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Photographers Unite
If photographers work together, we can cut down and possibly eliminate the no-call no-show models. Models have to understand that when they schedule a shoot they must show up or give a great excuse why they can not. I very rarely do TFP/TFCD work so it hits home even harder when I get a no-call, no show. Not only is it unprofessional but downright rude. Like our time is not valuable. It also possibly prohibits another model who would have shown up from shooting because of scheduling the no-show model. Finally, "aspiring models" must understand that there is no wiggle room on this matter. Agencies will drop models who show up late or do no-shows. In fact if they are set up with an appointment to meet an agency and they show up late will most likely cause them not to be signed. If local photographers work together on letting each other know when they have a no-show, no-call with a model, this crap will probably stop or at least cut down the amount of no-calls, no-shows. Also, I see on several threads that sometimes models complain about photographers doing the same to them. I think it should go both ways. If a model wants to report a no-call, no-show on a photographer, they should. Again, the model's time is just as valuable as ours. Do not schedule a shoot and not do it. It is equally as unprofessional as a model pulling a no-show. But I am sure we all know, this problem is more prevalent on the model's side. If a model thinks I am being an asshole about this, I do not want to work with him/her anyway because they are not serious about their modeling... period. Oct 05 06 08:59 am Link O.k I had to cancel a shoot because of a migraine headache , after taking proper pain relievers it did not go away.... considering i know i will not be at my best for a shoot and whn i am in pain it is written on my face, was it wrong for me to cancel? Oct 05 06 09:02 am Link Let's be fair about this...... You're saying that you as a photographer have never cancelled a shoot?????? You must be more perfect than me.......because I have. Oct 05 06 09:05 am Link welcome to the real world.. its like running your bussiness when people dont show up for work it happens all the time.... Oct 05 06 09:07 am Link I have yet to cancel a shoot. And if I had to cancel, I would do my best to work with some of the local photographers I know to take my spot. I respect my models as much as I want to be respected. Oct 05 06 09:08 am Link CareLyn Anita wrote: No. Oct 05 06 09:09 am Link Annivo wrote: The moderator of Model Meyham should start a HARD THREAD where photographers can list no-call, No-show models. Plain and simple. Oct 05 06 09:12 am Link publish your schedule somewhere like your profile, myspace, or some where else then just kindly put no show or cancelled next to their name.... Oct 05 06 09:17 am Link BINGO!!! Aspiring models who think that since they are cute that they will be allowed to sh*t on photographers need to be forwarned. I hate the posts from photogs who say that they keep rescheduling a model. They seem desparate and needy and the models know that. We need to lay down the rules and let them know that when you schedule a time you have to keep that because 1) it shows respect for me and 2) others may have been able to use that time slot. And, it is a 2-way street. Models who meet photogs who are pervs and unprofessional need to be able to warn other models. I mean, simple meets over coffee with a model so that we can plan and review each other's work has been cancelled over BS. Once they cancel, I dont chase them. I tell them to call me when they are able, but THEY HAVE TO CALL ME, I am not chasing them. I dont have time for 'wanna-be Divas' who are bringing nothing to the table. Besides, I have found better subjects who are non-models and have had tremendous results from non-models. Oct 05 06 09:19 am Link Annivo wrote: That may work however, it would be a helluva let simpler for MM to have a forum thread on the no-call no-show models where photographers can check that before they schedule a shoot. Oct 05 06 09:24 am Link I have a pretty o.k track record , i know of some one who has a pretty bad one... The photographers started tagging her with... "Why didn't you show up?" or "We had a scheduled shoot today" She wouldn't even communicate the blow off though. I have also had photographers cancel/ reschedule dates often. I have cancelled 2 legit shoots in my life. And one where the guy was a donkey posing as a gwc...Both times i communicated with dates as to the next time I would be free, I haven't blown off a tfcd for a paid shoot even. the third time is not worth talking about... Maybe there should be a rescheduled label as well as cancelled or no show. Oct 05 06 09:27 am Link CareLyn Anita wrote: I agree.. and models who blow off a TFP/TFCD for a paid shoot... Ladies and gents, it is NOT about the money in this business, it is your reputation that takes you places. Oct 05 06 09:35 am Link Jeez I get sick of this shit. No-shows are a part of every business. How many times have YOU made a Dr's appointment, or a haircut appoint, or scheduled service for your car, or made a reservation at a restaurant, and then not shown up for some reason? It happens. Every business deals