Allen Coefield wrote:
Alot of models like to determine their rates...and professional ones realize that clients determine rates according to budgets and the worth of the model in the assignments.  (Just take a look at the compensation amounts offered in any casting notice locations on the internet.  Then there are those models who determine their own rates (snicker) and when clients come to them with the amount to be paid they come back with a counter offer.  LOL...
Well..here is a conversation I had with a model on a paying job offer not so long ago.

Me:  This job is a fashion oriented job, shot outdoors at XXXXXXXXXX (location) to begin at 2 pm and will last approx three hours.  There will be three other models present in addition to a make up artist.
Model:  I would love to do it.
Me:  The pay is $300.00, payable at the end of the shoot.  Money order can be the form of paying if you request it.
Model:  Yes, I would prefer a money order, but my rate is $150.00 per hour with a minimum of three hours.  I am afraid I will need at least $150.00 more than you are offering.
Me:  The $300.00 is not an offer.  It is the amount the client is paying each model.
Model: I understand, but my rate is $150.00 per hour with a three hour minimum...that is $450.00
Me:  Ok, I am sorry for taking up your time.  I will have to go with someone else who understands commercial work and that clients set the pay amounts...not the photographers (unless the photographer is the client).
Model:  Why would you say that?  Surely you can see that I am experienced and deserving of my rate.
Me:  Ok, lets do this.  I will go to the client in a little bit and tell them what you are requiring.  They will more than likely want to go with someone else who will respect their budget, but will try.
Model:  Thank you

****two hours passes*****

Me:  I talked to the client and they have the following questions
1.  How experienced are you on advetising assignments
2.  Be prepared to bring tearsheets to support #1
3.  Explain to them what it is about you (beyond the things anyother model could say) that would give them a good reason to expand their budget to pay you more than the other models.
Model:  I am very experienced.  I have worked with alot of photographers and did three paying jobs last year at my rate listed.  I can show them images from those shoots.  I dont have tearsheets other than the photos I can show them from the photographers that hired me.  As for Number 3.  I am professional, reliable and career oriented.   I cared enough about my career to go to Barbizon at night and work during the day.  I feel that my dedication alone is worth my minimum rate.
Me:  Considering the fact that the other models have at least four tearsheets showing advertising assignments they worked and you cant even state what is "original", I dont think I will even send this information in.  I will find someone else....but thanks anyway.
Model:Why?  What did I say?
Me:  Bottom line...you are putting your wishes to get paid an amount you cannot justify before the client's needs and that kills you faster than anything.  Have a good day.


Needless to say...she blew it

Idiot. What an idiot.

Can't say I'm surprised though...

Allen Coefield wrote:
Alot of models like to determine their rates...and professional ones realize that clients determine rates according to budgets and the worth of the model in the assignments.  (Just take a look at the compensation amounts offered in any casting notice locations on the internet.  Then there are those models who determine their own rates (snicker) and when clients come to them with the amount to be paid they come back with a counter offer.  LOL...

Needless to say...she blew it

I won't ask how she came into the picture [so to speak] but when I am working to a client fixed budget that information is first out of the gate on the casting call: About the job...bla... bla.. and ending with "This assignment pays a fixed amount of $XXX.XX"

Beyond that, if she wouldn't do it for that rate, you are wasting her time and she wasted two hours+ of yours. So what is 2 hrs of your overhead rate worth that you pissed away with that mod...doo?

Studio36

Me:  Ok, lets do this.  I will go to the client in a little bit and tell them what you are requiring.  They will more than likely want to go with someone else who will respect their budget, but will try.

I know you were trying to appease her but there's no sense feeding into her allusion. Worth it or not isn't the issue. The client pays this. Period. No? Well then I look forward to working with you on a future project...

But I love the response that the $300 was not an "offer" to be negotiated...but rather the pay.

Frank McAdam wrote:
I've encountered many models (and photographers) who have insisted on more pay than was offered and have lost jobs by so doing.

Very true.

However, a point needs to be made:  some jobs are worth losing.  If it isn't something you want to do, or pays less than market rate ($300 for a commercial job is less than market rate in many places) it is often wise to turn it down.  Everyone has been acting as though this was the model's loss - it could also be the client's. 

There is a price below which a professional should not accept a job, and there is nothing wrong with "losing it" below that price.

TXPhotog wrote:
Very true.

However, a point needs to be made:  some jobs are worth losing.  If it isn't something you want to do, or pays less than market rate ($300 for a commercial job is less than market rate in many places) it is often wise to turn it down.  Everyone has been acting as though this was the model's loss - it could also be the client's. 

There is a price below which a professional should not accept a job, and there is nothing wrong with "losing it" below that price.

Yes, I agree.  But this goes back to the lack of business experience on the part of newcomers as opposed to professionals who've been in the business a while.  Of course, a photographer or model has the right to turn down a job that doesn't pay what they're worth.  The difficulty for a newcomer is in determing exactly what that worth amounts to.  It's very difficult for someone new to an industry to determine what their work is worth without having any guidance.  After one's been in the field a few years, one knows much better what the correct pay is for a given job.

