I'm really looking forward to shooting with you, but coming from a model's perspective, I'm not going to send you a check or money order and be screwed out of my money, with all do respect. If you are willing to shoot with me without a deposit, that would be fine. But if that is an absolute requirement of you, I'm sorry that we both missed out on this opportunity.

I replied with the fact that I've spend $10,000 on photography in the last few years, I charge $2k-3k for the few weddings I do, and I have plenty of references, so why exactly would I be out on the Intertubes trying to scam poor models out of $30?

I might waive the deposit in certain cases, like for models I've worked with before, those with stellar references, or someone I *really* want to shoot for whom $30 would be a hardship, etc., so I don't think I'm being a hardass about this.

I likely won't know her response, if there is one, for another few weeks (her usual lag time between messages). So I'll ask you all in the meantime--did I save myself from wasting a weekend on Yet Another Flake, or just lose a potential shoot with a beautiful model whose "perspective" is just grossly misinformed?

Richard Tallent wrote:
The first model turned me down today because of my recent addition of a $30 deposit (refundable upon arrival) for TFCD shoots:


I replied with the fact that I've spend $10,000 on photography in the last few years, I charge $2k-3k for the few weddings I do, and I have plenty of references, so why exactly would I be out on the Intertubes trying to scam poor models out of $30?

I might waive the deposit in certain cases, like for models I've worked with before, those with stellar references, or someone I *really* want to shoot for whom $30 would be a hardship, etc., so I don't think I'm being a hardass about this.

I likely won't know her response, if there is one, for another few weeks (her usual lag time between messages). So I'll ask you all in the meantime--did I save myself from wasting a weekend on Yet Another Flake, or just lose a potential shoot with a beautiful model whose "perspective" is just grossly misinformed?

look at it as time saved for sure, i introduced a no airfare or lodging paid upfront and it saved me 500.00 just this morning when  model decided to no show,  i would have in the past ,been out of pocket, deposit good, no deposit bad.

Richard Tallent wrote:
...So I'll ask you all in the meantime--did I save myself from wasting a weekend on Yet Another Flake, or just lose a potential shoot with a beautiful model whose "perspective" is just grossly misinformed?

Who knows.  It's certainly not too much to ask. It's nice that there is no shortage of models.

What's odd about her reply is she's so worried she might "be screwed out of my money" but not worried about you getting screwed.  It reflects a great amount of distrust in your direction.  She's willing to model for you but worried you're going to screw her out of her money?   If she's really worried about this she shouldn't be shooting with you. Thus, she's showing bad judgment from the get go.

Richard Tallent wrote:
So I'll ask you all in the meantime--did I save myself from wasting a weekend on Yet Another Flake, or just lose a potential shoot with a beautiful model whose "perspective" is just grossly misinformed?

How about neither? The way you phrase the question is pretty arrogant, don't you think? If she doesn't want to send you money before meeting you, she's either a flake or grossly misinformed? How about she's a reasonable person (as evidenced by her email) who feels that if YOU don't trust her enough to waive your petty rule, she doesn't care to work with you.
The amount you spend on your trade is your business, not hers, as is the amount of no-shows you've had. If you call somebody a flake for not wanting to go to the trouble of going out, buying a money order and mailing it to you, you'll meet a lot of "flakes".
The policy is idiotic and insulting. We're not talking about you springing for a plane ticket or lodging here, just waiting at your home. I'm sorry if you don't feel you should have to take the risk of a model bailing but it goes with the territory. Perhaps you'll change your mind after you lose a few *good models* who balk at that fee Or maybe you'll continue to believe that it's perfectly reasonable and something must be wrong with *them*...

Richard Tallent wrote:
The first model turned me down today because of my recent addition of a $30 deposit (refundable upon arrival) for TFCD shoots:


I replied with the fact that I've spend $10,000 on photography in the last few years, I charge $2k-3k for the few weddings I do, and I have plenty of references, so why exactly would I be out on the Intertubes trying to scam poor models out of $30?

I might waive the deposit in certain cases, like for models I've worked with before, those with stellar references, or someone I *really* want to shoot for whom $30 would be a hardship, etc., so I don't think I'm being a hardass about this.

