BeccaNDSouth wrote:
If you clearly stated in your e-mail to this person as to what was offered (pay, photos, etc.), then she was in the wrong to come back with a counter-offer to try and get more out of the shoot. She should keep in mind that this is the modeling industry, and not real estate...things work differently than she may have wanted them to.

With her being an amateur, though, I'm sure she will learn from this...atleast, I hope she learned from the experience, and will know that in the future when a photographer offers pay then she shouldn't be so picky.

NC17 wrote:

You know, as a model, it gets really sickening to hear a photographer talk in such a condescending tone towards models. I don't give a crap that your equipment is worth so much, that has NOTHING to do with the fact that I model, and attempting to use that as an excuse when dealing with paying models is a pretty crappy way to treat someone.

The pure and simple fact is that it doesn't matter how much your equipment is worth, without the model you have NO shot to sell. I doubt that your clients would appreciate a nice pretty landscape as much.

I've heard this a lot lately, and the trouble is that its apples to oranges. The cost and "effort" put into photography is entirely different than the cost and effort put into modeling. It can not be compared, and attempting to do so puts the model unfairly on the short end of the stick. The fact of the matter is that as a photographer you are up the creek if you don't have a model. So its very wise to respect the effort that the model does bring to the table for what it is, no matter how minimal it might seem next to your monumental equipment bill. Without the model, you have no way to pay your bills.

To the OP: Your profile states that you treat your models "with absolute respect and professionalism." Your post here, whether "blowing off steam" or not, speaks volumes about your real attitude towards those that you are hiring. You might want to consider that before you blow off some steam next time.

I'm going to have to agree with NC17 on this one. I agree that the model you attempted to hire wanted to get paid unreasonably. But can you really blame someone for trying? She's obviously new, as several of you have stated, maybe she's just trying to get a feel for what she IS worth? Saying "No" is good enough, posting in the forum is on the disrespectful side.

Why should if bother you THIS much that she simply asked if you would pay her more? Tell her you can't. If she wont model unless you do, then move on to another model.

FYI- models DO MORE than just show up for a shoot. Most models put alot of time, work, and money into the shoot on a constant basis. You may not see it because it's what they do BEFORE the shoot. Especially if they dont have agents and are doing this all on their own. For example Hair, MakeUp, EXERCISE, Clothes, Skin Products, Hair products. Beauty doesn't come easily and all these things add up on a day to day basis.

I'm not saying that Either person deserves more. There needs to be a good photographer AND a good model to make a marketable photo that (just as nc17 stated) isn't a picture of a tree. So DONT bring down all internet models because one girl decided to try her luck and simply ASK YOU if you would pay her more.

I guess instead of posting that you respect models you should post that you are an inconsiderate and closed minded photographer who doesn't think a person has the right to TRY to make a better living. My point is that this post is uncalled for, it is unfair for you come off as if models are lazy and undeserving just because someone asked for a better pay.

studio36uk wrote:
I split the reply to your post because this is a completely different question. Compensation on paid work is negotiated. Fine. Negotiate. But for God's sake get to the friggen point and reach an end to it. What should NEVER be negotiated with the MODEL as opposed to the genuine CLIENT is any element of the IP rights... and it is apparent that just too many net models are trying to do that. They then get all whiny when it's not gonna happen with photographers that have two or more functioning brain cells.

Where a client BUYS rights they BUY the rights. The models, on the other hand, and especially net models, seem to be demanding that they [IP rights and even © ownership] just be handed over... and I am including these open-ended residuals demands too. Screw that. They get paid, they walk away with their check, end of story. I market the work and I walk away with my pay check... nothing to do with the model at all ! I am not going to chase up models for years to come to present them with $10 or $15 payments because I sold one of their pictures at a garage sale.. That kind of s**t is just too silly to even consider.

