Photographer
MODELPHX
Posts: 89
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Just kidding Jeff...here...take 5 bucks!
Photographer
Jeff Searust
Posts: 920
Austin, Texas, US
X West Media wrote:
Did you say you were "sitting in Drag?" lol ;-) hehe--no, On the Drag (Guadalupe St.)--But if I do the drag bit will I get more?
Wife yelling that she will promise to look homeless for 5 bux too...
Photographer
Harold Rose
Posts: 2925
Calhoun, Georgia, US
Ramucci Studios wrote:
Since alot of you photgraphers seem to know the "rules of the game", maybe you could lend me some input. I want to shoot an expose of homeless people around the city of Austin with the hopes of having a gallery showing... and if all went really well, maybe making a book out of it. Do I need to get model releases from the people I shoot? I will definately "ask" permission to shoot these folks, and probably give them each $5.00 for letting me take thier picture, which in thier world...is like $50.00! I will also spend some time with my subjects getting to know their name and hopefully their story. I know that a gallery showing and "selling" book are two different scenarios, but I would like to know if any of you know the applicable laws regarding shooting people in public places.
Any input is welcomed and thanks!
Cheers,
Scott With today's legal climate. Yes, and it is so bad sometimes that you need a photo of their ID have them hold a photo ID up by their face.. If you interview them usually a friendly conversation will make the cooperative.. Be real careful about underage.. parent's signature.. Pure news is less touchy, but going into a book makes it so I would do good record keeping...
Photographer
Harold Rose
Posts: 2925
Calhoun, Georgia, US
Ramucci Studios wrote:
Since alot of you photgraphers seem to know the "rules of the game", maybe you could lend me some input. I want to shoot an expose of homeless people around the city of Austin with the hopes of having a gallery showing... and if all went really well, maybe making a book out of it. Do I need to get model releases from the people I shoot? I will definately "ask" permission to shoot these folks, and probably give them each $5.00 for letting me take thier picture, which in thier world...is like $50.00! I will also spend some time with my subjects getting to know their name and hopefully their story. I know that a gallery showing and "selling" book are two different scenarios, but I would like to know if any of you know the applicable laws regarding shooting people in public places.
Any input is welcomed and thanks!
Cheers,
Scott I read down through and see some saying that you do not need a release.. Maybe no release to shoot them... but if you do anything with it you sure will. I know I am there.. Harold Rose
Photographer
Scott Ramsay Images
Posts: 112
Austin, Texas, US
On the Drag? Well that is funny, cuz that is where I am going to start as I work on the Drag. You guys are cracking me up...but also making me think. Lot's of information here, lots of informative links. I started this project in my mind as something I just wanted to do to capture amazing images as I work around these people everyday. Then (as I hope most photogs do) I thought of the bigger picture (no pun intended) and thought....hmmm...gallery showing? Then I thought...hmmm...a book? I sat there with a martini in hand and started brainstorming....I'll get to know my subjects, attach a story to some of the photos and see where this goes. The photos from Iraq, 9/11, Katrina....all moved me deeply. To look through your lens, and see such devastation of lifes and property...and be able to close your jaw and capture a moment in time...a terrible moment....but freeze framing this moment and bringing it to the people. To raise awareness, to move people to action or just to make someone think for just a minute, that thier own life, is not always as shitty as you think it is.
With these grandios ideas in mind, I will research this more with a lawyer and move on that advise. I really don't want to stop the moment and a heartfelt conversation...to say...okay...so I am some ass with a camera...sign this I am going to cheese you into 5 bucks while I go make a million. And by the way...5 bucks is a relative thing. What I feel at the time, the way the subject responds to me and my camera and my persona....I may offer this fine person 2 bucks, 30 bucks, a cheeseburger, a ciggerette or nothing. The moment in time will tel me what to do. Am I going to go to galleries and say, what is the going rate to photograph someone on the street? If it gets down to tearing this project apart into a bunch of rules and regs...I'll chuck the whole deal and keep shooting beautifiul women.
Again,
Thanks to all for all of the great input!