I likely won't know her response, if there is one, for another few weeks (her usual lag time between messages). So I'll ask you all in the meantime--did I save myself from wasting a weekend on Yet Another Flake, or just lose a potential shoot with a beautiful model whose "perspective" is just grossly misinformed?

I'd say who cares. One out of a hundred. I do the same -- require a deposit and don't really run into many problems. There was a model coming up to the Detroit area from Cleveland to shoot with me, who I charged a $100 deposit, and there was no problem. Keep charging your deposit... If they are smart, and take what they and you do in a professional manner they will see the reasoning for the deposit without question.

Richard Tallent wrote:
I likely won't know her response, if there is one, for another few weeks (her usual lag time between messages).

Seems to me this answers the question, never mind the deposit issue.

Miles Chandler wrote:
How about neither? The way you phrase the question is pretty arrogant, don't you think? If she doesn't want to send you money before meeting you, she's either a flake or grossly misinformed? How about she's a reasonable person (as evidenced by her email) who feels that if YOU don't trust her enough to waive your petty rule, she doesn't care to work with you.
The amount you spend on your trade is your business, not hers, as is the amount of no-shows you've had. If you call somebody a flake for not wanting to go to the trouble of going out, buying a money order and mailing it to you, you'll meet a lot of "flakes".
The policy is idiotic and insulting. We're not talking about you springing for a plane ticket or lodging here, just waiting at your home. I'm sorry if you don't feel you should have to take the risk of a model bailing but it goes with the territory. Perhaps you'll change your mind after you lose a few *good models* who balk at that fee Or maybe you'll continue to believe that it's perfectly reasonable and something must be wrong with *them*...

Wow, Miles, now your reply seems a bit arrogant.  A photographer's policy of a deposit is petty, idiotic, and insulting?  If you think a photographer's only investment in a shoot is "sitting at home and waiting", then you're either grossly misinformed or you take your craft pretty flippantly.  A photographer can spend weeks synchronizing schedules with MUAs, models, studios, and perhaps assistants.  In some cases, they shell out money for travel, lodging, studio rental, MUA deposits, etc.  Then the model doesn't show.  You think everyone will just say "Sorry she didn't show.  Guess I won't charge you for my time."?  What about the lost opportunity for a shoot?  The photographer now has a wasted day, when all the model had to do is call within a reasonable timeframe prior to the shoot and say she can't make it.

No-show models and last-minute cancelations are the scourge of this industry.  Don't make excuses for them.  If you don't want to charge a deposit, then the risk is yours to take.  But don't begrudge another photographer for wanting to protect himself and his invested time and money.

Miles Chandler wrote:
How about neither? The way you phrase the question is pretty arrogant, don't you think? If she doesn't want to send you money before meeting you, she's either a flake or grossly misinformed? How about she's a reasonable person (as evidenced by her email) who feels that if YOU don't trust her enough to waive your petty rule, she doesn't care to work with you.
The amount you spend on your trade is your business, not hers, as is the amount of no-shows you've had. If you call somebody a flake for not wanting to go to the trouble of going out, buying a money order and mailing it to you, you'll meet a lot of "flakes".
The policy is idiotic and insulting. We're not talking about you springing for a plane ticket or lodging here, just waiting at your home. I'm sorry if you don't feel you should have to take the risk of a model bailing but it goes with the territory. Perhaps you'll change your mind after you lose a few *good models* who balk at that fee Or maybe you'll continue to believe that it's perfectly reasonable and something must be wrong with *them*...

