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A weird phone call....
A lady with a Spanish dialect called me asking about shooting a starter model portfolio for her 15 year old daughter.....she had been referred by another client of mine which I was very happy about.....I asked her some questions about her and what their goals were, and her height, complexion, etc. Then I told her about a package I offer that I thought would suit her best......she then asked if I did TFP..... I didn't know what to say, there was dead slience for a second....I was just wondering how anyone not assiciated with a web modeling community would know about that.....All I could do was politely tell her.....well Mrs. S., in some very occasional instances I do if there is anything I need or can use from a model with a specific look, with experience.....but in this case, your daughter is brand new at this and isn't at the desired agency level height. it wouldn;t be fair to me or my other clients if I did TFP for you, and then charge the next person. And on top of that I would have to coach. I'm sorry, but if you want to schedule an appointment, I will do my best to provide the images that she needs and give you the best price possible. Thank you Mr. Farrell, CLICK. Do you think it was a practical joke or is it really leaking into the mainstream? I mean, why would you call a business and ask for something free? No one has let me off the hook yet if it was a joke Oct 08 06 11:31 am Link And these are people who would never go into a restaurant, be seated and get menus and when the waitstaff asks for their order ask them, "Can I have some -free- food?" Oct 08 06 11:48 am Link PapaVic Photography wrote: Only if it were a true Utopian society..... Oct 08 06 11:57 am Link Hm... I can see the terminology and concept of TFP having leaked into the non-digital world; sure - the exchange of services is the same, whether its arranged online or otherwise. I first heard of this method of portfolio building from an agency, who recommend I start out that way if I have no money. What's puzzling about this lady's request, though, is that she expected you to agree without even having seen her daughter - I think if TFP arrangements work over the 'net, it's because both parties' work is laid out for evaluation, before they even communicate. Also puzzling is the sudden hanging up. Well, no; that's just rude and bitchy. ~S. Oct 08 06 12:00 pm Link Jay Farrell wrote: It seems to me there is a built-in disconnect here. The girl isn't model material, but wants a "model portfolio". The photographer tells her she isn't model material, but will charge her for a "model portfolio" anyway. Oct 08 06 12:04 pm Link It is leeking slowly, A few agency models are on the websites and they are working with agency photographers and convincing them to be on the web sites and muas who do both as well. Then agency photographers find a new group of models to test with and and them internet model give agancy model credit and other internet modles start calling up agency photographer demanding tfcd and to bring an escort. Or new mua gets a test with agency model and photographer and demands contact info to guy at agency so she can show her book. Or internet model sees images of the wall and demands phone number of rock stars on the wall for a reference... Oct 08 06 12:05 pm Link So TX so what is the best way to let someone know that they are not model material??? If they are just a friend and want to test of if they actually want to pay although I am not to sure about how I feel about taking money and telling them that my images will get them work if they just don't have anything marketable... Oct 08 06 12:08 pm Link She might still be growing, or received some agency interest for local work or any type of work, or perhaps her mom just wanted a shoot for her - and happened to term it a "starter portfolio," not knowing specifics of the business... But it's still the photographer's job to respond to a potential client's need, and he did let the mother know she wasn't at agency height - so probably wouldn't be suitable as a fashion model in particular - before offering a paid shoot. ~S. Oct 08 06 12:10 pm Link someone in another thread wondered if tfp was screwing things up.. you might have said, "tfp is for when a model and a photographer have equal experience and want to collaborate, sometimes i do tfp, but not without seeing your child first, when i do tfp it is all my shoot, if you want decide what she will wear then you'll have to hire me, other photographers do tfp because they need the experience, they know what they are worth" got them into your studio and then tried to upsell her, while she would of course, would have been trying to down sell you.. Oct 08 06 12:10 pm Link TXPhotog wrote: I think you are misconstruing what he said - the girl has no modeling experience. She would be using him to get a portfolio to start out with. His time is worth money, and as such he is charging a fee for services rendered. Oct 08 06 12:13 pm Link TXPhotog wrote: Nothing. It is not a photographer's place to decide who can and cannot pay to get a modeling portfolio. If my hairdresses said, no you can't