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Model releases for shooting on the street?
Since alot of you photgraphers seem to know the "rules of the game", maybe you could lend me some input. I want to shoot an expose of homeless people around the city of Austin with the hopes of having a gallery showing... and if all went really well, maybe making a book out of it. Do I need to get model releases from the people I shoot? I will definately "ask" permission to shoot these folks, and probably give them each $5.00 for letting me take thier picture, which in thier world...is like $50.00! I will also spend some time with my subjects getting to know their name and hopefully their story. I know that a gallery showing and "selling" book are two different scenarios, but I would like to know if any of you know the applicable laws regarding shooting people in public places. Any input is welcomed and thanks! Cheers, Scott Oct 19 06 11:36 am Link Ramucci Studios wrote: The laws are different in some cities/states/provinces then others. Generally, it's wise to get releases from people who "pose" for you as a precaution. On the street, i.e. shooting street scenes which include people in a public place, releases are not necessary. Oct 19 06 11:39 am Link Ramucci Studios wrote: Oct 19 06 11:43 am Link You don't need a release to photograph people in most public places but I found your comment about the $5.00 you planned to give them to be in their world like $50.00 insulting. These are still human beings. Down on their luck or mentally ill but human beings like all of us and $5.00 is never like $50.00. Oct 19 06 11:47 am Link Sorry...I didn't mean to be insulting. I actually go out every year when it gets cold and bring them blankets and food. I had 5 bucks left in my pocket around Christmas last year....and gave it to a homeless man and said...I am sorry I only have $5 bucks and he said...brotha....this is like $50 bucks to me. This is where that came from. ~s Oct 19 06 11:55 am Link I thought that was a really rude statement as well. It seems like you care about them and want to tell their story in hopes of others wanting to help and then you throw a rude, condescending comment like that it. We all know they are poor- thats why theyre HOMELESS. You could pay them each 20.00 and not even miss it. ANYWAYS, I read your explanation and that's fine- I just thought a lot of what you said was rude. That being said- I really dont see a need for a model release form if they give you permission, are paid, and are more than happy to participate. Just my opinion. Sounds like an interesting project and I hope it all goes well! Oct 19 06 12:03 pm Link You really will need a release if you are going to make a profit on this book and showing you mention. Also, bump it to at least $50 for them since you will make money on the side. Don't want to end up like the "Bum Fights" producers did and lose millions later when a savvy lawyer starts talking to the homeless later and making a case against you. Oct 19 06 12:04 pm Link Tony Lawrence wrote: ...Unless you're in a third world country. Oct 19 06 12:06 pm Link $5 is more than they had before you photographed them. As far as the release, I think it would be a good idea to get one. There are grey areas about public shooting a releases but I would suggest you get one. Oct 19 06 12:08 pm Link I did something like this in NYC. I shot over 150 people in 2 days against a white background. (Very Avedonish) I had everyone sign a full release and had in writting that they would receive $1 or a 5x7 print. Only 4 people took the dollar!!! But everyone signed the release or I wouldn't shoot them! In NYC you have to get a permit to do the kind of shoot that I did in public spaces. For the second day I actually hung up 20x24 prints to show what the results would look like and had a little "show". I ended up using it for a promotional piece. If you want to check it out go to my webpage. www.chipmillerphoto.com "projects" Oct 19 06 12:11 pm Link It depends on what the homeless exchange rate is right now.... Now..get back on topic! Oct 19 06 12:12 pm Link Tony Lawrence wrote: Yuriy wrote: or homeless. Oct 19 06 12:18 pm Link Okay, my 2 cents and it's probably not going to be popular. I've never posted here but some of the comments got me "riled up". First, why would any of you be offended by his comment? It wasn't directed at who and had virtually nothing to do with you. It occurs to me that you telling him YOU were offended was being rude to him. He asked for your opinion, not your feelings. Second, if the guy is like me this is not necessarily what he does for a living. He does this on the side for one reason or another and works very hard for every penny he makes. How would you know whether he'd never even miss $20 or not? I miss every dollar I have to spend. If he gave $20 to every person on the street that appear in the image the poor guy would become one of them. Now on the question of the releases........ My understanding after researching this a bit is that images taken in open, public places don't necessarily require a release UNLESS the image is published and an individual's likeness is readily recognizable. Oct 19 06 12:19 pm Link There was a photog in NYC I believe that has done the same type of project, and did it quite well too. I think I found him/her on pbase.com. It could make for a good book if done well, and told a story behind the images. This photographer actually got to know his subjects and found some very interesting people from all walks of life. It was quite interesting to read, as well as some nicely done photos. Last time I gave a person in need $5.00, he asked for another dollar! damn ungrateful bastard... Oct 19 06 12:19 pm Link Thanks Michael, The topic is "model releases" not the 5 bucks....and I truly appreciate ALL of your input. I am not rude, and sometimes.....5 bucks seems like 50 to me! So....back to topic...I agree, a gallery showing is one thing....but if this were to become a book someday...then model releases would cover my butt. OR....maybe I don't....publish the book....get sued by multiple homeless people, go on the Today show and announce I am giving ALL proceeds of the book to the homeless shelter's here in Austin! Free publicity....and more proceeds for a very worthy cause! ;-) Oct 19 06 12:23 pm Link Ehren Howland wrote: You talking about me? :-) Oct 19 06 12:24 pm Link SI Photography wrote: Where do you get this stuff? Profit has nothing to do with the need for releases -- otherwise for-profit publishers like the NY Times and CBS News and all the rest would have to get releases for everything they run (and they don't). Oct 19 06 12:26 pm Link I'm not homeless, but $5 to me at this very moment would be like $500!! Paul Oct 19 06 12:27 pm Link Chip, Very cool project! Love your stuff and a great way to approach this! Cheers! Scott Oct 19 06 12:28 pm Link bang bang photo wrote: This is actually a good point. So where is the line drawn for "photojournalistic" shooting on the street? In this case could it be construed as "photojournalistic" or does that term only apply to a news type of publication? Oct 19 06 12:30 pm Link That is a great point. Newspapers and magazines are for sale. When Katrina hit....those folks were photographed and OBVIOUSLY didn't sign releases. But if you see People Magazine in the grocery store, and the photos compel you to buy....hmmmm. Intertesting point sir! Oct 19 06 12:34 pm Link Ramucci Studios wrote: No your words were $5.00 is like $50.00 in their world which suggests to me that Oct 19 06 12:44 pm Link Ramucci Studios wrote: One of the key words is "newsworthy" which is different than going out and taking recognizable photos of people and publishing them in a commercial vehicle. There are a variety of criteria, but simply taking a picture in public does not, in an of itself give you the right to exploit the likeness of another. Oct 19 06 12:44 pm Link bang bang photo wrote: News events and personal sale of book are 2 different things. Shooting a news story isn't the same. I work for Getty alot and shooting still of a mom holding her dead baby at a crime scene and ends up in the paper, is news. Image ending up in an ad for gun sales to protect your kids from thugs, is porfit. Just get the release, CYA - Cover Yo Ass! Oct 19 06 12:50 pm Link Don't be surprised if you review the releases later and find them signed by the likes of Donald Duck; or Bo Selecta. A lot of street people are NOT going to tell you their real name. No way, and for all kinds of reasons. There is also an issue of street people having a higher incidence of mental problems v the general population... some others will be under the influence of drink or drugs or both... so how good is a release signed by someone who might arguably not be of sound mind [or under the influence] or otherwise functioning sufficiently within the real world to understand what they are signing? Not much if it comes to the crunch. By all means you might seek some legal advice if you see it as a potential problem [I would]... but you might just as well not plan on relying on such releases either. Studio36 Oct 19 06 01:33 pm Link Michael Kirst wrote: Yes to the first part [as social documentary] no to the second part [the term is not narrowly limited] Oct 19 06 01:46 pm Link Can someone tell me why everyone wants to shoot homeless people? Actually, I'll start another thread. Oct 19 06 01:48 pm Link Thank you all for the sound advise and very good input...Alan I will read the links...gracias. I will just say this for the record. This is my first post on MM...and there are alot of good people on here that actually respond to the questions asked. I have read so many threads where it immediately turns into a bashing, your morals aren't sound, you are rude, you are ignorant, he said this, she said that....blah blah blah. I truly thought about not putting up a post for that very reason, but then I thought....why not write a few words about the project....and within minutes...I am being accused of being rude? I was actually laughing because this forum is so predictable! Then, I write a few words to explain why I said what I said about the 5 freakin bucks line....and still the replies com in talking about what...the one line I wrote that really had nothing to do with my question! I digress and will refrain from posting anymore...or choose EVERY SINGLE WORD very carefully. To all that actually responded with great input...I thank you all. Cheers, Scott Oct 19 06 01:49 pm Link If a person is a "face in the crowd" no release is needed. If you're doing an individual portrait, get a release so you can prove the person was compensated. Also, you can base your compensation on what you plan to do with proceeds from the book. Are you donating to a charity to benefit these people or will the up-front payment be the only help they can get from your project? Oct 19 06 01:56 pm Link Ok...all of you...wrong, wrong, wrong. Street photograhy. If you have at least three people in a photograph, then you don't need a release to use the photograph commercially. As an artist, you are allowed to photograph anything you want as long as it does not jepordize national security or invade privacy. A homeless person has given up their right to privacy if they live on the street. Courts have ruled that the "homeless" because of their circumstances have no claim to privacy. So if you want to do an exhibit or create a book which demonstrates your skills as a photographer you are well within your rights to do so. That's not to say, a relative of the homeless person and their lawyer may take you to court because they disagree. If you photograph the homeless, then treat them with respect! If they object, then don't shoot. If you want to pay them money, then do so and have a witness with you when you pay them and get a release. You can't however sell any image for commercial purposes, like to an advertiser or Homeless advocate for a poster, without a release. Go to ASMP.org and search for the law. Good luck. Don Oct 19 06 01:59 pm Link One thing is clear. If you don't get a release, it could be a problem. So, why not get one? Seems like a good insurance policy to me. Also, many publishers will feel the same way. They like their butts covered too. Oct 19 06 02:04 pm Link Thank you Don. As I said earlier....I bring the folks warm clothes and food in the wintertime and do care about humans that are less fortunate than others...I respect anyone's right to privacy and would want to speak with almost everyone I photograph to get "the story" behind their misfortune should they want to share it with me. Thanks again.... Cheers Oct 19 06 02:06 pm Link X West Media wrote: Don, you just completely contradicted yourself. Everyone agrees that you are free to shoot anyone who is in a public place (with certain limitations such as shooting up a skirt). They indeed have waived portions of their right to privacy, and that applies to the homeless as well. Oct 19 06 05:02 pm Link Alan from Aavian Prod wrote: You are absolutely right, but not on the contradiction part. I forgot about the right to publicity or the right of an individual to control his/her own image. (and I just re-read my book on copyrights, etc.) Thanks for pointing that out. Oct 19 06 05:11 pm Link Yes you need a release form...just because they may be homeless doesn't make them less of a person who shares all the same rights we do. Especially with your intent for a book and a gallery show...a gallery will not even take the show unless it's all produced lawfully. Be safe...the people are not there because they want to be and they not dumb either. I also feel that the sum you mentioned is low. I would start with $25 to $50 for starters. Also you may want to research all the other photographers who have created for the same concept and perhaps you can ask them how they produced their show. It never hurts to ask. Ask a gallery or museum curator and see what they say. I think searching for answers here will not get you all the pieces...go to the places you wish to work with and ask them. good luck, PixelFisher Oct 19 06 05:19 pm Link X West Media wrote: I am curious about that rule. Can you show me where you saw it? I am not saying that it might not be true in some localities, it isn't universal though. Check out the California statute, for example: Oct 19 06 05:33 pm Link Alan, I didn't read the entire CA civil code,but under (photograph) para b. sections 2 and 3, especially #3 pretty much covers what I said, on the street, 3 people is considered a group, where the group is the focus and not just one individual. This rule was taught to me in Photo Law, 26 years ago in Photograhy school and again when I got my BA in Media production. Then again, California does like to write some interesting laws. Also, consider the FEDEX truck on the street, with a crowd of people walking on Law and Order. That is a product placement and is considered commercial. Also, when dealing with property releases, you can take a picture of someone's horse or barn, as long as the subjects contribute to the overall effect of the image. ie. a kentucky landscape and can sell that image commercially without a property release. But, as I was always taught...get a release if you can, but the minute you ask, expect someone to ask for money. Oct 19 06 05:50 pm Link Pixel Fisher wrote: I don't agree with this statement. To restrict an artist/photographer from showing his/her work is "censorship" and no law or threat of legal action can circumvant "freedom of speech." Oct 19 06 05:56 pm Link Ramucci Studios wrote: I am sitting out on the Drag near 24th right now with a sign that says "Will pose for 5 bux" Oct 19 06 06:00 pm Link Jeff Genung wrote: Did you say you were "sitting in Drag?" lol ;-) Oct 19 06 06:01 pm Link |