Maybe the overall work ethic is better in your area? I think you are a tad harsh....Who are you to tell him how to run his business and harshly judge his policies? He has his reasons for charging that deposit, anyone who really wants to shoot with him would have paid it no questions asked. That's his policy, the model can either go with it or find someone else....just the fact that she thought she would get screwed really shows what she really thinks of him....if that was the reputation she thought he had, why the hell did she want to shoot with him at all? The fact that she takes weeks to respond is a good reason to question her reliability.....bottom line, he is trying to cover his ass to fill his appointment space.....which cannot be given back once it's lost. I do the same thing with new faces that I know nothing about who want to shoot with me, if no one in my network can vouch for them....or even for my paying clients......any offsite event work I do, model portfolio development, or any other time consuming shoot, and ANY shoot when a stylist is booked, I get a $100.00 deposit, in which they are provided a receipt by mail, or instantly if they use paypal. It's business. I rarely have no shows, but it has happened. The straw that broke the camel's back was a model portfolio shoot I booked, would have been $400.00....made an exception about the deposit because she was active military and I wanted to show my appreciation and not ask that of her.....MISTAKE! My stylist was there and she gave me some BS story a half hour after the appointment time, when she finally returned my call making  sure she was on her way....and we spoke just 14 hours prior and things were good! So there went my whole fucking day, and I filled my makeup artist;s tank and bought her lunch....if we could have split that $100.00 that would have taken some of injury away from the insult. Paid or TFP, it's still appointment time lost. People like that don't give a flying fuck. So YOU have to.

Yep, from what you described about her communication, you avoided a potential headache. You were supposed to take her at face value, but she wouldnt do the same for you......that's your policy, end of story. Next.

Rich Davis wrote:
Is it worth a $30 deposit when you have to tell potential models you get flaked on?  Does that give them confidence?  Will they think a lot of models leave before shooting with you?

It wouldn't be worth $30 to me.

I don;t understand.....as long as you keep personal feelings and anger out of it, and are just matter of fact and professional about it, how does that insinuate that it is because of past track record of flake-o-rama? It's to cover your interest now because you have a full schedule and must ensure that all time booked is accounted for. $30.00 can't cover lost appointment time, but it sure beats a no show and $0.00. They are far less likely to not show when they have a little something invested. If presented correctly, I think it only shows business savvy, not unprofessionalism.

Taylor Photography wrote:
Wow, Miles, now your reply seems a bit arrogant.  A photographer's policy of a deposit is petty, idiotic, and insulting?  If you think a photographer's only investment in a shoot is "sitting at home and waiting", then you're either grossly misinformed or you take your craft pretty flippantly.  A photographer can spend weeks synchronizing schedules with MUAs, models, studios, and perhaps assistants.  In some cases, they shell out money for travel, lodging, studio rental, MUA deposits, etc.  Then the model doesn't show.  You think everyone will just say "Sorry she didn't show.  Guess I won't charge you for my time."?  What about the lost opportunity for a shoot?  The photographer now has a wasted day, when all the model had to do is call within a reasonable timeframe prior to the shoot and say she can't make it.

No-show models and last-minute cancelations are the scourge of this industry.  Don't make excuses for them.  If you don't want to charge a deposit, then the risk is yours to take.  But don't begrudge another photographer for wanting to protect himself and his invested time and money.

What I begrudge here is a photographer starting a thread with the obvious intent of getting reassurances that a model is being unreasonable when in my opinion, she clearly isn't. If his "two options" had included something besides "flake" and "grossly misinformed" I wouldn't have spoken so harshly. As it is, he's being arrogant and insulting to a model who never did him any harm.
The expenses you speak of are the kind that few photographers shell out for a first time TFCD shoot, and I see no sign in his portfolio that he does so- nor did he mention any of that in his opening message. And if he did put that kind of money and prep time into a TFCD shoot, would a measly $30 really make any difference to him?
I didn't make any excuses for no-shows or cancellations, just said that they are a risk of the business, especially when a model isn't being paid. And since most of this thread will consist of people patting him on the back, I felt like pointing out that his new policy might discourage good models too, not just "flakes".

Do you charge your models a deposit? If not, I wonder if one of your great models (Nikki, for instance) might have decided not to work with you if you had demanded one? Just a thought.

Miles Chandler wrote:
Do you charge your models a deposit? If not, I wonder if one of your great models (Nikki, for instance) might have decided not to work with you if you had demanded one? Just a thought.