have long hair I am cutting it short I would throw a fit! If they suggested it, I would politely decline. Oct 08 06 12:15 pm Link I agree that they're asking for something unreasonable, but I just want to point out that I knew about TFP before I ever heard of an on-line modeling community. The first time I can remember hearing the term was around 1983 or 1984 in Colorado Springs. It was a pretty common term among members of a local camera club there. The internet isn't responsible for everything that irritates people. Oct 08 06 12:16 pm Link TXPhotog wrote: Nothing wrong with what I told her at all IMO....it was you who provided a link about new model guidelines that I have saved and showed to aspiring models (so, thank you for that) This girl is 5 feet tall.....I didn't tell her she couldn't model, neither did your article. It will just limit her opportunities, but it doesn't shut the door on her. Besides I am not the agent, I am the photographer who helps give them something to show....whether it just stays in picture frames of her family members, images go here, shown to any agents, whatever. So I am in business to shoot portraits and model portfolios, why are you thinking it is unethical for me to want their business? I may need the money more than you do, but I see nothing wrong with this picture at all. Oct 08 06 12:37 pm Link Experimental Photoworks wrote: It's not really up to us to make the final call is it? Besides all you can do is give them what you feel are the best images for them, there is no guarantee of anyone's marketability, or that they will put the work into it. Oct 08 06 12:41 pm Link Jay Farrell wrote: If you do on occasion shoot TFP, then I can't understand why you'd be offended or puzzled by a mother asking if her child qualifies. Oct 08 06 12:42 pm Link Saryn Angel wrote: Exactly, thank you for understanding! Oct 08 06 12:43 pm Link Frank McAdam wrote: Not really a matter of being offended Frank, I just didn't expect it.....if she contacted me from here, I would expect that......she contacted me as a business, not an individual, and it doesn't say on my main site any reference about TFP.....just really caught me off guard that's all. Oct 08 06 12:44 pm Link Star wrote: Thank you. Oct 08 06 12:46 pm Link I am not saying your reaction was wrong,you are in business to make money.However the fact that someone should ask for such a trade is not surpriseing.The mom probably used the internet to research modeling for her daughter and learned about tfp and some other useful facts. First of all there is nothing new about tfp,trade for time,barter,test shooting however you want to call it.Nor is there anything wrong with it ,it is just a tool.So If you think that it is some trade secret that only you and a few other know about simply because of the web,I am afraid your mistaken.It was here long before computors were even concieved of and alot of people who don't have any connection with this business are aware of it and have used it. i hope you remembered to get the woman's name and phone number and her daughters name,because you now have a solid lead for a potenial customer if you apply it right.Tfp in my opinion does not hurt anyone in the long run,finding customers and wooing them is 99% of this or any other business.All those tfp shooters out there are just spreading the word and building interest in the service you can provide and all cost free. Oct 08 06 01:19 pm Link Good God man, TFP is not a secret! ....and (as if it was really relevant), what was the Spanish dialect?? Or did ya mean accent? Oct 08 06 01:23 pm Link Jay, your reaction and approach are right on. If I am approached to shoot with someone, I expect either to be paid or a TRULY beneficial exchange for both parties involved. Then it would have to be clear that the model is at least as accomplished in her craft as I am. Oct 08 06 01:26 pm Link Jay Farrell wrote: A simple 'NO' would've sufficed. It sounds like you let your mouth get in the way. This persone called you...remember? She's not your friend, at least not until AFTER the initial shoot AND the check clears. This is business as usual. TXPhotog wrote: There's nothing 'wrong' with this picture. The potential client is coming to the photographer and asking the photographer to do a job. Period. What the hell do we care that the model is not actual model material? We are not her manager or therapist, we are simply doing a job. I don't care if the model is 4 feet tall and wants a high fashion looking shoot for her/his portfolio. It's nothing I will put in my book and .......so long as the check clears... Oct 08 06 01:34 pm Link TXPhotog wrote: Honesty. Oct 08 06 01:35 pm Link INever wrote: No but you hear more about it here and OMP....I guess me mentioning her Spanish accent or dialect makes me racist then.... I actually liked her voice.... Oct 08 06 01:48 pm Link Jay Farrell wrote: Jay, I think you need sensitivity training and should give away all your work for free now. Oct 08 06 02:08 pm Link Vegas Alien wrote: Sounds good.....where do I sign? Oct 08 06 02:57 pm Link It's nothing I will put in my book and .......so long as the check clears... Hmmmm....above, beyond or sideways... I only