PapaVic Photography wrote:
And these are people who would never go into a restaurant, be seated and get menus and when the waitstaff asks for their order ask them, "Can I have some -free- food?"

Only if it were a true Utopian society.....

Jay Farrell wrote:
A lady with a Spanish dialect called me asking about shooting a starter model portfolio for her 15 year old daughter.....she had been referred by another client of mine which I was very happy about.....I asked her some questions about her and what their goals were, and her height, complexion, etc. Then I told her about a package I offer that I thought would suit her best . . .

"your daughter is brand new at this and isn't at the desired agency level height."

It seems to me there is a built-in disconnect here.  The girl isn't model material, but wants a "model portfolio".  The photographer tells her she isn't model material, but will charge her for a "model portfolio" anyway.

What's wrong with this picture?

TXPhotog wrote:

It seems to me there is a built-in disconnect here.  The girl isn't model material, but wants a "model portfolio".  The photographer tells her she isn't model material, but will charge her for a "model portfolio" anyway.

What's wrong with this picture?

I think you are misconstruing what he said - the girl has no modeling experience. She would be using him to get a portfolio to start out with.  His time is worth money, and as such he is charging a fee for services rendered.

The girl would be getting experience as well as images for a portfolio. He did not say she wasn't model material - just that at this time he can't use her for any of his TFP shoots...

TXPhotog wrote:

It seems to me there is a built-in disconnect here.  The girl isn't model material, but wants a "model portfolio".  The photographer tells her she isn't model material, but will charge her for a "model portfolio" anyway.

What's wrong with this picture?

Nothing. It is not a photographer's place to decide who can and cannot pay to get a modeling portfolio. If my hairdresses said, no you can't have long hair I am cutting it short I would throw a fit! If they suggested it, I would politely decline.

Would you let a resteraunt tell you you are too fat to eat there, they worry that the cholesteral content would make you sick, and so sorry but they can't serve you?

TXPhotog wrote:

It seems to me there is a built-in disconnect here.  The girl isn't model material, but wants a "model portfolio".  The photographer tells her she isn't model material, but will charge her for a "model portfolio" anyway.

What's wrong with this picture?

Nothing wrong with what I told her at all IMO....it was you who provided a link about new model guidelines that I have saved and showed to aspiring models (so, thank you for that) This girl is 5 feet tall.....I didn't tell her she couldn't model, neither did your article. It will just limit her opportunities, but it doesn't shut the door on her. Besides I am not the agent, I am the photographer who helps give them something to show....whether it just stays in picture frames of her family members, images go here, shown to any agents, whatever. So I am in business to shoot portraits and model portfolios, why are you thinking it is unethical for me to want their business? I may need the money more than you do, but I see nothing wrong with this picture at all.

Experimental Photoworks wrote:
So TX so what is the best way to let someone know that they are not model material???

If they are just a friend and want to test of if they actually want to pay although I am not to sure about how I feel about taking money and telling them that my images will get them work if they just don't have anything marketable...

It's not really up to us to make the final call is it? Besides all you can do is give them what you feel are the best images for them, there is no guarantee of anyone's marketability, or that they will put the work into it.

Jay Farrell wrote:
Do you think it was a practical joke or is it really leaking into the mainstream? I mean, why would you call a business and ask for something free? No one has let me off the hook yet if it was a joke

If you do on occasion shoot TFP, then I can't understand why you'd be offended or puzzled by a mother asking if her child qualifies.

Saryn Angel wrote:

I think you are misconstruing what he said - the girl has no modeling experience. She would be using him to get a portfolio to start out with.  His time is worth money, and as such he is charging a fee for services rendered.

The girl would be getting experience as well as images for a portfolio. He did not say she wasn't model material - just that at this time he can't use her for any of his TFP shoots...

Exactly, thank you for understanding!

Frank McAdam wrote:

If you do on occasion shoot TFP, then I can't understand why you'd be offended or puzzled by a mother asking if her child qualifies.

Not really a matter of being offended Frank, I just didn't expect it.....if she contacted me from here, I would expect that......she contacted me as a business, not an individual, and it doesn't say on my main site any reference about TFP.....just really caught me off guard that's all.

Star wrote:

Nothing. It is not a photographer's place to decide who can and cannot pay to get a modeling portfolio. If my hairdresses said, no you can't have long hair I am cutting it short I would throw a fit! If they suggested it, I would politely decline.

Would you let a resteraunt tell you you are too fat to eat there, they worry that the cholesteral content would make you sick, and so sorry but they can't serve you?

Thank you.

Jay Farrell wrote:
A lady with a Spanish dialect called me asking about shooting a starter model portfolio for her 15 year old daughter.....she had been referred by another client of mine which I was very happy about.....I asked her some questions about her and what their goals were, and her height, complexion, etc. Then I told her about a package I offer that I thought would suit her best......she then asked if I did TFP.....

