You have some nice work.  It's commercial looking and I understand that you want to make some money at this fun thing that we all are involved with.  Sorry, but you will be starving if you expect to make your living off the models (especially here!)

Look at my work!  There are three methods of compensation ... and I do ALL THREE!  Sometimes I pay the models, or the models me, and then sometimes I TFP.  It all depends on factors like who is going to benefit most from the pictures, or who wants to "own" the rights, or who the client is, etc.   

I think you should reconsider your approach to making money at doing this thing called photography.  You can make money off selling your images as "stock" or you can seek clients who need images.  Depending completely on models to pay you is going to mean long periods of time with nothing to do.  I know that is a fact!  I shot weddings and portraits (.. almost went to shooting real estate!)  Now I own websites that I provide content for, I sell images to clients, and I try other venues of selling images that you may not have thought of.  You must be creative not only in your shooting but your marketing.  Then you will enjoy shooting models regardless if it's a project for you or someone else or TFP. 

You shoot with digital, right?  Then don't worry about it.  There are too many of us with digital cameras willing to shoot TFP, so if you wish to stay busy and keep your creativity sharp, you will shoot TFP!

Danella L. wrote:

well think about it... a model with experience, and who has a good portfolio, would probably not pay for a photoshoot she does not need. a model with a less strong portfolio would not pay either... there are plenty of very good professional photographers who actually do do test shoots for free.

there are many photographers who in their profile say they do NOT do free test shoots and only accept paid work, but then they actually contact a model saying "hey, let's do a free test shoot". so, does that mean that he only accepts paid shots with models who are not at his professional level?

i myself have contacted photographers who do paid shoots. i tell them "i'd love to shoot with you", and don't mention anything about pay. then they write back "sure, let's do a test shoot (tfp)". and that happens beause we both will benefit from it.

if they tell me (which thankfully hasn't happened) "yes let's shoot, but there is a fee", i think to myself... "there are plenty of fish in the sea... and this photographer does not feel that strongly about me to begin with, otherwise he would have done a test shoot.... like he probably does with other models"

and i on the other side, personally REFUSE to be paid by a photographer. i love what i do. and they love what they do. so be it.

WOW!  Danella, I love your attitude, AND your pictures!  I insist on paying models IF I am going to have sole use of their images for example posting on websites, etc.  However many of the models I work with like to have images for their own websites.  I sometimes get paid by models who wish to or need to OWN their images for their own website.  I do not use those images on my sites.  Then there are those who like to have me post on my site and they get to post on their too .. we are talking "Paysites" and we both get added promotional value from doing that!  Those shoots are quite often shared ownership, or an equivalent of "TFP!"

Anyway, I agree with you.  To me, it's more important to keep my calendar full than to worry about "getting paid" by the models.  If our calendars have some time available ... let's shoot!

brad miller wrote:
Once again... looking to models as your client base for paying work is a dead end and will never amount to a career. You HIRE models to shoot for real clients that will pay you both.

Actually, I don't totally agre with you.  I know many shooters in big markets like L.A. and NYC who make their living shooting portfolios and actor's headshots.  Like most parts of ths industry, the further you get from the bigger markets, the harder it is to make a living if you narrow what you are willing to shoot.

Likewise, like everything else in this business, photographers in big markets tend to fall into a niche'.  Most photographers who try to make a living doing portfolios only have a hard time breaking in, even in places like L.A.

That having been said, I have never considered sites like MM to be a good place to get work if you are looking for models to pay photographers.  It is much more of a networking site than marketing site for photographers.

Jay Bowman wrote:
And because there are a shit ton of guys willing to shoot that stuff for free, why would she ever want to pay you for imagery that, while it may be excellent and exactly what an agency wants, doesn't make her feel better than that bitch who beat her out for prom queen and she'll show her because now she can say she's a hawt moodle and Miss Homecoming Queen can kiss her ass and...

I see you've been here for a while . . . .