Cheers,
Scott
Photographer
studio36uk
Posts: 22898
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna
Ya know what? Forget the cash and just show up with your camera and a case of T-Bird or MadDog [20-20]
Studio36
Photographer
MODELPHX
Posts: 89
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Scott...just shoot and let the project develop itself!
Don
Photographer
Sylvio
Posts: 58
Los Angeles, California, US
Having shot âStreet Photographyâ for a 10 year period, in over 20 countries, I will share with you what I did, not legal advise or opinion. Mind you this was in the early 80âs. I shot 10âs of thousands of images during that time with the specific intent of commercial exploitation, as opposed to claiming to creating ânewsworthyâ or âphotojournalistâ images. I used what was called a âPocket Releaseâ which was a booklet of a 100 or so perforated, mini release forms that fit in your shirt pocket and was available at most camera stores. It read something like this:
Photographer - Sylvio Pennucci
Xxx xxx xxx
Xxx xxxx xx
Xxx-xxx-xxxx
For valuable consideration, Five (5) dollars, US, last 4 digits of serial # _ _ _ _ ,as payment in full, I hereby give the above photographer permission to use my picture and I authorize the use and reproduction of it by you, or anyone authorized by you. This includes any and all photographs which you have this day taken of me, for any purpose whatsoever, without further compensation to me. All negatives and positives, together with the prints shall constitute your sole property.
I am over 18 years of age. Yes _____ No _____
Name_______________________
Signature________________________________ Date____________________
Roll #_______ Frame # from________ to __________
At the time this was perfectly acceptable to editors, gallery owners, publishers, etcâ¦( I did however get asked by a couple of editors to clip the $5 bill to the release and take the 1st pic with the subject holding it up close to their face).
One other point I would like to mention, If this is your first time shooting âStreetâ please be careful, take the minimum gear with you, I suggest a waist pack. $10K worth of camera gear easily translates to $500-$1000 of drugs or cash.
Sylvio
Photographer
Vito
Posts: 4582
Brooklyn, New York, US
Let's not forget my favorite release/no release poster child.
The guy who (in NYC) shot people walking by his camera (i believe it was mounted on a scaffold). He PUBLISHED the photos in a book (that made him money). A Hassidac man (Orthodox Jew) was one of the subjects. He sued.....guess what....he Lost!
No release was obtained from any of the subjects.
Photographer
Sylvio
Posts: 58
Los Angeles, California, US
Vito wrote:
Let's not forget my favorite release/no release poster child.
The guy who (in NYC) shot people walking by his camera (i believe it was mounted on a scaffold). He PUBLISHED the photos in a book (that made him money). A Hassidac man (Orthodox Jew) was one of the subjects. He sued.....guess what....he Lost!
No release was obtained from any of the subjects. What do you think the Publisher and Photographers out of pocket expenses were to defend and "win" this lawsuit were?....more than $5 bucks??....sheesh!
Photographer
Michael Alan
Posts: 1499
Bayshore Gardens, Florida, US
Kinetic Photography wrote:
$5 is more than they had before you photographed them. As far as the release, I think it would be a good idea to get one. There are grey areas about public shooting a releases but I would suggest you get one. IMO, don't give them nothing at all. I shoot homeless/street people all over LA and IMHO these people will only spend it on drugs, bozz and at night while we are all sleeping many of them will be breaking the law.
DO NOT FEED THE ANIMALS!!! That just makes them come back..
REALLY!!
Photographer
Michael Alan
Posts: 1499
Bayshore Gardens, Florida, US
Sylvio wrote:
Having shot âStreet Photographyâ for a 10 year period, in over 20 countries, I will share with you what I did, not legal advise or opinion. Mind you this was in the early 80âs. I shot 10âs of thousands of images during that time with the specific intent of commercial exploitation, as opposed to claiming to creating ânewsworthyâ or âphotojournalistâ images. I used what was called a âPocket Releaseâ which was a booklet of a 100 or so perforated, mini release forms that fit in your shirt pocket and was available at most camera stores. It read something like this:
Photographer - Sylvio Pennucci
Xxx xxx xxx
Xxx xxxx xx
Xxx-xxx-xxxx
For valuable consideration, Five (5) dollars, US, last 4 digits of serial # _ _ _ _ ,as payment in full, I hereby give the above photographer permission to use my picture and I authorize the use and reproduction of it by you, or anyone authorized by you. This includes any and all photographs which you have this day taken of me, for any purpose whatsoever, without further compensation to me. All negatives and positives, together with the prints shall constitute your sole property.