Do I charge a deposit?  Depends on the shoot.  If the model initiates contact with me and it involves a lot of planning (MUA, location, schedules, etc), then yes, I charge a deposit that's fully refundable the day of the shoot.  Once I've worked with the model and feel comfortable with him/her, then I don't charge from that day on.

Not sure whether Nikki would have wanted to work with me if I'd asked for a deposit.  I initiated contact with her, and I feel it wouldn't have been right to ask for a deposit.  However, at that point, I had never been flaked on before.  All previous shoots showed up on time (or early).  At present, I've had five cancelations and one no-show over the past nine shoots.  The no-show shoot was reconfirmed 17 hours before the shoot, and she STILL flaked by planning a shoot for the same time with her manager.  No calls, no apologies, and no follow-up explanations by her or her mother (model was 16).  I wasn't surprised at the behavior of the 16 year old, but the mother?? 

So, you can BET I will charge a deposit if there is considerable investment of time or money on my end.  No, it doesn't cover lost money, but it's not meant to.  It's meant as an incentive for the model to show up.

If I initiated contact with a model, and she'd been burned in the past by no-show photographers, I wouldn't be offended if she asked for a deposit (within reason...no $100 or $200 deposits), especially if I wanted to work with her badly enough.

Jay Farrell wrote:

I don;t understand.....as long as you keep personal feelings and anger out of it, and are just matter of fact and professional about it, how does that insinuate that it is because of past track record of flake-o-rama? It's to cover your interest now because you have a full schedule and must ensure that all time booked is accounted for. $30.00 can't cover lost appointment time, but it sure beats a no show and $0.00. They are far less likely to not show when they have a little something invested. If presented correctly, I think it only shows business savvy, not unprofessionalism.

And if presented poorly?

Reverend D-Ray wrote:
Just one question though. Do you have potential wedding clients give you a deposit?

Most brides do for the holding of their date. It is $150 to hold the date.

6 months before the wedding 1/3 of the total fee is due.
3 months before the next 1/3 of the fee.
1 week before the wedding the entire fee is due.
No money, no photographer.

The $150 is not refundable, if the wedding is cancelled for any reason I must be given 6 weeks notice or I will not refund any money given. Every wedding photographer does a different schedule of payments, most do not offer refunds at all.

Star

Reverend D-Ray wrote:
Just one question though. Do you have potential wedding clients give you a deposit?

Most brides do for the holding of their date. It is $150 to hold the date.

6 months before the wedding 1/3 of the total fee is due.
3 months before the next 1/3 of the fee.
1 week before the wedding the entire fee is due.
No money, no photographer.

The $150 is not refundable, if the wedding is cancelled for any reason I must be given 6 weeks notice or I will not refund any other money given. Every wedding photographer does a different schedule of payments, most do not offer refunds at all.

Star

Richard Tallent wrote:
The first model turned me down today because of my recent addition of a $30 deposit (refundable upon arrival) for TFCD shoots:


I replied with the fact that I've spend $10,000 on photography in the last few years, I charge $2k-3k for the few weddings I do, and I have plenty of references, so why exactly would I be out on the Intertubes trying to scam poor models out of $30?

I might waive the deposit in certain cases, like for models I've worked with before, those with stellar references, or someone I *really* want to shoot for whom $30 would be a hardship, etc., so I don't think I'm being a hardass about this.

I likely won't know her response, if there is one, for another few weeks (her usual lag time between messages). So I'll ask you all in the meantime--did I save myself from wasting a weekend on Yet Another Flake, or just lose a potential shoot with a beautiful model whose "perspective" is just grossly misinformed?

$30.00 is not enough, I would require $100.00 and yes you saved yourself from a flake.    Models often schedule tests because they sound good at the time...they know very well that they can back out later if they change their minds.    Models have bad hair days, I feel fat days, I'm hung over days and they really dont lose anything if they just back out, so they do.   

I used to do paid tests and I never put them in my book until the money was in my bank....ALL OF IT and if the model did a no show or cancelled without a 24 hour notice she lost the money.... all of it.  Only one time did someone cancel on me and I kept her money so I was happy.   

I get so sick of seeing photographers complain about flakes when they dont have the confidence to ask for a deposit....I think they know that this will eliminate a good deal of their model possabilites and they just dont consider that its just the flakes that wont pay a deposit.   