C Wright Photography wrote:
But I do not shoot free tests (which I state clearly in my profile), so I guess what I was getting at I that if a model contacts me saying they want to shoot with me then I have to assume that they have in fact read my profile, looked at my pictures and then responded to inquire about my prices.

Hey Cully,
Even thoujgh there are photographers on here who clearly state they do not work TFP, I have had the pleasure of working with them TFP. I'm sure I'm not alone.  So even though your profile clearly states you don't do it, experience has taught me there are countless exceptions.

C Wright Photography wrote:
So I have noticed that models always say they are really impressed with my work, but they quickly lose interest when they discover I do not shoot free tests (or tfp).  I am wondering if I am wasting my days informing models on this site of my upcoming shoots in various cities, and explaining why they need professional pictures or something other than a shot of them holding their shirt up in a bathroom mirror.  Can someone please shed some light on my non profitable problem? 

Cully Wright
[cwright]Photography

The simple fact is that while your work is outstanding...there are plenty of photographers on here on the same level that offer TFP. If you truly want to be paid, then stick to your guns and don't offer it. I think you will find that not a lot of models are willing to pay on this site.

Remember your market. Do you truly think those with camera phone pictures will actually become models? Of course not. Why on Earth do you think they will pay you? They think the pictures they have up are good enough...including the ones that GWC's take of them for free, and sometimes even pay THEM for. Therefore, I'm sure it seems illogical to pay a photographer, even someone of you caliber.

Your rates. How high are they? Some of the best photographers that I've shot with TFP do charge rates, and they are competitive. I'm amazed at how much some of these photographers charge. Frankly, some of their prices are too high and they should not wonder why no one will pay them. It works the same with models. I'm not going to ask for $500/hr for nude work when others are asking much lower...it's competitive shopping. You have to make you rates negotiable, and your overall package has to be stronger than every other photographers.

Along with shooting models that are paying you, what are you offering besides just photos? Prints? Contacts? Are you a frequent submitted to magazines they want to get in to?

There are three types of models on this site:

1. Camera phone/bathroom mirror/myspace models that won't amount to anything and think they're so amazing that they don't need to pay you when some photographers are paying them.

2. Those that are serious about their work and are willing to put down some money because they want to be successful

3. Those that are successful, and don't do TFP let alone pay photographers.

You can only market to group 2. And you're competing with plenty of others.

-D

C Wright Photography wrote:
So I have noticed that models always say they are really impressed with my work, but they quickly lose interest when they discover I do not shoot free tests (or tfp). Can someone please shed some light on my non profitable problem? 

Cully Wright
[cwright]Photography

Answer,

It starts with an illusion and most people will believe what there area friends say or post.

Needless to mention that the clown is giving away FREE photos just to build his cheerleaders up to boost his business and ego.


Share a studio with a few other photographers then hog all of the time with scheduleing an overabondance of FREE TFCD female models sessions as you build a
team  of  cheerleaders to defend your work and seek new models for paid sessions.

Have them  brag like never before on what an amazeing photographer you are.

Leave open tags written as if your God of all photographers and exsp[ect viewers to be really vandictive and belive anything.

Use big shot key words like " runway"   " Your studio"

BIG words " Call the studio " " OMP showcase"

Have that same crew of free TFCD models scare new talent to stay clear of others for such and such reasons while haveing control over the people in your area.

Make it seem like that once they have shot with you thats all they need in the industry.Then drop the TFCD session idea after one year of free photos  .
---------------------
I cannot thank you enough, but I'll try! lol. Thank you for inviting me this weekend and making everything possible. I had an awsome time. You're the greatest and coolest....too good to be true....*i'm pinching myself to try and wake myself up from this dream!* I can't wait to shoot with you -gosh i'm one hellofa lucky girl to be able to work with such a talented and professional photographer. Thank you once more for everything. You're the BEST!
------------------
Thanks a million for the shots!!!! I was so excited to see them, I didn't know which one(s) to pick! Imagine, if I had them all it would have been an all day adventure. Got any more? Because now you have me hooked!!!!! You're the best.