Studio36

I agree and I would just let that stuff and not let it work me up.  I think the reason the models want those rights is for some reason they think that if the photo somehow makes thousands of dollars, it'll be BECAUSE of them.  And that would be true IF they were famous.  Tom Cruise couldn't demand millions and a percentage of box office receipts when he first started out.  He'd been laughed out of the studio and his part would go to someone else.  But now, having Tom Cruise in a movie practically gaurantees a certain amount of box office sales because a LOT of people will be seeing the movie BECAUSE he's in it.  Crappy movie + Tom Cruise = lots more money than if he wasn't in it.  In that sense, his demands are fair.

Sooooo, when it comes to no name models and a artist photographer making thousands of dollars, it's likely going to be due to the vision of the artist and not the model.  In those scenarios, almost any dime-a-dozen model will do.

In the end, I still stand by my statement in that I do not know why photographers allow themselves to get worked up over petty issues like this.  I'd save this for when you're having fun with a like-minded individuals.  Bringing it up in a forum that has as much diversity as it does will only end up being a disservice to yourself as people may perceive you as a whiner, troublemaker, diva, difficult, etc.  Kind of like the people that admit that they still shoot film. You're just asking for people to flame you.

Raven Photography wrote:

Yep I know it happens but I cant believe a model thinks she would get that from any photographer. Like any photographer I have eqiupment worth a LOT. I would also be finding the location taking up time and effort and all she does is arrive with her escort and a few g-string bikini's.

She needs to do the math.

Just letting of some steam. Need to wait for my 5 other models to contact me now.

I would split it with her if.. Why be greedy..

studio36uk wrote:
What should NEVER be negotiated with the MODEL as opposed to the genuine CLIENT is any element of the IP rights... and it is apparent that just too many net models are trying to do that. They then get all whiny when it's not gonna happen with photographers that have two or more functioning brain cells.

However, it's not the model that I see starting the thread to "get all whiny when it's not gonna happen".

No matter how good the OPs port is, after seeing this thread, I'd never work with someone so unprofessional to go about bad-mouthing models that he did not see eye to eye with.  He's all but said that we're disposable.

In fact, you said that we are all the same.  Check out some portfolios on here, we are definitely NOT all the same.  Some gals got it for the specific job you are looking for, and sometimes just any ol' gal in a bikini isn't gonna work for you, even though she is a model as well.

Kali Doom wrote:
However, it's not the model that I see starting the thread to "get all whiny when it's not gonna happen.
we are definitely NOT all the same.

well said, this guy is the one coming off as a joke. should I start a thread...
gwc!!!!!!! what a Joke!!!!!!!!!!
no it's immature and a waste of time. You seem very new to the business to be so caught off gaurd. No it's not real estate but if you an established model, or actor, than it's your agent arguing for more money. maybe she didn't approach the matter the right way but just relax and find something else to write about.

DigitalCMH wrote:
Kind of like the people that admit that they still shoot film. You're just asking for people to flame you.

Guess what. 

Studio36

Michael Alan wrote:
I would split it with her if.. Why be greedy..

Why not just give her your first born too?

Why be greedy?

Studio36

X West Media wrote:
I just started with MM and already I am getting some really unrealistic demands.
Don

Welcome to MM Don. Don't get discouraged. Hang around for a while... YOU AIN'T SEEN NOTHIN YET!!!

Studio36

KathyJean wrote:
Partial Quote:  " ... TFP for every women willing to wear a bikini or mini skirt no matter if she looks like King Kong.  She's willing to wear a thong. ..."   How true.

Personally, I avoid thong - on Kong days...

( ANT ) Mgaphoto wrote:
If a model wants money plus half of what you make then move on! There are many professional models who do stock shoots all the time and understand that they make their money from the shoot and that is all. I think some girls who have not modeled much don't understand the industry that well, or get bad advice from "managers online" or boyfriends and really hurt themselves in the long run.

Agreed! I have done various stock shoots and the arrangement is that I get paid for the shoot and nothing else. sometimes however, the photogs do agree to pay royalties on the images sold or utilised commercially, etc... But that would be stated in the contract should such an agreement take place...

Poor girl, still has lots to learn...

Kali Doom wrote:
In fact, you said that we are all the same.  Check out some portfolios on here, we are definitely NOT all the same.  Some gals got it for the specific job you are looking for, and sometimes just any ol' gal in a bikini isn't gonna work for you, even though she is a model as well.