We need to treat this as a business....A lot of people aren't doing that and so they deserve to be stood up... if you don't value your time why should anyone else?
and I know "deserve to be stood up" sounds harsh but if this happens to you more than just one time yes, you deserve it the 2nd time, just for being stupid

oh, and if the photographer initiates the contact it would be hard to ask for a deposit, I guess you take your chances if you are the asking party.

Rich Davis wrote:

And if presented poorly?

Like anything.....even good things presented poorly are bad....let's give him the benefit of the doubt as far as his presentation, since none of us were there.....

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Man!  I just hate these photographer-model conflicts that are managed so poorly.  Some thoughts:

Deposits:  So, for a TFP/TFCD sitting, the photographer asks for a deposit to insure that the model doesn't flake & that she shows up on time.  So, I guess that means that when she shows up, she gets her deposit back.  Okay.  Since it is a TFP/TFCD agreement, is it then okay for the model to walk away from the sitting with a deposit from the photographer -- that deposit will be returned to the photographer when he delivers the agreed-upon number of images in the agreed-upon format?  Or more to the point:  for you photographers who ask for an anti-flake insurance policy:  how would you feel about giving the model a deposit that she'll hold until you deliver the images you promise her?

I spent $10,000 on photography equipment...  So what?  That's stuff you own and that you will continue to own after your sitting with the model.  If you are a professional photographer, you get to deduct the costs & can depreciate the equipment.  Meanwhile, the model, who is probably very young & hasn't accumulated much wealth yet, is not earning anything from her time with you (other than some images that may or may not be any good and that may or may not be delivered).  She has to find the time (away from a paying job or other obligations) to visit you.  She has wardrobe, make-up, transportation costs.  Further, you get to retain the copyright to the images you make with the model -- she can't make a dime off of those images, while you can.  So, I say, "so what?"  You both have expenses; yours might be higher than hers, but it is likely that you have more earning power than she does. 

Flakes Happen:  I believe that flakes happen, and that some individuals are just likely to flake.  But I wonder whether the photographer has done all he can to insure that the model is motivated to get there.  Some ideas:
   >>>  Is the model enthused & excited about the sitting?
   >>>  Has the photographer checked the model's references?
   >>>  Is the model happy about the compensation?
   >>>  Has the agreement been clearly articulated & documented?
In short, what (besides demanding a deposit) are you doing to improve your chances that the model will show up?

My bottom line:  do what you want, but in my book, any photographer who asks for a deposit is initiating a non-productive working relationship.  The deposit is an early impression, and it says "I don't trust you, and I am more important than you."  Good luck with that.

So you never charge deposits, even for clientele? I think you raise some good points but please clarify that....or are you only speaking of barter exchange shoots?

Curt Burgess wrote:
Who knows.  It's certainly not too much to ask. It's nice that there is no shortage of models.

What's odd about her reply is she's so worried she might "be screwed out of my money" but not worried about you getting screwed.  It reflects a great amount of distrust in your direction.  She's willing to model for you but worried you're going to screw her out of her money?   If she's really worried about this she shouldn't be shooting with you. Thus, she's showing bad judgment from the get go.

I agree with the model.  There are as many sleazy photogaphers on MM as there are flaky models.  If I were the model, I would worry (1) that the photographer would flake and not do the shoot; (2) that the photographer, if he did actually do the shoot, would be a total sleaze and refuse to return my money when finished.  In NYC, asking a model for a deposit on a TFP shoot (which by definition means no money passes hands) would be considered beyond bizarre and the photographer who did it would instantly become a total laughing stock.

Richard Tallent wrote:
The first model turned me down today because of my recent addition of a $30 deposit (refundable upon arrival) for TFCD shoots:


I replied with the fact that I've spend $10,000 on photography in the last few years, I charge $2k-3k for the few weddings I do, and I have plenty of references, so why exactly would I be out on the Intertubes trying to scam poor models out of $30?