with it. Come on people -- unless we are talking about a major commercial shoot here with assistants and stylists and hair and makeup and paid locations and permits and merchandise and insurance and a caterer -- it's just not that big a deal. And if you are hiring models for that level of commercial work just on the basis of a contact on MM, shame on you! I'm not justifying no-shows -- I hate 'em too. But it's just part of doing business. Like bad checks, and break-ins, and people who smell bad. You will NEVER stop these things, end of story. The harder we make war on terror, the more terror we get. The more we make war on drugs, the more people use them. There is no way to FORCE people to not do no-shows. The secret to reducing no-shows is good communications, making sure the model understands the value of the shoot she has scheduled with you, and establishing a mutually respectful relationship. If you do these things, you will STILL have an ocassional no-show, but you'll have a lot less of them. Remember the pair of all-important rules: 1. Don't sweat the small stuff. 2. It's ALL small stuff! Be happy. . . Paul Oct 05 06 09:41 am Link I am all about don't sweat the small stuff, but i do my best to make all appointments ... Even with the massage guy or the dentist or the chiropractor... it's just responsible , and responsible for my own words has less headaches attached to it than irresponsible. Oct 05 06 09:47 am Link I agree Paul, BUT my doctor would charge me for a no-show. If I need a haircut I make the appointment. Oh, well, I don't eat at too many resturants that need reservations. HOWEVER, if we all just "don't sweat the small stuff" the small stuff will continue. CASE IN POINT! I had a no-call no show this week where I had a MUA that I paid for who sat at my studio doing nothing. I had another MUA in my studio this morning for a 9:00am shoot. She was doing a freebie just to build HER book and she turned down a paid opportunity cause "this model (who did the no show) had potential and great look". Sorry, but in my book, this is not small stuff. This is just downright rudeness. Now MY day is completly screwed up, the MUA is not happy. It's a business. plain and simple and things will happen from time to time. But it needs to be curbed, plain and simple. Oct 05 06 09:51 am Link I completely agree -- it would be great if everyone was responsible. But the fact is, they're not. And these ideas to set up an elaborate rating system are just silly, and frankly, a little dangerous. I'm not arguing it's OK for people to be irresponsible -- just that it's not worth getting all wound up about it when they're not. . . To me, the photogs who whine constantly about no-shows are as bad as the models who list all the stuff they WON'T do in their profiles -- makes me avoid them. I guess what I'm saying -- whether you're a photographer or a model -- keep the drama down. Diva behavior can backfire on you. Regards, Paul CareLyn Anita wrote: Oct 05 06 09:51 am Link Amen to that ... i do think a rating system isn't all that cool , and i am not into drama either... i have had more photgs reschedule than i have had to... and it's all good.... But i always hear about models getting slammed for no shows being irresponsible and such... violins please ..... it really makes me .... Sad...  ( just kidding ) Oct 05 06 09:56 am Link So why don't YOU charge for a no-show? What are you doing booking a model and a makeup artist, and then not charging? If this is an issue, you should charge the model $200 to make the appointment. When she shows up and signs the release, she gets the $200 back. If she doesn't show, you and the MUA split the $100, and write it off. If you're going to be a business, you gotta be businesslike. When I book a shoot for a social event like a wedding or a party, I don't write a thing in my book until they pay me a $400 deposit. That deposit is refundable for ANY reason -- up to 60 days before the event -- after that, it's mine. My point is -- every single business has a no show issue. But you don't see doctors or lawyers or mechanics or massage therapists or physical therapists or restaurants or. . . .whatever, blacklisting or "rating" clients because they do a no show. Some charge for no-shows, some don't. I agree it's annoying. It's rude. It costs money. But your response has to be a realistic one. Paul R Cervelli wrote: Oct 05 06 09:57 am Link you all will learn i rearly work with mm models because of that, but they will shoot with a photographer with no studio and photographers that can't get them no were, then again i truly belive that these models on this site like being internet models..at least 85% of them...i'm not saying i'm the best but i try giving models a 90% chance to work with top designers in NYC and top models and get there face out there so they don't have to be on mm like the other models that i shot and give there pic's to clients..but i belive again that they don't want that ,they just like to do the no-show and staying right were ther are Being A INTERNET MODEL"" edgy models Oct 05 06 10:04 am Link R Cervelli wrote: AWESOME IDEA!!!!!! ebay style rating is an awesome idea!!! models now have to do there own reaserch to see if the photographer is legitimate or not... there are a lot of pervs out there, or "GWC" as we like to call it... with an ebay style rating or grading system, models could instantly check.... and so could photograhpers check... it's a great idea.. OMP doesn't have it.... so this idea could set MM apart from the rest... yo moderators!!! check this idea out!! Oct 05 06 10:11 am Link Well how about the email I got from a photographer who paid to fly a model in-town to do a TFP with her because he wanted her images for his book. She flew in, did a no-call no show and took a paid shoot instead then flew back home. Tell me THAT model should not be on some blacklist somewhere. Oct 05 06 10:16 am Link i work as a handyman, i show up on time and that is half the reason i get hired, i show up sober too, that's the other reason, funny everyone bitches about photographers and escorts, but a handyman is more likely to be a kidnapper or something i do both, people still let me in their houses.. Oct 05 06 10:20 am Link Right on!!! I'm all for professionalism!!!!!!!!!!!!! jh Oct 05 06 10:20 am Link R Cervelli wrote: Yeah, we could call it "The Whiny Photographers' Thread of Libel". Fun times. Oct 05 06 10:25 am Link Not exactly a new idea -- this idea comes up every few weeks. The main issues with a rating system are first -- who is the judge and jury? Photographer: Model # 7734 did a no-show. She is a bad person. Model: I did NOT do a no show. You just wrote it in the book wrong. Our shoot is in two weeks, dumbass. Photographer: I disagree. It was THIS weekend, bitch. Who sorts it out? What do you do when a bad rating shows up against you, but you didn't do anything wrong? Second. Some models and photogs on here actually are professionals who depend on their reputation to earn an income. You give somebody like this a bad rating and make it public, and chances are good, you'll be hearing from their lawyer next. Ever been sued? You can't believe what it will cost you in time, money, and psychic energy, even if you eventually win or they settle. And Ebay makes what, a few hundred million a year? They have a legal STAFF on retainer, and every day, they answer threats of legal action. Every now and then, they actually take it to court. They can afford it. My guess is that ebay spends more on legal services in one month the the entire Model Mayhem operation costs for a year of operation. Third. You're taking this all too seriously. As I said previously, most other businesses have the same legimate issues with no shows that photographers do. But they don't have a system where they rate their clients, and try to force them into showing up for appointments. Maybe they know something we don't? Regards, Paul lawsonpix wrote: Oct 05 06 10:28 am Link Brian Diaz wrote: I guess some of us just don't get it. What a shame! Oct 05 06 10:29 am Link lotusphoto wrote: Holy crap!! It was YOU that didi it!!! Oct 05 06 10:30 am Link I Agree or at least call and let you know. You must be accountable Oct 05 06 10:35 am Link A "rating system" can be very simple with radio buttons and you can not leave a personilzed message Just check a box. Then it could be translated back to their portfolio. 0 Model showed up on time 0 Model showed up late but had a good excuse 0 Model did a no call no show 0 Model cancelled with phone call within 24 hours 0 Model cancelled with a phone call same day prior to shot Something simliar for photographers so models have equal ability. Oct 05 06 10:36 am Link Oh, one more thing: Every model that I've booked something with from this site has shown up (with bells on). Their attitude has always been exceptional (Hell, they can put up with an arrogant, crazy haired, demanding photographer who drinks and curses like a sailor... that'd be me by the way!) and I've had a blast with all of them. If we are going to post a "no-show" list, then we sure as hell should post a "show list..." Especially one that gives members the opportunity to read about fantastic models that go above and beyond the call of duty. P.S. Perhaps we only need the positive list... Models could strive to belong to the exclusive "show list" club; maybe positivity is needed to help curb the no show rate.... Hmmmm, that's an idea! Oct 05 06 10:38 am Link R Cervelli wrote: it's more than that... Oct 05 06 10:41 am Link bang bang photo wrote: Actually there is a model site with a reference check forum and it contains good and bad references so photographers can make up their own minds. Oct 05 06 10:49 am Link So there you go -- if it's so great why not just use THAT modeling site instead of this one? Let the market decide. If the other site is so great, they'll get all the photogs and models, right? No need to get sarcastic just because you don't like my ideas. The truth is, I'm a "little guy" photographer whose only source of income is photography -- if I get a no-show for a commercial shoot, I can't pay the rent, the car insurance, the child support, you name it. And I HATE missing meals. When I put a TFCD shoot on my calendar, I can't use that date for a paying gig. So a no show sucks for me just at LEAST as much as it does for everybody else - maybe more. I guess the difference is, I believe that turning models into "the enemy" by cultivating an "us" vs. "them" attitude is bad for business. Come on -- read the title of this thread, "Photographers Unite!" Us