I didn't know what to say, there was dead slience for a second....I was just wondering how anyone not assiciated with a web modeling community would know about that.....All I could do was politely tell her.....well Mrs. S., in some very occasional instances I do if there is anything I need or can use from a model with a specific look, with experience.....but in this case, your daughter is brand new at this and isn't at the desired agency level height. it wouldn;t be fair to me or my other clients if I did TFP for you, and then charge the next person. And on top of that I would have to coach. I'm sorry, but if you want to schedule an appointment, I will do my best to provide the images that she needs and give you the best price possible.

Thank you Mr. Farrell, CLICK.

Do you think it was a practical joke or is it really leaking into the mainstream? I mean, why would you call a business and ask for something free? No one has let me off the hook yet if it was a joke

A simple 'NO' would've sufficed. It sounds like you let your mouth get in the way. This persone called you...remember? She's not your friend, at least not until AFTER the initial shoot AND the check clears. This is business as usual.

TXPhotog wrote:
It seems to me there is a built-in disconnect here.  The girl isn't model material, but wants a "model portfolio".  The photographer tells her she isn't model material, but will charge her for a "model portfolio" anyway.

What's wrong with this picture?

There's nothing 'wrong' with this picture. The potential client is coming to the photographer and asking the photographer to do a job. Period. What the hell do we care that the model is not actual model material? We are not her manager or therapist, we are simply doing a job. I don't care if the model is 4 feet tall and wants a high fashion looking shoot for her/his portfolio. It's nothing I will put in my book and .......so long as the check clears...

Or are you above that?

TXPhotog wrote:

It seems to me there is a built-in disconnect here.  The girl isn't model material, but wants a "model portfolio".  The photographer tells her she isn't model material, but will charge her for a "model portfolio" anyway.

What's wrong with this picture?

Honesty.

INever wrote:
Good God man, TFP is not a secret!

....and (as if it was really relevant), what was the Spanish dialect?? Or did ya mean accent?

No but you hear more about it here and OMP....I guess me mentioning her Spanish accent or dialect makes me racist then.... I actually liked her voice....

Jay Farrell wrote:

No but you hear more about it here and OMP....I guess me mentioning her Spanish accent or dialect makes me racist then.... I actually liked her voice....

Jay, I think you need sensitivity training and should give away all your work for free now.

Vegas Alien wrote:

Jay, I think you need sensitivity training and should give away all your work for free now.

Sounds good.....where do I sign?

It's nothing I will put in my book and .......so long as the check clears...

Or are you above that?

Hmmmm....above, beyond or sideways... I only shoot with passion.

Jay Farrell wrote:

No but you hear more about it here and OMP....I guess me mentioning her Spanish accent or dialect makes me racist then.... I actually liked her voice....

accents are tonality.............dialects are language variations

PapaVic Photography wrote:
And these are people who would never go into a restaurant, be seated and get menus and when the waitstaff asks for their order ask them, "Can I have some -free- food?"

No, I think they're the people who say, "Oh, well it won't scan, then it's free!" (Such as at the grocery store.)  Maybe it's not scanning, because the barcode was scratched?  Conveniently, that can be fixed

FaceReality wrote:
upon hearing the stats it was immediately concluded the model wasn't agency level so what would be the point other than taking money from the unqualified?

Unqualified for what? To have their picture taken? The point might just be to provide a service to someone who is asking for it.

Confucious say: Elitism = empty wallet

Michael Kirst wrote:

Unqualified for what? To have their picture taken? The point might just be to provide a service to someone who is asking for it.

Confucious say: Elitism = empty wallet

Totally.....even if the family kept them for themselves, that is something they can keep for a lifetime, and I was honest with her from the start.....however that should not keep her from trying, in other genres besides runway / fashion. If they want to proceed, it's only smart for me to as well. Many of us don't have millions to be that stuffy.....face reality

ArtisticDigitalImages wrote:
I'm having a hard time seeing where Jay did anything wrong.

He told a potential client that he wasn't interested in a trade shoot and explained why.

He then offered to shoot for a fee.

I personally would hate to live in a world where people that were not model material, couldn't find anyone to shoot their portrait.  Likewise, I would hate to be in in environment, where a qualified model or photographer could not find work that paid.

The only real problem I see here is that this interaction appears to have been traumatic for Jay.  My advice, let it go.

Pretty much....well I wouldn't say it was traumatic, but it strikes me as odd......

Michael Kirst wrote:
Unqualified for what? To have their picture taken? The point might just be to provide a service to someone who is asking for it.

no, the request was for a model portfolio.  the op did nothing wrong by not accepting tfp. that would be his investment and he saw it as unworthy.  i would probably feel the same. 

i'll also take it at face value the op has a sense that after hearing her stats it wouldn't be a good investment for her either by pointing out she isn't agency level (otherwise, why invest in a model portfolio?).

the question becomes, "would it be right to take payment from one that when in all likelihood the service would not bring return on that investment?"  i say no, and i've rejected payment based on similar circumstances.

call it elitist if you must.  i call it not being hard up to make a buck at someone else inexperienced expense.

Jay Farrell wrote:
Totally.....even if the family kept them for themselves, that is something they can keep for a lifetime, and I was honest with her from the start.....

were you?  then why didn't you say they were asking for keepsakes rather than a modeling portfolio?  maybe i was wrong about your understanding as stated previously.