Well you have to understand where I come from in this... the print publishing industry. And I have never, ever seen a photo in a layout, especially working with stock images but also celebrity images too, that couldn't be dumped [spiked] and replaced by another similar one of someone else or of the same person from another source.

Unless a picture of model "A" in a swimsuit, or what ever else they are wearing [or not] is also of a person with a PARTICULAR claim to fame, or name recognition, or notoriety then I could just as soon, and literally in a heartbeat, change it for a picture of model "B" in a swimsuit. 99.99999% of the models here, and on the web generally, wouldn't have the quality of being indispensable to any publisher... or for the most part to any other client either.

Nobody cares. There I said it. It doesn't matter if it's you or another model. It just doesn't. Model A = model B = model C.

Studio36

KathyJean wrote:
Partial Quote:  " ... TFP for every women willing to wear a bikini or mini skirt no matter if she looks like King Kong.  She's willing to wear a thong. ..."   How true.

Anjel Britt wrote:
Personally, I avoid thong - on Kong days...

A Kong in a thong is just plain wrong.

Studio36

Tony Lawrence wrote:
DigitalCMH, has made a great point.  I understand that sometimes people are just
ranting and blowing off steam.  Many times posters who seem to be nasty are
really cool people but they let their tempers get the best of them.  So instead of
thinking about where a post will go, they post away and get crushed.  I created
a thread a while back where I ranted about what I considered a foolish model
who called me rude for saying to her I wouldn't call her back until she called.
Boy did I get chewed out for that one.  I didn't become defensive I took my
shoe leather and crow and said I was wrong.  I'm not saying the OP was wrong
mind you like many issues its a matter of personal view.

Thats the trouble that I see here... I wouldn't ever let off steam here in these forums. In my own journal where people *outside* the industry can read it, YES. But not in a place where I could be exposing myself to the next photographer that just MIGHT want to hire me. The reverse is just as easily true - photographers that use these forums to blow off steam can easily be influencing the opinions of potential models that they might need or want to work with.

Letting off steam is pretty important, you've just gotta do it in a place thats smart - not one that has potential business contacts.

studio36uk wrote:
Unless a picture of model "A" in a swimsuit, or what ever else they are wearing [or not] is also of a person with a PARTICULAR claim to fame, or name recognition, or notoriety then I could just as soon, and literally in a heartbeat, change it for a picture of model "B" in a swimsuit. 99.99999% of the models here, and on the web generally, wouldn't have the quality of being indispensable to any publisher... or for the most part to any other client either.

Nobody cares. There I said it. It doesn't matter if it's you or another model. It just doesn't. Model A = model B = model C.

Studio36

Yes, models are "interchangable." HOWEVER that gives NO cause to treat them as anything less than humans that are STILL important to your projects. It doesn't matter how interchangable they are respect is respect is respect. THAT is the issue. Knowing and understanding that as a model is important. Thats what gives you the edge over another model is learning how to work so that you do have something different to bring to the table. And knowing that we're all the same in the end is what keeps us from taking it personally when yet another photographer blows us off.

The model that the OP referenced was obviously new and had some misconceptions about the modeling industry. Who doesn't when they first start out? How is it fair to her to thrash her (unknowingly) for something that she wasn't aware of? How can it be a mistake if she had no prior knowledge to prevent the mistake from happening? One can't make mistakes when one hasn't yet learned the knowledge. After knowledge is gained, thats a different story.

Frankly, as interchangable as models are, its surprising that photographers haven't realized the same is true of themselves.

NC17 wrote:
Frankly, as interchangable as models are, its surprising that photographers haven't realized the same is true of themselves.

Well you can't hit me with that particular guilt trip... I will always admit that I have had people working for me, or students I was working with, that were technically superior to me in some, or even many, respects. That's no secret around my shop.

Studio36

Raven Photography wrote:
I sent 6 messages out to models in which I would be paying them cash in hand for a bikini shoot to which I also told that I am hoping to license and sell some of the images in the future as with all my photo's and photo shoots I do.