I might waive the deposit in certain cases, like for models I've worked with before, those with stellar references, or someone I *really* want to shoot for whom $30 would be a hardship, etc., so I don't think I'm being a hardass about this.

I likely won't know her response, if there is one, for another few weeks (her usual lag time between messages). So I'll ask you all in the meantime--did I save myself from wasting a weekend on Yet Another Flake, or just lose a potential shoot with a beautiful model whose "perspective" is just grossly misinformed?

I'm just curious, how many models have "flaked" on you?  I've shot with about 25 or 30 photographers, and none of them required a deposit.  I hear alot about it being a problem in the big cities, but didn't know it was that big of one in our area of the country.  I always do my research though before I ever decide to work with someone, and I communicate with them by e-mail or phone, making sure that I have all the details about the shoot because I have to travel such great distances to work with anyone.  I guess I would have to say that I feel extremely fortunate to have had so many talented photographers want to work with me.  Have you ever tried checking references on the models that contact you? I urge people to check my references if I haven't worked with them before.  If they are new to the business and don't have many references and it has been a big problem for you, I would definitely ask for a deposit.  A guys gotta do, what a guys gotta do, can't hold that against you...you've got expenses to pay. I might pay a deposit if there was a photographer traveling to my area that I was desperate to work with and that was the only way I could shoot with him/her.  Otherwise, I probably wouldn't since I have so many references now.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Man!  I just hate these photographer-model conflicts that are managed so poorly.  Some thoughts:

Deposits:  So, for a TFP/TFCD sitting, the photographer asks for a deposit to insure that the model doesn't flake & that she shows up on time.  So, I guess that means that when she shows up, she gets her deposit back.  Okay.  Since it is a TFP/TFCD agreement, is it then okay for the model to walk away from the sitting with a deposit from the photographer -- that deposit will be returned to the photographer when he delivers the agreed-upon number of images in the agreed-upon format?  Or more to the point:  for you photographers who ask for an anti-flake insurance policy:  how would you feel about giving the model a deposit that she'll hold until you deliver the images you promise her?

I spent $10,000 on photography equipment...  So what?  That's stuff you own and that you will continue to own after your sitting with the model.  If you are a professional photographer, you get to deduct the costs & can depreciate the equipment.  Meanwhile, the model, who is probably very young & hasn't accumulated much wealth yet, is not earning anything from her time with you (other than some images that may or may not be any good and that may or may not be delivered).  She has to find the time (away from a paying job or other obligations) to visit you.  She has wardrobe, make-up, transportation costs.  Further, you get to retain the copyright to the images you make with the model -- she can't make a dime off of those images, while you can.  So, I say, "so what?"  You both have expenses; yours might be higher than hers, but it is likely that you have more earning power than she does. 

Flakes Happen:  I believe that flakes happen, and that some individuals are just likely to flake.  But I wonder whether the photographer has done all he can to insure that the model is motivated to get there.  Some ideas:
   >>>  Is the model enthused & excited about the sitting?
   >>>  Has the photographer checked the model's references?
   >>>  Is the model happy about the compensation?
   >>>  Has the agreement been clearly articulated & documented?
In short, what (besides demanding a deposit) are you doing to improve your chances that the model will show up?

My bottom line:  do what you want, but in my book, any photographer who asks for a deposit is initiating a non-productive working relationship.  The deposit is an early impression, and it says "I don't trust you, and I am more important than you."  Good luck with that.

Jay Farrell wrote:
So you never charge deposits, even for clientele? I think you raise some good points but please clarify that....or are you only speaking of barter exchange shoots?

I rarely (almost never) do TFP/TFCD -- I think it is a raw deal for the model and is counterproductive to my objectives for the sitting.  I do mostly nude photography, and I'm happy to pay the model.  That way, I feel that I am in charge and that we are working on concepts that I want to work on.  Often, models enjoy the results & have often used the images we make together for their portfolio.  But since a) I'm trying to create new art (as opposed to boilerplate portraits), and b) I retain the copyright, I'd rather pay the model.  I typically earn enough money from the images to compensate me for her modeling fees. 

