lavive wrote:
So what she wanted did suit what you were willing to pay.  So she doesnt get the contract...happens all the time.

Yep I know it happens but I cant believe a model thinks she would get that from any photographer. Like any photographer I have eqiupment worth a LOT. I would also be finding the location taking up time and effort and all she does is arrive with her escort and a few g-string bikini's.

She needs to do the math.

Just letting of some steam. Need to wait for my 5 other models to contact me now.

Raven Photography wrote:
Yep I know it happens but I cant believe a model thinks she would get that from any photographer. Like any photographer I have eqiupment worth a LOT. I would also be finding the location taking up time and effort and all she does is arrive with her escort and a few g-string bikini's.

She needs to do the math.

Just letting of some steam. Need to wait for my 5 other models to contact me now.

And I suppose looking good costs nothing. There's more to modeling than stripping down to a g-string. If it were that simple and easy, everyone would be a model.

Plus you're intending to profit from her image. She's perfectly in the clear to try to negotiate for more, and you're perfectly in the clear telling her no. But to whine about it and use the oh-my-equipment-is-so-expensive-justification is just flat out annoying.

Kelly Kooper wrote:
Hmmm...was the model experienced or an amateur? That type of trade off is very common IF the model were doing a TFCD shoot. That being the case, she generally signs a release that states she expects to be paid should any of the images ever be sold and as long as those terms are abided by both parties, they should be no problems. If the model was getting paid upfront, that usually waives any rights they have to be paid later on. It sounds like this model has spoken to an agency, gathered info on how they claim payment and used the same conditions when negiotiating payment for her freelance modeling. As we all know, agency fees are ridiculously high and usually incorporate a rather large fee upfront that can also be contracted into an ongoing payment if it's for commercial use for an extended period of time. It seems to me that this girl has heard about this type of payment and is trying her luck. Would be interested to know how she rationalises it though...

Would be very interesting to see how she rationlized it. She's an amateur. And she was getting paid in cash. Yes I believe she was doing just that speaking to someone for advice and then 'trying her luck' !

I've now sent emails to 11 other models and got one reply besides hers back from a VERY professional model with the g string bikini''s I need for my shoot and she's fantastic but still waiting to see how much other models charge me.

BlindMike wrote:

And I suppose looking good costs nothing. There's more to modeling than stripping down to a g-string. If it were that simple and easy, everyone would be a model.

Plus you're intending to profit from her image. She's perfectly in the clear to try to negotiate for more, and you're perfectly in the clear telling her no. But to whine about it and use the oh-my-equipment-is-so-expensive-justification is just flat out annoying.

Yep my answer was definitely 'no' politely stated however.

( ANT ) Mgaphoto wrote:
If a model wants money plus half of what you make then move on! There are many professional models who do stock shoots all the time and understand that they make their money from the shoot and that is all. I think some girls who have not modeled much don't understand the industry that well, or get bad advice from "managers online" or boyfriends and really hurt themselves in the long run.

Yes my point exactly. There are professional models out there who accept pay, sign the model release and then move to there next job.

And yes she really has hurt herself as she just lost a cash in hand job of no small amount. If she does this to other photographers her career will get no where.

Kelly Kooper wrote:
Hmmm...was the model experienced or an amateur?

The model's response alone answers that question.

Kelly Kooper wrote:
Would be interested to know how she rationalises it though...

Doesn't matter now, does it? She just talked herself out of the job with her own big mouth.

Studio36

                                     

BeccaNDSouth wrote:
If you clearly stated in your e-mail to this person as to what was offered (pay, photos, etc.), then she was in the wrong to come back with a counter-offer to try and get more out of the shoot. She should keep in mind that this is the modeling industry, and not real estate...things work differently than she may have wanted them to.

With her being an amateur, though, I'm sure she will learn from this...atleast, I hope she learned from the experience, and will know that in the future when a photographer offers pay then she shouldn't be so picky.

Thank you. She would have been paid quite a bit too but now has no job at all. Her own fault but.