In general, I would say that if one has so little experience that he or she doesn't know the correct market rate and has no one to offer advice, it might be better to err on the side of caution and accept a bit less.  That's on the theory that a beginner, even if slightly underpaid, will still get valuable experience.  Let's face it -- when someone starts in a new field, it's unlikely clients are going to start breaking down their door the same day to offer them high paying jobs.

Allen Coefield wrote:
Model:  I would love to do it.
Me:  The pay is $300.00, payable at the end of the shoot.  Money order can be the form of paying if you request it.
Model:  Yes, I would prefer a money order, but my rate is $150.00 per hour with a minimum of three hours.  I am afraid I will need at least $150.00 more than you are offering.
Me:  The $300.00 is not an offer.  It is the amount the client is paying each model.
Model: I understand, but my rate is $150.00 per hour with a three hour minimum...that is $450.00

You're probably very patient. or something. I don't know that I would've gone any further after [above] point in the discussion.

(don't know why your client wasn't using talent from a reputable agency; can only speculate)

TXPhotog wrote:
There is a price below which a professional should not accept a job, and there is nothing wrong with "losing it" below that price.

Here! Here! Well said! Hope others understand the significance as to why, at times, we turn down jobs (...) and go on to sleep just fine.

FML

TXPhotog wrote:
I see "commercial job" and "agency" being discussed.  Perhaps this is a good time to note that, although mostly an agency will either accept or reject a client's offer, sometimes they will let it be known that they can't support that rate, and suggest a higher rate which, if it isn't met, means they won't supply models.

Agencies turn down low-paying jobs all the time, and not infrequently negotiate rates.  And $300 for three hours is on the low end of what an agency would accept, depending on client and usage.  You probably would have gotten a similar answer if you had gone to an agency for models - which is likely why you did not.

TX is right! I would never work with a client that was limited to this model rate. It's too low for commercial. But then you already knew that.

Allen Coefield wrote:
Why didnt we use an agency model?  With the client having a limited budget they would have gotten very little model or no offers at all when you figured in the agency fees in addition to the model pay.

As I assumed would be true.  Please note:  the agencies would give you the same answer the model you are complaining about gave you:  not enough money for the job, either cough up more money, or no model.

For all the discussion of "inexperienced models" (and admitting that she didn't act all that professionally in the way she handled it), her answer was the same as the professionals.

When you are offering too little money for a commercial job, it doesn't seem to me to be the stuff of legend (or the stuff of a post on the Internet, which contributes to these Urban Legends) when someone turns you down.

TXPhotog wrote:
As I assumed would be true.  Please note:  the agencies would give you the same answer the model you are complaining about gave you:  not enough money for the job, either cough up more money, or no model.

True. But for every model who turns this offer down, three will accept. So really there is no reason to accomodate her on this one. And really no reason to go the agency route if the budget doesn't allow for it.

I learned a very important lesson over the past 6 months. My "Hot Wing" shoot only pays $150 and they have to get naked as a jaybird. Peanuts, if you ask me. And it can be considered commercial since the images are being used on happy hour menus. However, I did have a few models I approached turn it down. But the ones who accepted:

1. A Playboy cybergirl of the Month
2. A model who flew all the way from Kentucky
3. A local Phoenix model who has her rates listed as much more than I was paying.
4. A very popular, very experienced, very busy model from Model Mayhem. This model books minimum 30 paying hrs per week.
5. And a few other riff raffs.

It's really quite simple. Either she wants to make an easy $300 or she doesn't. I'm sure he'll have no trouble finding a quality replacement.

John Jebbia wrote:
Now instead of going out and making $300 doing something she presumably enjoys, she gets to sit at home and watch TV.

Exactly....someone else got to go shopping or out to dinner or pay a bill or two and she got to sit at home and brag she has a minium rate..

Allen Coefield wrote:
****two hours passes*****

Me:  I talked to the client and they have the following questions
1.  How experienced are you on advetising assignments

this begs the question; was the client interested in the right look, or just having an experienced model?

it seems you would have made that discovery prior which would have ended any further discussion with the model.  you thought the model had the look, the price wasn't right.  this happens all the time and the art of negotiation doesn't always fall in favor to the hiring party.  i see this conversation with the model more from you relishing in some sort of self-important authority power position rather than focusing on saying, "ok. maybe next time."

--face reality

John Jebbia wrote:
It's really quite simple. Either she wants to make an easy $300 or she doesn't. I'm sure he'll have no trouble finding a quality replacement.

It is that simple, John.  No argument.  My point is that there is good reason on either side:  to accept the job or to turn it down.  The OP seemed to be implying that she was wrong to turn it down, when in fact many professionals and agencies would agree with her.