It is my objective from every sitting that the model leaves feeling appreciated & respected.  By paying her, she is better incented to show up, she feels appreciated, and she is less likely to flake.  If I were to ask her to pose for free and to give me a deposit to ensure that she shows up, she certainly won't feel respected or trusted (see the model's comments in the original post).

FWIW:  I have never experienced a flake.

I just don't have the time to do TFP or to be "hired" by models -- there's just so many hours in the day, and my creativity consumes enough already.

Reverend D-Ray wrote:
Just one question though. Do you have potential wedding clients give you a deposit?

Yes... I only have one wedding on the calendar right now (late December), but I required half up front to book the date. I've known the groom for ten years through friends, church, etc., but that's even *more* reason for me to ensure that things go by the book.

Miles Chandler wrote:
How about she's a reasonable person (as evidenced by her email) who feels that if YOU don't trust her enough to waive your petty rule, she doesn't care to work with you.

Would it still be a "petty rule" if I were requiring deposits to book a *paid* shoot for portraits, etc.?

If you call somebody a flake for not wanting to go to the trouble of going out, buying a money order and mailing it to you, you'll meet a lot of "flakes".

I take checks and PayPal as well. If a model can't be bothered to lick a stamp or click a button to show some commitment to a shoot, should I really expect her to do other model preparation--selecting and packing the right wardrobe, getting nails done, setting her alarm, getting her escort on-board, etc.?

We're not talking about you springing for a plane ticket or lodging here, just waiting at your home.

I shoot TFCD one day a week, if that. It's not just "waiting at home." Sometimes there is a MUA, most of the time there is not. I don't pay for film, but there's a huge opportunity cost. I could have given that time to another model on my waiting list, or planned something else to do with my day off, or planned a paid shoot for that day rather than trying to leave it open for TFCD projects.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I will add explaing your policy while nice is something I wouldn't
do.  It just leads to silly debates on why or if its ok.

Good point... the ones who don't see a problem don't want to hear the whining, and the ones who balk at such a small thing probably won't give a crap about the photographer's reasons.

Hadyn Lassiter wrote:
I do see alot of arrogance and out right anger at models here, this alone would prevent some from wanting to work with those who show this side of their self.

Very true. I don't stereotype models as all flakes, but at the same time I am trying to be more discriminate in who I invite to collaborate with me on trade shoots. No anger here, just resolution to find ways to screen out the flakes while limiting the "false positives."

Rich Davis wrote:
Is it worth a $30 deposit when you have to tell potential models you get flaked on?

A good point, I am no master artist, but I've seen photographers a *lot* better than me complaining here of nearly the same flake rates, so I think it's a relatively universal problem that probably has more to do with the local market than my skill or lack thereof.

Miles Chandler wrote:
If his "two options" had included something besides "flake" and "grossly misinformed" I wouldn't have spoken so harshly.

Flake: doesn't want to pay a deposit because she doesn't know if she'll feel like showing up.

Misinformed: thinks a photographer is trying to screw her out of $30.

The expenses you speak of are the kind that few photographers shell out for a first time TFCD shoot, and I see no sign in his portfolio that he does so

You are right, my per-shoot expenses are minimal. I shoot digital, I don't rent my studio space, I don't buy wardrobe, and I rarely have a MUA.

But, there again, I have *very* little time to do TFCD work, so losing an appointment is a big deal for me.

A $30 deposit isn't a substitute for my time, it's a guesture of commitment I ask from aspiring models who have no established track record that I can confirm from my past shoots with them or from other photographers.

If my (rare) paid portrait sittings flaked on me as often as Internet models, you bet your ass I would require a deposit for those shoots too, I see no reason to treat trade shoots differently.

The "trade" in TFCD happens during the shoot, but if the "trade" doesn't happen, I still lose half the time (i.e., not counting retouching) that I would have invested in the shoot, but the model loses nothing.

Richard Tallent wrote:
The first model turned me down today because of my recent addition of a $30 deposit (refundable upon arrival) for TFCD shoots:

snipped the rest of the OP.

Question...did you and the above mentioned model already have a shoot scheduled before you decided to add the $30 deposit rule or was the model aware of the deposit before a shoot was scheduled? 