Models,
-------------------------------
You have to work with this man!  %%%^%*(   is one of the hottest photogs in the Detroit area! You are the man!

All the best!

TXPhotog wrote:
I see you've been here for a while . . . .

::snicker::


I little while, yeah...

Natalie Photography wrote:
you dont. Nobody want to pay anybody for anything on here.

Wrong I'd pay to be Bruice Talbots sand bag...
or Melvin Mortins rigger.
or Pat Johnsons camera case...
or Bob Randels floor sweeper.
or TX's reflector holder

Michael McGowan wrote:
If your business model is based primarily on getting models to pay you, you're destined to be broke and miserable.

yes, better to get a day job.

Iona Lynn wrote:

Wrong I'd pay to be Bruice Talbots sand bag...
or Melvin Mortins rigger.
or Pat Johnsons camera case...
or Bob Randels floor sweeper.
or TX's reflector holder

Maybe we could do a deal.  I had a chance to meet Bruce a couple of weeks ago.  Good guy.  Really good guy.  I'd pay to be the reflector holder while he shot you.

Iona Lynn wrote:
Wrong I'd pay to be Bruice Talbots sand bag...
or Melvin Mortins rigger.
or Pat Johnsons camera case...
or Bob Randels floor sweeper.
or TX's reflector holder

TXPhotog wrote:
Maybe we could do a deal.  I had a chance to meet Bruce a couple of weeks ago.  Good guy.  Really good guy.  I'd pay to be the reflector holder while he shot you.

And, while I have known TX for a long time, I met him in person for the first time recently.  So I am confused.

I know I saw someone holding your reflector.  Then I am sure I saw someone holding the case for the person holding the reflector.  Wouldn't Iona have to carry the water for the reflector holder's assistant?  The line behind you seemed awfully long already.

John Jebbia wrote:
By the way, I stumbled upon a model's portfolio last night and she had the following statement:

"I dont pay for photographers, any one whos a real model doesnt."

So, that's the prevailing attitude around here.

Did you catch that huge tat she's putting on her chest?  I guess that is what real models do.  Sigh.

Fortunately she's far enough from me in Texas that I won't have to deal with her particular kind of nonsense.

John Jebbia wrote:
By the way, I stumbled upon a model's portfolio last night and she had the following statement:

"I dont pay for photographers, any one whos a real model doesnt."

So, that's the prevailing attitude around here.

I'll bet that girl has camera phone pictures ala myspace....

Daniela V wrote:

I'll bet that girl has camera phone pictures ala myspace....

Oh crap.  I just saw this a little while ago.  And someone [Was it you?] left her a tag about it.  I forget already.  Hmph.

Wynd Mulysa wrote:
Oh crap.  I just saw this a little while ago.  And someone [Was it you?] left her a tag about it.  I forget already.  Hmph.

Nevermind - I found it again.

She actually has some beautiful photos, in my opinion.

Wynd Mulysa wrote:

Oh crap.  I just saw this a little while ago.  And someone [Was it you?] left her a tag about it.  I forget already.  Hmph.

I just looked at her profile.

*looks into crystal ball* Hmm- betcha this thread gets locked really fast.

She also states she's not into glamour yet she has a ton of glamour shots in her portfolio.

And she stats she has a tramp stamp.

TXPhotog wrote:

Fortunately she's far enough from me in Texas that I won't have to deal with her particular kind of nonsense.

It is funny that we all saw the same comment.  I have "no comment" oan the comment.

Daniela V wrote:
I just looked at her profile.

*looks into crystal ball* Hmm- betcha this thread gets locked really fast.

I always manage to ruin the fun, huh?

John Jebbia wrote:

I always manage to ruin the fun, huh?

Did I say that?

Wynd Mulysa wrote:
And she says she doesn't do nudity.

She has better things to do than show her goodies to a million strangers.

I saw her last night, when she was complaining about a supposedly fake MM profile. Too bad hers isn't fake.