I am over 18 years of age. Yes _____ No _____
Name_______________________
Signature________________________________ Date____________________
Roll #_______ Frame # from________ to __________
At the time this was perfectly acceptable to editors, gallery owners, publishers, etcâ¦( I did however get asked by a couple of editors to clip the $5 bill to the release and take the 1st pic with the subject holding it up close to their face).
One other point I would like to mention, If this is your first time shooting âStreetâ please be careful, take the minimum gear with you, I suggest a waist pack. $10K worth of camera gear easily translates to $500-$1000 of drugs or cash.
Sylvio LOL... Get real!!!
Street Photography is my thing. I have 1000,s of pictures of Melrose from 1980 until now, same with Hollywood Blvd and many of the nasty streets downtown(Wall, Broadway, 3rd, ).. These people have thrown cans, food and spit on us before. I do agree with your last sentance, the best way to shoot these type of people is to have a group with you and do not carry or leave your stuff laying near by...
Good luck!!
No release needed...
Photographer
Vito
Posts: 4582
Brooklyn, New York, US
Sylvio wrote:
What do you think the Publisher and Photographers out of pocket expenses were to defend and "win" this lawsuit were?....more than $5 bucks??....sheesh! First, they have lawyers on staff, second, the next case now has precendence.
Photographer
Ken Pivak Photography
Posts: 837
Los Angeles, California, US
I don't agree with this statement. To restrict an artist/photographer from showing his/her work is "censorship" and no law or threat of legal action can circumvant "freedom of speech."
If you offer payment, expect the person to come back later and demand more money, especially if the project is successful and making money. Homeless people have lawyers too.
It's just best to shoot, copyright your work with the US Copyright office and show your work. Artists and "freedom of speech" usually win out.
Also, why isn't this project considered "news" or "photojournalism." Look at the images coming from Iraq and the books that are on the shelf. When making a statement or commentary about social conditions, you are "reporting" and therefore protected by "freedom of speech" You don't have to work for a Newpaper to be a photojournalist!!
It's social commentary...pure and simple and you are protected....period! I think you need to do a little more research on this. News is news for newspapers and press...gallery shows and book sales are very different. You still need releases regardless.
Photographer
studio36uk
Posts: 22898
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna
X West Media wrote:
...When making a statement or commentary about social conditions, you are "reporting" and therefore protected by "freedom of speech" You don't have to work for a Newpaper to be a photojournalist!!
It's social commentary...pure and simple and you are protected....period! Pixel Fisher wrote:
I think you need to do a little more research on this. News is news for newspapers and press...gallery shows and book sales are very different. You still need releases regardless. I will firmly side with X West Media on this one as a trained journalist myself. Standing firmly between the news [immediacy, relevance and timeliness] and the gallery - book [no immediacy or necessarily timeliness but relevance] is documentary work. And documentary is protected as is any journalism.
One way, however, to slide just a bit to the dangerous side is commercialism in the use of an image. Courts seem to have held that, for use of an unreleased image WITHIN a book some flexibility on First Amendment grounds can be allowed; but where the same image might be used on the COVER of the book, as a mechanism to draw attention to it and invite it's purchase, the view may shift and be that that use goes too far towards straight commercial use and requires a release for the purpose. Similarly, a gallery showing of the body of work would be generally protected even if the works were unreleased; whereas an image used in the gallery promo materials for the show might be more akin to the book cover.
One needs to deal with both possibilities based on sound legal advice as to the limits beyond which one should not go with unreleased images. But it is not as ironclad as you may think, either way.
Studio36
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