There are models here that do TFP but would jump at being paid.

Raven Photography wrote:
Thank you. She would have been paid quite a bit too but now has no job at all. Her own fault but.

There are models here that do TFP but would jump at being paid.

And what do you want to bet that even if you did negotiate something with her on pay, she would have still have shown up and wanted changes made to the release too? And travel expenses for her and her "escort"? And pre-approval rights? And overnight accommodation in a 5 star hotel; And a free friggen lunch? And........and...........

Studio36

sureshotstudios wrote:
...and your point is ...???

That's what happens when u assume....

Raven Photography wrote:

Thank you. She would have been paid quite a bit too but now has no job at all. Her own fault but.

There are models here that do TFP but would jump at being paid.

Oooh pick me! Pick me! I'm jumping!!!!

Raven Photography wrote:
She's Gone !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

do you feel better now?

Raven Photography wrote:

Yep I know it happens but I cant believe a model thinks she would get that from any photographer. Like any photographer I have eqiupment worth a LOT. I would also be finding the location taking up time and effort and all she does is arrive with her escort and a few g-string bikini's.

She needs to do the math.

Just letting of some steam. Need to wait for my 5 other models to contact me now.

You know, as a model, it gets really sickening to hear a photographer talk in such a condescending tone towards models. I don't give a crap that your equipment is worth so much, that has NOTHING to do with the fact that I model, and attempting to use that as an excuse when dealing with paying models is a pretty crappy way to treat someone.

The pure and simple fact is that it doesn't matter how much your equipment is worth, without the model you have NO shot to sell. I doubt that your clients would appreciate a nice pretty landscape as much.

I've heard this a lot lately, and the trouble is that its apples to oranges. The cost and "effort" put into photography is entirely different than the cost and effort put into modeling. It can not be compared, and attempting to do so puts the model unfairly on the short end of the stick. The fact of the matter is that as a photographer you are up the creek if you don't have a model. So its very wise to respect the effort that the model does bring to the table for what it is, no matter how minimal it might seem next to your monumental equipment bill. Without the model, you have no way to pay your bills.

To the OP: Your profile states that you treat your models "with absolute respect and professionalism." Your post here, whether "blowing off steam" or not, speaks volumes about your real attitude towards those that you are hiring. You might want to consider that before you blow off some steam next time.

NC17 wrote:
The pure and simple fact is that it doesn't matter how much your equipment is worth, without the model you have NO shot to sell. I doubt that your clients would appreciate a nice pretty landscape as much.

Don't you bet on it...

NC17 wrote:
I've heard this a lot lately, and the trouble is that its apples to oranges. The cost and "effort" put into photography is entirely different than the cost and effort put into modeling. It can not be compared, and attempting to do so puts the model unfairly on the short end of the stick.

THAT is the whole point of it. Models are like buses. If you miss one there will be another one coming along shortly... and it seldom matters which one you use... they are all pretty much the same.

NC17 wrote:
The fact of the matter is that as a photographer you are up the creek if you don't have a model. So its very wise to respect the effort that the model does bring to the table for what it is, no matter how minimal it might seem next to your monumental equipment bill.

Models are bringing it on themselves most of the time. The are getting the respect [or not] that they deserve. ESPECIALLY the Internet variety.

NC17 wrote:
Without the model, you have no way to pay your bills.

Don't bet on that either.

T H U M P = sound of a model when she gets her head out of the clouds lands on earth.

Models... pay attention now... YOU ARE NOT THE CENTER OF THE PHOTOGRAPHIC UNIVERSE!

Studio36

Tony Lawrence wrote:
It may not be quite fair to say but I don't expect much from the models on MM
not that they aren't good or professional but many have no business experience.
Many are very young and some aren't very bright.  This is a general statement
and doesn't reflect most of the models here.  Udor has a post about modeling
and where models fit in he explains that models should research their markets but
how many models do.  Most here won't ever sign with a modeling agency or go
to a audition of any sort or even work with many pro level photographers.  In
fact look around at the models who are active on this site in three months.  As
a photographer looking to hire people I would say.  Make the offer, read the
responses if a model asks for more then you can pay then move on.  Demands
that to you are unreasonable, move on.  Its OK to vent also but just consider
that most here won't care for sure models don't.