John Jebbia wrote:
By the way, I stumbled upon a model's portfolio last night and she had the following statement:

"I dont pay for photographers, any one whos a real model doesnt."

She's 18. She's a child. She doesn't know any better.

At 18, I'm sure we've all said some of the most idiotic things that have ever escaped the lips of a human.

JM Dean wrote:
Now their supposed to read too lol.

Hell, half the people here can't spell, and don't know which pronoun to use when, and he wants them to be able to read? 

Why do you think they allow us to post the pretty pictures? 

John Jebbia wrote:
By the way, I stumbled upon a model's portfolio last night and she had the following statement:

"I dont pay for photographers, any one whos a real model doesnt."

Heh...I saw that one, too, and almost posted something about it, but decided it was a waste of time.  Back when I actually shot (briefly) to try to make money, a lot of people who wanted to be models paid for portfolio work.  It wasn't until I joined MM that I realized there are tons of women out there who think they're so beautiful the photographer would be nuts to ask for money. 

Of course, it doesn't bother me as much now, because I'm not making my living shooting.  And I'm interested in the models for what we can create together that I enjoy doing. So -- so far anyway -- I don't pay them; they don't pay me. 

-- rick

Studio Spike wrote:
I think it's like sex, guys are the ones that pay for it, not girls...because girls can get it anytime they want.  Anyone attractive enough to be a model is not going to have any trouble finding someone to shoot them for free.   Your work is nice enough but honestly, i know super-amazing-fantabulous photographers that do free tests,  i'm kinda suprised that you're expecting models to pay you.

I appreciate your response.  However outside this site I do get paid for my work. Plus my rates are the same no matter how attractive the model is.  I guess that is how some photographers shoot, but i guess that means I am not just any photographer.  I rarely do free tests and the exception to that is when I am working for a new agency that is testing me.  It is something that opens the door for me to recieve more work in the future.  Thanks for your comment, everyone is entitled to their view.  I do believe my work and its quality is always worth the rates I charge for it.  I cant say that about every photographer on this site, and I do not want you to take that the wrong way as I have yet to look at your portfolio.  Hope you have a great Saturday. Happy shooting. CW

Krisha wrote:

mmhmm deep wonderful pockets

Better than a warm fuzzy blanket, huh?

Afablb wrote:
Maybe because I am in Los Angeles its different for me. In assisting models develop a body of work I gather new faces, and these are the first that I draw upon when paid work comes my way. New models get some of their first paid gigs, I get new faces for gigs at a fair price (far below calling an agency) its win / win. Now that is not to say flakes do not abound, but after some time you learn how to flush these out with ease.

Outside of LA / New York any big city not sure MM will do much good ??
If your selling your ability as a photographer , hard to do on a site that allows anyone sign up for free. 

FA

Can I get a amen? This is very true. If it weren't for MM, many of these cities that I know of on here and off, I wouldn't even know of the talent that is coming from out of them because these cities outside of L.A. and NYC here in the States aren't even mentioned as a place to be in the fashion industry.


Here in the San Francisco area, you still do have a better chance of making in the fashion industry because it's very big here. Alot of it is do to this place being the most European like of any major city here in the country. But L.A. and NYC is the place to be.



Each city is different when it comes to marketing in photography. Detroit is a automotive city and you are going to see a fashion scene there that is marketable without a automobile connection. This is coming someone who use to assist photographers shooting cars and trucks in the studios for corporate companies and magazines.  Know your market or find a niche that works for you.

C Wright Photography wrote:
So I have noticed that models always say they are really impressed with my work, but they quickly lose interest when they discover I do not shoot free tests (or tfp).  I am wondering if I am wasting my days informing models on this site of my upcoming shoots in various cities, and explaining why they need professional pictures or something other than a shot of them holding their shirt up in a bathroom mirror.  Can someone please shed some light on my non profitable problem? 

Cully Wright
[cwright]Photography

Go get agency work.  MM is not exactly good for finding paid work.  If you have experience and a nice port, you shouldnt have  a probelm