shoot with passion. Oct 08 06 03:01 pm Link Jay Farrell wrote: accents are tonality.............dialects are language variations Oct 08 06 03:02 pm Link PapaVic Photography wrote: No, I think they're the people who say, "Oh, well it won't scan, then it's free!" (Such as at the grocery store.) Maybe it's not scanning, because the barcode was scratched? Conveniently, that can be fixed Oct 08 06 03:11 pm Link i agree with tex on this one. upon hearing the stats it was immediately concluded the model wasn't agency level so what would be the point other than taking money from the unqualified? would taking a sitting fee change that? no, not any more than doing tfp. part of the best practice onus on a photographer isn't to simply make money with the lens, but to be a respected arbiter in helping guide those from spending foolishly. --face reality Oct 08 06 03:13 pm Link FaceReality wrote: Unqualified for what? To have their picture taken? The point might just be to provide a service to someone who is asking for it. Oct 08 06 03:24 pm Link I'm having a hard time seeing where Jay did anything wrong. He told a potential client that he wasn't interested in a trade shoot and explained why. He then offered to shoot for a fee. I personally would hate to live in a world where people that were not model material, couldn't find anyone to shoot their portrait. Likewise, I would hate to be in in environment, where a qualified model or photographer could not find work that paid. The only real problem I see here is that this interaction appears to have been traumatic for Jay. My advice, let it go. Oct 08 06 03:27 pm Link Michael Kirst wrote: Totally.....even if the family kept them for themselves, that is something they can keep for a lifetime, and I was honest with her from the start.....however that should not keep her from trying, in other genres besides runway / fashion. If they want to proceed, it's only smart for me to as well. Many of us don't have millions to be that stuffy.....face reality Oct 08 06 03:30 pm Link ArtisticDigitalImages wrote: Pretty much....well I wouldn't say it was traumatic, but it strikes me as odd...... Oct 08 06 03:34 pm Link Michael Kirst wrote: no, the request was for a model portfolio. the op did nothing wrong by not accepting tfp. that would be his investment and he saw it as unworthy. i would probably feel the same. Jay Farrell wrote: were you? then why didn't you say they were asking for keepsakes rather than a modeling portfolio? maybe i was wrong about your understanding as stated previously. Oct 08 06 03:50 pm Link FaceReality wrote: Yes, the request was for a modeling portfolio......just because many agencies may not look at her, that doesn't mean she should give up.....there are models even here or those represented by smaller agencies who do glamour and swimwear work, etc. who also wouldn't qualify to be a major agency's target market. They may not make fat bank, but if they make something and come as close as they can to living a dream, and doing what they enjoy, why not try? Same thing with me attending Greg Gorman's workshop next March....even after that class, I won't be and maybe will never be as great as he is......but that doesn't mean I should sell my gear and bury my head in the sand. Nor would he want me to. I gave them the guideline but I am not an agency.....so yes i was honest.....if they want to proceed, the worst that can happen is they have family pictures which someone would have done for them anyhow. Oct 08 06 04:07 pm Link Besides, we are veering off topic.....they called a registered business and asked for a free service after saying they liked my work.....I wasn't prepared for that call at the time Oct 08 06 04:11 pm Link FaceReality wrote: The request could've been for a shot of her big toe. What's the difference? Again, who are we to judge who get's their picture taken and for what reason? If I told most of my clients that I didn't think thier product stood a chance and therefor chose not to shoot the job, I may as well be shooting myself in the foot. The Unrealistic Person then wrote: It's not being hard up as you put it to take on a paying job. If you knew what I made with photography and with what clients, you would laugh at your last remark. Oh, and in the end, you might just be helping out the 'inexperienced' become a little more experienced in your efforts. So yes, I would call it 'elitism' of the tallest order when you have to deem people/projects 'worthy' before you actually decide to shoot them. Now if you don't want to shoot them just because you don't feel like it, well then, I would have more respect for you. Oct 08 06 04:12 pm Link MrHotShot wrote: you really miss the point. you're grasping at big toes holding straws. Jay Farrell wrote: looks like you lost out in more ways than one. no payment and no opportunity to bring a 15 year old without agency level stats to your next swimwear and glammer clients. Oct 08 06 04:42 pm Link Jay Farrell wrote: I full well expect at some point some of these newbies and or their stage moms will want to charge the photographer for having the privilege of being the first to photograph this "undiscovered talent". Oct 08 06 04:47 pm Link |