You made some excellant points.....................so true. If I was hiring a model from MM or similiar sites I would make sure they understood the business side of this fun demanding profession,,,,,,,,,,,,,communication is essential!!

( ANT ) Mgaphoto wrote:
If a model wants money plus half of what you make then move on! There are many professional models who do stock shoots all the time and understand that they make their money from the shoot and that is all. I think some girls who have not modeled much don't understand the industry that well, or get bad advice from "managers online" or boyfriends and really hurt themselves in the long run.

OR they're just smart entrepreneurs and want to secure a long term passive income. C'mon guys models aren't as stupid as you sometimes hope they are. " I have equipment worth a LOT" so what, you bought it, you were going to buy it regardless of whether this model did a shoot with you, you can't expect because you have expensive equipment that it strips models of all their negotiating skills to secure themselves some passive income, just like what you're after.
It's annoying, I see these threads all the time. The photog complaining about how what the model is asking for is sooo preposterous or the model complaining about a photog expecting compensation for shooting them... There is no balance amongst amateurs. Professionals understand that models pay photographers for professional portfolio work and professional photographers also hire and PAY models for their portfolio work. I mean hell, I had a model that I shot wanted to do a second shoot. I didn't mind at all but I asked for her to cover cost of film and processing ($35)  she was offended and responded saying she'd pay $1 for the cd I am giving her and that she shouldn't have to cover my cost of doing the shoot. lol. went on to suggest that maybe I should cover her cost of buying new clothes that she may or may not use in the shoot. Did I start a thread about this idiot that doesn't understand how this system works and complain that I have all this expensive equipment so I should be the one making the money?> haha NO! it’s ridiculous. I just didn't waste my time doing a free shoot for the model and moved on. You should too. Worry about the five other models you are pleased with.

Raven Photography wrote:

Yep I know it happens but I cant believe a model thinks she would get that from any photographer. Like any photographer I have eqiupment worth a LOT. I would also be finding the location taking up time and effort and all she does is arrive with her escort and a few g-string bikini's.

She needs to do the math.

Just letting of some steam. Need to wait for my 5 other models to contact me now.

None of that matters.  She attempted to negotiate and she failed.

Did you know some actors make a shit load of money for their movies AND get a percentage of box office receipts.

Granted, those tend to be big huge assly famous successful stars like Tom Cruise.  Do her request shouldn't be taken as an insult or stupid.  She's just seeking what she feels she's worth.  if you disagree, move on.

BlindMike wrote:
And I suppose looking good costs nothing. There's more to modeling than stripping down to a g-string. If it were that simple and easy, everyone would be a model.

So true!  I tried it but no one wanted to hire me...well...at least not the kinds of people I wanted to be associated with.

studio36uk wrote:

NC17 wrote:
The pure and simple fact is that it doesn't matter how much your equipment is worth, without the model you have NO shot to sell. I doubt that your clients would appreciate a nice pretty landscape as much.

Don't you bet on it...

[img]pretty picture of flowers[/img]

Its very possible to make money. However, the clients that the OP is dealing with don't wanna see flowers. They wanna see a babe in a gstring. Flowers ain't gonna cut it for his market. That is what I was refering to.

studio36uk wrote:

NC17 wrote:
I've heard this a lot lately, and the trouble is that its apples to oranges. The cost and "effort" put into photography is entirely different than the cost and effort put into modeling. It can not be compared, and attempting to do so puts the model unfairly on the short end of the stick.

THAT is the whole point of it. Models are like buses. If you miss one there will be another one coming along shortly... and it seldom matters which one you use... they are all pretty much the same.