And she said this "If you sell the images, I would be
expecting half of what it sold" !!!!!!!!!!!!

Including pay this model doesn't have a clue !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

She's Gone !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Be nice.

That type of trade off is very common IF the model were doing a TFCD shoot.

Point of order, Mr. Chairman.

It is not common. It happens and it happens far more often than it should, but it is not, in my experience or the experience of the twenty or so models I've discussed the topic with, the norm or anything close to it.

M

studio36uk wrote:

Well you can't hit me with that particular guilt trip... I will always admit that I have had people working for me, or students I was working with, that were technically superior to me in some, or even many, respects. That's no secret around my shop.

Studio36

Not so much suprerior as just like the next guy in line. Its rare to find someone that creates an image that is unique and makes one stop and look twice. Same is true of models, how often does an image actually make you stop and look again. Probably not very often. I suppose its sad... but that is the state of the industry that is broad enough that anyone can get into it on some level.

studio36uk wrote:

And what do you want to bet that even if you did negotiate something with her on pay, she would have still have shown up and wanted changes made to the release too? And travel expenses for her and her "escort"? And pre-approval rights? And overnight accommodation in a 5 star hotel; And a free friggen lunch? And........and...........

Studio36

Yes never thought of that. Having trouble with her signing the release and out of nowhere her wanting more changes made. Glad I'm not going to be working with her.

RED Photographic wrote:
Have you ever thought about using an agency?  Your stuff is good, so it's not as if you'd be wasting your money.  Try one, they're not as expensive as you might think, and you do get professionals who turn up on time and don't come with baggage.

Sorry I don't understand what you mean. I use to work for an agency as their studio photographer (although only for a week to replace their original photographer who went on a weeks holiday) but you seem to be talking about something different.

Since you speak of paying the agency. It sounds like you speak of them bringing jobs to you. Is this correct ?

thank you for your compliment on my work also.

_Tasha_ wrote:

do you feel better now?

Yes thanks. Concentrating on other models now.

NC17 wrote:

.

To the OP: Your profile states that you treat your models "with absolute respect and professionalism." Your post here, whether "blowing off steam" or not, speaks volumes about your real attitude towards those that you are hiring. You might want to consider that before you blow off some steam next time.

I do treat my models with absolute respect and professionalism. After her stating her fee per hour she then emailed me saying ' I EXPECT' half the cost of sales. This is her unprofessional attitude towards me. So who is the 'real' one being unprofessional ?

You are no judge on my professional attitude towards models by the way as you haven't worked with me before and probably havent even spoken to the models I have worked with.

After the models final email. I politely explained that I don't give models what she 'expected' and wished her the best of luck in her modeling career. This is professionalism.

Also the fact that I didnt state the models name is 'my' high regard for the potential she has as a model and how I don't wish to tarnish her name or career as a model.

Stacy wrote:
I'm going to have to agree with NC17 on this one. I agree that the model you attempted to hire wanted to get paid unreasonably. But can you really blame someone for trying? She's obviously new, as several of you have stated, maybe she's just trying to get a feel for what she IS worth? Saying "No" is good enough, posting in the forum is on the disrespectful side.

Why should if bother you THIS much that she simply asked if you would pay her more? Tell her you can't. If she wont model unless you do, then move on to another model.

FYI- models DO MORE than just show up for a shoot. Most models put alot of time, work, and money into the shoot on a constant basis. You may not see it because it's what they do BEFORE the shoot. Especially if they dont have agents and are doing this all on their own. For example Hair, MakeUp, EXERCISE, Clothes, Skin Products, Hair products. Beauty doesn't come easily and all these things add up on a day to day basis.

I'm not saying that Either person deserves more. There needs to be a good photographer AND a good model to make a marketable photo that (just as nc17 stated) isn't a picture of a tree. So DONT bring down all internet models because one girl decided to try her luck and simply ASK YOU if you would pay her more.

I guess instead of posting that you respect models you should post that you are an inconsiderate and closed minded photographer who doesn't think a person has the right to TRY to make a better living. My point is that this post is uncalled for, it is unfair for you come off as if models are lazy and undeserving just because someone asked for a better pay.