--face reality

FaceReality wrote:
no, the request was for a model portfolio.  the op did nothing wrong by not accepting tfp. that would be his investment and he saw it as unworthy.  i would probably feel the same. 

i'll also take it at face value the op has a sense that after hearing her stats it wouldn't be a good investment for her either by pointing out she isn't agency level (otherwise, why invest in a model portfolio?).

the question becomes, "would it be right to take payment from one that when in all likelihood the service would not bring return on that investment?"  i say no, and i've rejected payment based on similar circumstances.

call it elitist if you must.  i call it not being hard up to make a buck at someone else inexperienced expense.


were you?  then why didn't you say they were asking for keepsakes rather than a modeling portfolio?  maybe i was wrong about your understanding as stated previously.

--face reality

Yes, the request was for a modeling portfolio......just because many agencies may not look at her, that doesn't mean she should give up.....there are models even here or those represented by smaller agencies who do glamour and swimwear work, etc. who also wouldn't qualify to be a major agency's target market. They may not make fat bank, but if they make something and come as close as they can to living a dream, and doing what they enjoy, why not try? Same thing with me attending Greg Gorman's workshop next March....even after that class, I won't be and maybe will never be as great as he is......but that doesn't mean I should sell my gear and bury my head in the sand. Nor would he want me to. I gave them the guideline but I am not an agency.....so yes i was honest.....if they want to proceed, the worst that can happen is they have family pictures which someone would have done for them anyhow.

Bottom line, I can only advise what I know to advise, I can't decide for them, I am not an agency.....however....it would have been unethical for me to blow smoke up their ass just to get them to spend money with me.....i never did that. The customer is still the customer, if you don't shoot the images they want, someone else will. That person has friends too.

FaceReality wrote:
no, the request was for a model portfolio.  the op did nothing wrong by not accepting tfp. that would be his investment and he saw it as unworthy.  i would probably feel the same.

The request could've been for a shot of her big toe. What's the difference? Again, who are we to judge who get's their picture taken and for what reason? If I told most of my clients that I didn't think thier product stood a chance and therefor chose not to shoot the job, I may as well be shooting myself in the foot.

As far as an 'investment'. What, you never take pictures of anyone where the 'investment' isn't 'worthy'. Free or otherwise? You don't take pictures of family or friends ever?

The Unrealistic Person then wrote:
call it elitist if you must.  i call it not being hard up to make a buck at someone else inexperienced expense.

It's not being hard up as you put it to take on a paying job. If you knew what I made with photography and with what clients, you would laugh at your last remark. Oh, and in the end, you might just be helping out the 'inexperienced' become a little more experienced in your efforts. So yes, I would call it 'elitism' of the tallest order when you have to deem people/projects 'worthy' before you actually decide to shoot them. Now if you don't want to shoot them just because you don't feel like it, well then, I would have more respect for you.

God man, imagine walking into a Bar and the bartender saying..."I'm sorry, after looking at you, I don't think I will serve you because the investment is not worthy."

Pffft

MrHotShot wrote:
The request could've been for a shot of her big toe. What's the difference?
Pffft

you really miss the point.  you're grasping at big toes holding straws.

but let's bring this into some sort of perspective.  knowing what you know and taking yourself out of consideration to do the photography, if you had a 15 year old daughter what advice would be given toward investing in a modeling portfolio if you thought there might not be a chance to return that investment?  i'm sure you would advise to go find someone that would relish in laughing all the way to the bank instead of seeking honest valued opinion by one that understands the requirements.

Jay Farrell wrote:
Yes, the request was for a modeling portfolio......just because many agencies may not look at her, that doesn't mean she should give up.....there are models even here or those represented by smaller agencies who do glamour and swimwear work, etc. who also wouldn't qualify to be a major agency's target market.

looks like you lost out in more ways than one.  no payment and no opportunity to bring a 15 year old without agency level stats to your next swimwear and glammer clients.

oh well.  better luck next time.

--face reality

Jay Farrell wrote:
A lady with a Spanish dialect called me asking about shooting a starter model portfolio for her 15 year old daughter.....she had been referred by another client of mine which I was very happy about.....I asked her some questions about her and what their goals were, and her height, complexion, etc. Then I told her about a package I offer that I thought would suit her best......she then asked if I did TFP.....

I didn't know what to say, there was dead slience for a second....I was just wondering how anyone not assiciated with a web modeling community would know about that.....All I could do was politely tell her.....well Mrs. S., in some very occasional instances I do if there is anything I need or can use from a model with a specific look, with experience.....but in this case, your daughter is brand new at this and isn't at the desired agency level height. it wouldn;t be fair to me or my other clients if I did TFP for you, and then charge the next person. And on top of that I would have to coach. I'm sorry, but if you want to schedule an appointment, I will do my best to provide the images that she needs and give you the best price possible.

Thank you Mr. Farrell, CLICK.

Do you think it was a practical joke or is it really leaking into the mainstream? I mean, why would you call a business and ask for something free? No one has let me off the hook yet if it was a joke

I full well expect at some point some of these newbies and or their stage moms will want to charge the photographer for having the privilege of being the first to photograph this "undiscovered talent".

Let the bidding begin!