Its THAT condescending attitude that makes the difference. If you approach models as a disposable comodity, thats what you'll get. Girls that are apt to flake, and don't really care, and want more than they're worth.

If you approach it looking for an individual that can help create something interesting and unique, then thats what will be found.

studio36uk wrote:

Models are bringing it on themselves most of the time. The are getting the respect [or not] that they deserve. ESPECIALLY the Internet variety.

MOST of the time. Not all. I hate the labeling with the broad brush. To get respect, you've got to give it, and in this vicious circle, no one is getting anything. Everybody points the finger at everybody else. Photographers blame models, and then models blame photographers, and it ends up being exactly like everybody said it would be. How interesting.

studio36uk wrote:
Don't bet on that either.

T H U M P = sound of a model when she gets her head out of the clouds lands on earth.

Models... pay attention now... YOU ARE NOT THE CENTER OF THE PHOTOGRAPHIC UNIVERSE!

Studio36

Nope, nor do I wanna be. My head is not in the clouds, I'm firmly planted on tera firma, thanks.
I'm simply sick of the condescending attitude that is displayed towards models. In *this* industry where the images are focused on people, you need a model to have an image. Thats what this is about. And treating what you need like a piece of crap only furthers the cycle of problems.

studio36uk wrote:
Models... pay attention now... YOU ARE NOT THE CENTER OF THE PHOTOGRAPHIC UNIVERSE! Studio36

[generalization] you guys are amazing...your TFPing all over the place...your doing free editorials for publications because your desperate for credentials..your paying amatuer models outrageous rates, paying expenses and travel, sharing copyrights...ect. you guys have trashed the profession and now you realize you dont like the situation you created[/generalization]

if the models werent getting it..they wouldnt demand it..
you have no one to blame but yourselves..
you created the monster..
so do something about it or deal with it..

but please stop the whining....

studio36uk wrote:

Don't you bet on it...

I have to disagree with you here Studio.  The OP is doing a bikini shoot.  now, if you put a bikini on that flower you might have something, but in this case, a model is required.

As a customer, if I bought a bikini calander and found it filled with flowers such as those in your photo, I'd be a little irked.

And further defense of NC17, I really don't know why photographers get so worked up over a model trying to get an edge on the deal.  How many of you photographers walk into a store to buy some camera stuff and NOT work to work out a better price or some freebies?  Is this unprofessional?  If a client comes in to hire you to take photos for $1,000 and in that agreement they want usage rights which will allow them to create and sell a calendar which they believe will be HUGE, would it be unprofessional for you to negotiate a higher rate or a percentage of sales?

_Tasha_ wrote:

[generalization] you guys are amazing...your TFPing all over the place...your doing free editorials for publications because your desperate for credentials..your paying amatuer models outrageous rates, paying expenses and travel, sharing copyrights...ect. you guys have trashed the profession and now you realize you dont like the situation you created[/generalization]

if the models werent getting it..they wouldnt demand it..
you have no one to blame but yourselves..
you created the monster..
so do something about it or deal with it..

but please stop the whining....

This is what I'm talking about!!!!
This post is right on target.  Photographers in general are giving away the farm.
TFP for every women willing to wear a bikini or mini skirt no matter if she looks
like King Kong.  She's willing to wear a thong.  There is a photographer on MM
who is known for shooting free editoral images for second rate magazines then
gets mad when one of these almost out of bussiness rags won't or no doub't
can't pay him.  That Snickers bar put them over budget.  We have helped create
this monster so all of us will have to live with it.

DigitalCMH wrote:
I have to disagree with you here Studio.  The OP is doing a bikini shoot.  now, if you put a bikini on that flower you might have something, but in this case, a model is required.

As a customer, if I bought a bikini calander and found it filled with flowers such as those in your photo, I'd be a little irked.

I'll have to check that out with my PS guy.