Posting on the forum is not disrespectful at all since I didn't mention her name did I ?

And who said anything about the model being lazy ? Not me. You clearly didnt read my post very well did you.

Lora wrote:
If something that insignificant can make you that upset, I'd hate to see you when you get a no-show.

Thats what back up models are for.

X West Media wrote:
I just started with MM and already I am getting some really unrealistic demands.  A lot of models call themselves "experienced" but they can't provide you with actual magazine tearsheets.  Only those generated by photographers they TFP'd with. 

Don

Briefly changing the topic of this thread. I agree there are many models on this site that call themselves 'experienced' when there not in the slightest.

Kali Doom wrote:
No matter how good the OPs port is, after seeing this thread, I'd never work with someone so unprofessional to go about bad-mouthing models that he did not see eye to eye with.  He's all but said that we're disposable.

In fact, you said that we are all the same.  Check out some portfolios on here, we are definitely NOT all the same.  Some gals got it for the specific job you are looking for, and sometimes just any ol' gal in a bikini isn't gonna work for you, even though she is a model as well.

Thanks for the comment on my port

By the way I didnt say models were disposable. Again another person who didn't read my posts properly.

Trev Tommasi wrote:
well said, this guy is the one coming off as a joke. should I start a thread...
gwc!!!!!!! what a Joke!!!!!!!!!!
no it's immature and a waste of time. You seem very new to the business to be so caught off gaurd. No it's not real estate but if you an established model, or actor, than it's your agent arguing for more money. maybe she didn't approach the matter the right way but just relax and find something else to write about.

Again another person who has is talking to me yet speaks of another persons posts. You might want to read more carefully next time.

By the way this thread isnt called 'General Mayhem' for nothing. People can discuss whatever is related in general to our industry.

And I am relaxed now thank you.

Iona Lynn wrote:
Cash in hand huh?
I have read through two pages and not seen a single number posted.

Some photograher for calandar jobs have offered me:
TFP, Some undisclosed amount(they didn't wish to tell me), 400.00 a day,

So I don't think that anyone can make a valid cpmplaint unless we know what exactly was offered...

Iona like any photo shoot between photographer and model on this site. The fee whoever is being paid 'photographer' or 'model' is not discussed in public nor for everyone to read. This is called professionalism and good business.

3rd Floor Photography wrote:

Be nice.

I was polite actually as I previously stated. Repeating myself. 'She gave me her fee per hour then came back with 'I EXPECT half of sales'. I politely explained to her that I dont give ANY model what she 'expected' and wished her the best of luck in her career.

And again as I stated I have not mentioned the models name since she makes a good model and has great potential in her career.

See I was nice

Raven Photography wrote:
I do treat my models with absolute respect and professionalism. After her stating her fee per hour she then emailed me saying ' I EXPECT' half the cost of sales. This is her unprofessional attitude towards me. So who is the 'real' one being unprofessional ?

as many do, you confuse being direct with being unprofessional.  every negotiation has expectations.  it's actually an advantage in the negotiation process to know them as quickly as possibly. 

rather than taking that information as a point to move forward you tossed it aside.  the model may have lost the project due to that, but you did as well by throwing an opportunity away for working with one of first choice.  so you not only lost the model for the project, you lost an opportunity to hone your negotiation skills that will serve you well beyond this shoot.  something to think about.

--face reality

Stacy wrote:

NC17 wrote:
FYI- models DO MORE than just show up for a shoot. Most models put alot of time, work, and money into the shoot on a constant basis. You may not see it because it's what they do BEFORE the shoot. Especially if they dont have agents and are doing this all on their own. For example Hair, MakeUp, EXERCISE, Clothes, Skin Products, Hair products. Beauty doesn't come easily and all these things add up on a day to day basis.

What a bunch of crap. Are you saying that models would not wear clothes, wash their face and hair, wear make-up if they where not models? Give me a break, we all know they do this anyway... How else would they find a husband?

Models were models before they were models...