vs. them. Bad for business. And again, I see the vast majority of businesses not turning to a rating system that pits them against their clients. From my perspective, that is a consideration that deserves weight when talking about what to do in OUR business. I treat my clients, large or small, with respect. I expect the same respect from them. I want my models to be my friends -- not my enemies. To me -- this is the answer. Obviously, we disagree. I'm outa here for now. Peace! gdsandy wrote: Oct 05 06 11:00 am Link There is always the possibility that a photographer will spread bad information about a model out of malice or vice versa. This is why there is no such system already in place on Model Mayhem. Oct 05 06 12:36 pm Link Ched wrote: Impossible! Photographers are doing this out of the love of the art. In essense, we are pure. Models are just short of gold-diggers. They just want money. We photographers must band together and fight back! Oct 05 06 01:14 pm Link Case Closed.. This is why I do not offer TFP and all my assignments are paid for in advance. I do have an issue with photographers calling other photographers "whiners" when it comes to this issue however. I am sorry but deep down when a model stands you up, you are pissed off. You may not want to admit it, but you are. It is total disrespect to the photographer and his time. This TFP crap only started really surfacing with the age of digital photography. This is where a lot of today's T&A photography is headed to. The "GWC's" as we call them, and the age of internet models, who will never really become professional models, are the culprits of all this. I have been a photographer all my life and have made good money at it because I consider myself professional. I only shoot professional models or a aspiring models who have a great book and knows that professional shoots cost money. Going back 10 years ago, there was no such things as TFP or TFCD. Girls or guys who were serious about getting into the modeling industry PAID for their shoots. And what a shock when the few models nowadays who do get signed have to do photoshoots with the photographers the agency uses. OH MY GOD, I HAVE TO PAY FOR THE SHOOT? comes out of the models mouth. Model's think it is free because there is no film to buy and no processing money spent.. "Hey it's all free". It all comes down the today's photographers giving their services away for free. Photographers created this problem to begin with. I too am tired of reading threads of photographers complaining of no shows. I am equally concerned over models complaining about photographer no shows. In either case, it is unprofessional As the poster put it, it is just respect. It's takes less time to pick up the phone to cancel then the effort it took to set up the shoot in the first place. Rating systems.. Both pros and cons and I understand both sides of this argument. Not saying I am for them or against them. With the age of internet modeling, hundreds of thousands of wanna be models think they have what it takes but really do not understand what it takes. Why rate a model as poor no show when she doesn't know the rules of the game. He/She takes the appointment like the photographer who doesn't show up for his doctors appointment or haircut. "Oh Well" My rules are simple. If you like my work and you want to shoot with me, I get a 50% deposit up front. I apply it to the shoot. Professional models understand this and never complain about it because they know the industry. I have no, no-shows. I do get the occasional cancellation but in the last 10 years I can count on one hand how many of those happened. When a model puts up the money up-front, he/she thinks twice about losing that deposit with a no show. When a model comes out and asks me to do a TFP with them, I simply reply "WHY? are you going to give me a percentage of YOUR earnings if you make it big or why should I shoot you for free so you benefit and I don't?" "Not a win-win situation here, do you agree?" My book is full of great images as many of your's are Mr./Ms. photographers. Don't sell yourselves short. "You want my images in your book Mr./Ms. model, so you can go promote yourself? it will cost you... It all boils down to PROFESSIONALISM. Oct 05 06 01:17 pm Link bang bang photo wrote: Please don't take this personally, but I really get tired of this self serving answer every time this subject comes up. Oct 05 06 01:30 pm Link ImageOne wrote: Detective Colombo wrote: Oct 05 06 01:37 pm Link I always have every member of the crew, except for my assistant, give me a call 2 hours prior to the shoot to let me know that they are still on schedule. This has eliminated no shows. In the end, "blacklists" are not constructive and I think that changing ones own policy to help ensure that all the crew arrive on schedule is the best step that you can take. Talk to the models beforehand and tell them that if you do not recieve a call at least 2 hours prior to shooting you will not show up at the studio. Put the responsibility on them to give you a call and the serious models will call and show up and you wont have to waste your time heading down to the studio for the ones who arent going to show. Oct 05 06 01:38 pm Link R Cervelli wrote: That will never happen. Oct 05 06 01:39 pm Link |