Studio36

DigitalCMH wrote:
And further defense of NC17, I really don't know why photographers get so worked up over a model trying to get an edge on the deal.  How many of you photographers walk into a store to buy some camera stuff and NOT work to work out a better price or some freebies?  Is this unprofessional?  If a client comes in to hire you to take photos for $1,000 and in that agreement they want usage rights which will allow them to create and sell a calendar which they believe will be HUGE, would it be unprofessional for you to negotiate a higher rate or a percentage of sales?

I split the reply to your post because this is a completely different question. Compensation on paid work is negotiated. Fine. Negotiate. But for God's sake get to the friggen point and reach an end to it. What should NEVER be negotiated with the MODEL as opposed to the genuine CLIENT is any element of the IP rights... and it is apparent that just too many net models are trying to do that. They then get all whiny when it's not gonna happen with photographers that have two or more functioning brain cells.

Where a client BUYS rights they BUY the rights. The models, on the other hand, and especially net models, seem to be demanding that they [IP rights and even © ownership] just be handed over... and I am including these open-ended residuals demands too. Screw that. They get paid, they walk away with their check, end of story. I market the work and I walk away with my pay check... nothing to do with the model at all ! I am not going to chase up models for years to come to present them with $10 or $15 payments because I sold one of their pictures at a garage sale.. That kind of s**t is just too silly to even consider.

Studio36

Tony Lawrence wrote:
This is what I'm talking about!!!!
This post is right on target.  Photographers in general are giving away the farm.
TFP for every women willing to wear a bikini or mini skirt no matter if she looks
like King Kong.  She's willing to wear a thong.  There is a photographer on MM
who is known for shooting free editoral images for second rate magazines then
gets mad when one of these almost out of bussiness rags won't or no doub't
can't pay him.  That Snickers bar put them over budget.  We have helped create
this monster so all of us will have to live with it.

I've got it a lot easier than you do Tony. I can, AND DO, put a copyright lock on images for publications like that. No [publication] rights pass until I am paid. If they just fail or refuse to pay they are infringing. I can also bring an infringement claim like that in a [British] small claims court... and, as they are a business entity, if they still don't pay or write a check that doesn't clear, I can force them into bankruptcy. Powerful tools to be sure, but I wouldn't hesitate. You nail one of them and the rest soon get a clue and pay up.

Studio36

RED Photographic wrote:
If I had ever negotiated a shared royalty scheme with any of my models (I never have and I never will), how would I keep track of the royalties?  What would I do with the money if I lose touch with the model?  What if the model decides I'm cheating on the deal?

You'll always be worse off then if you had no such deal in the first place. ALWAYS!!!

How in God's name do you manage the copyright itself if some long gone model, who you can't find much less contact, owns half of it? You can't! You have an IP "asset" worth exactly nothing, zero, zilch.

Studio36

studio36uk wrote:

You'll always be worse off then if you had no such deal in the first place. ALWAYS!!!

How in God's name do you manage the copyright itself if some long gone model, who you can't find much less contact, owns half of it? You can't! You have an IP "asset" worth exactly nothing, zero, zilch.

Studio36

I would imagine that all the photographers who have entered into such deals have been very busy dividing up f**k all between themselves and their models.

studio36uk wrote:
Where a client BUYS rights they BUY the rights. The models, on the other hand, and especially net models, seem to be demanding that they [IP rights and even © ownership] just be handed over... and I am including these open-ended residuals demands too. Screw that. They get paid, they walk away with their check, end of story. I market the work and I walk away with my pay check... nothing to do with the model at all ! I am not going to chase up models for years to come to present them with $10 or $15 payments because I sold one of their pictures at a garage sale.. That kind of s**t is just too silly to even consider.

Studio36

You're very right, and its a misconception that many models seem to run into. Who tells them this, I'm not sure, but we should take them out back and shoot them. LIkely its simply the model not being aware enough of how the industry works. Simply because its your image doesn't mean that you own it.

Trouble is, getting pissy about it only puts the uneducated model on the defense, and it just goes down hill from there. Its a catch 22 if there ever was one.