That others would accept it is also fine.  It's the free enterprise system.  I just don't understand why every time someone makes an offer that is refused it becomes a reason to complain.  If your offers aren't refused sometimes, your rates are too high.  If they are never accepted, the rates are too low.  How hard is that?

Allen Coefield wrote:

John Jebbia wrote:
Now instead of going out and making $300 doing something she presumably enjoys, she gets to sit at home and watch TV.

Exactly....someone else got to go shopping or out to dinner or pay a bill or two and she got to sit at home and brag she has a minium rate..

I so love sarcasm!!!! You're one of my new favorite MM people!! But, you do have a point. Pride is a terrible, terrible thing sometimes....

Pryclss wrote:

Allen Coefield wrote:

John Jebbia wrote:
Now instead of going out and making $300 doing something she presumably enjoys, she gets to sit at home and watch TV.

Exactly....someone else got to go shopping or out to dinner or pay a bill or two and she got to sit at home and brag she has a minium rate..

I so love sarcasm!!!! You're one of my new favorite MM people!! But, you do have a point. Pride is a terrible, terrible thing sometimes....

Yes pride is a terrible thing, but bullshitting someone when you already know the rates is another. Yeah, the company was b.sing too, but the model was trying to get more when she already knew what the client was offering. Either you take it or move on. But I have to also give it up to her too for at least trying. But if you are going to come like that, come correct and back up what you say by showing that you have that experience. She lacked it.

John Jebbia wrote:

True. But for every model who turns this offer down, three will accept. So really there is no reason to accomodate her on this one. And really no reason to go the agency route if the budget doesn't allow for it.

I learned a very important lesson over the past 6 months. My "Hot Wing" shoot only pays $150 and they have to get naked as a jaybird. Peanuts, if you ask me. And it can be considered commercial since the images are being used on happy hour menus. However, I did have a few models I approached turn it down. But the ones who accepted:

1. A Playboy cybergirl of the Month
2. A model who flew all the way from Kentucky
3. A local Phoenix model who has her rates listed as much more than I was paying.
4. A very popular, very experienced, very busy model from Model Mayhem. This model books minimum 30 paying hrs per week.
5. And a few other riff raffs.

It's really quite simple. Either she wants to make an easy $300 or she doesn't. I'm sure he'll have no trouble finding a quality replacement.

dare I say... garbage in garbage out?

Allen Coefield wrote:
Alot of models like to determine their rates...and professional ones realize that clients determine rates according to budgets and the worth of the model in the assignments.  (Just take a look at the compensation amounts offered in any casting notice locations on the internet.  Then there are those models who determine their own rates (snicker) and when clients come to them with the amount to be paid they come back with a counter offer.  LOL...
Well..here is a conversation I had with a model on a paying job offer not so long ago.

Me:  This job is a fashion oriented job, shot outdoors at XXXXXXXXXX (location) to begin at 2 pm and will last approx three hours.  There will be three other models present in addition to a make up artist.
Model:  I would love to do it.
Me:  The pay is $300.00, payable at the end of the shoot.  Money order can be the form of paying if you request it.
Model:  Yes, I would prefer a money order, but my rate is $150.00 per hour with a minimum of three hours.  I am afraid I will need at least $150.00 more than you are offering.
Me:  The $300.00 is not an offer.  It is the amount the client is paying each model.
Model: I understand, but my rate is $150.00 per hour with a three hour minimum...that is $450.00
Me:  Ok, I am sorry for taking up your time.  I will have to go with someone else who understands commercial work and that clients set the pay amounts...not the photographers (unless the photographer is the client).
Model:  Why would you say that?  Surely you can see that I am experienced and deserving of my rate.
Me:  Ok, lets do this.  I will go to the client in a little bit and tell them what you are requiring.  They will more than likely want to go with someone else who will respect their budget, but will try.
Model:  Thank you

****two hours passes*****

Me:  I talked to the client and they have the following questions
1.  How experienced are you on advetising assignments
2.  Be prepared to bring tearsheets to support #1
3.  Explain to them what it is about you (beyond the things anyother model could say) that would give them a good reason to expand their budget to pay you more than the other models.
Model:  I am very experienced.  I have worked with alot of photographers and did three paying jobs last year at my rate listed.  I can show them images from those shoots.  I dont have tearsheets other than the photos I can show them from the photographers that hired me.  As for Number 3.  I am professional, reliable and career oriented.   I cared enough about my career to go to Barbizon at night and work during the day.  I feel that my dedication alone is worth my minimum rate.
Me:  Considering the fact that the other models have at least four tearsheets showing advertising assignments they worked and you cant even state what is "original", I dont think I will even send this information in.  I will find someone else....but thanks anyway.
Model:Why?  What did I say?
Me:  Bottom line...you are putting your wishes to get paid an amount you cannot justify before the client's needs and that kills you faster than anything.  Have a good day.


Needless to say...she blew it

another model who will bit the dust with her stubborn attitude