Just curious.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I will add explaing your policy while nice is something I wouldn't
do.  It just leads to silly debates on why or if its ok.

Richard Tallent wrote:
Good point... the ones who don't see a problem don't want to hear the whining, and the ones who balk at such a small thing probably won't give a crap about the photographer's reasons.

So, I have a question.

I understand that this deposit thing works like this:  you & the model agree to do a TFP/TFCD shoot, and she gives you a small deposit to guarantee that she'll show up.  Once she shows up, she gets her deposit back.

Now turn it around -- at this sitting, suppose the model then asks you for a $100 deposit which she'll take with her from the sitting -- she'll return the deposit when you deliver the agreed upon number of images, in the agreed upon format, in the agreed upon amount of time. 

How would that make you feel?

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I just hate these photographer-model conflicts that are managed so poorly.

Remember, the way she phrased it, it wasn't that she couldn't afford $30 or that she had excellent references that I could check in leiu of a deposit, it was simply a trust issue that I'm running some sort of model scam. I'm not sure that there's much more a photographer can do to show that he is legit.

So, I guess that means that when she shows up, she gets her deposit back.

Absolutely. There's no guarantee that the model will stay the entire time, bring the right wardrobe, or have any skill whatsoever in front of the camera, but the deposit isn't meant to mitigate that risk, and I wouldn't expect a model to agree to terms where her performance at the shoot determined whether her deposit was returned.

Frankly, most of the models I work with drive in from Houston, about 90 miles away. If a model showed up just to collect the deposit, that would just be knee-slapping funny for me and I'd return it just so I could tell the story here.

How would you feel about giving the model a deposit that she'll hold until you deliver the images you promise her?

That's actually a damn good idea given some of the stories I've heard from models. Not sure it's apples to apples, though. I charge a deposit because very few models (around here) have references.

I spent $10,000 on photography equipment...  So what?

It's not an issue of ego, it's one of perspective. It should be common sense that a photographer who invests serious capital in my hobby/business isn't out trying to screw models out of $30.

And, yes, this is the Internet and people pretend, but I should also mention that my home address, phone numbers, IM accounts, etc. are all listed plainly on my web site. I'm not a career photographer, but it's quite easy to verify that I'm not a scam.

I believe that flakes happen, and that some individuals are just likely to flake.

Agreed. Which is why I'd rather screen them out and let them flake on someone else.

Is the model enthused & excited about the sitting?

Ever had enthusiatic flakes? I have. Some have even met up over coffee to plan a shoot, confirmed afterward on the phone, then disappeared without a word.

Has the photographer checked the model's references?

Absolutely. But if there are no references (as was the case here), a deposit is a legitimate alternative. If I limited myself to only highly-experienced models, I would have missed out on almost all of my best shoots.

Is the model happy about the compensation?

If you aren't happy with TFCD, don't agree to TFCD. If you special-order something at a store and they customize and bring it in for you, should you be able to just cancel the order when it comes in and not expect to pay at least a restocking fee? There's a time to discuss compensation, and it's *before* booking a shoot.

Has the agreement been clearly articulated & documented?

I have an entire page on my site devoted to how I do TFCD, which I refer models to. I discuss much of the same information by email and telephone while setting up the shoot. My TFCD release is available upon request, it is clear and mitigates many model worries about stock art use (as if I had time for that), etc.

any photographer who asks for a deposit is initiating a non-productive working relationship.  The deposit is an early impression, and it says "I don't trust you, and I am more important than you."

Trust, but verify. I can't just trust anonymous pretty-face profiles on these sites with fake names and no references. I, however, do business under my own name, I provide references, and my contact information is published as clearly as any business.

Frank McAdam wrote:
I would worry (1) that the photographer would flake and not do the shoot;

I know it happens, but I've *never* had a model express a worry that I would show up to a shoot.

(2) that the photographer, if he did actually do the shoot, would be a total sleaze and refuse to return my money when finished.

Which is why said deposit should be returned when they show up, not when they leave.

In NYC, asking a model for a deposit on a TFP shoot (which by definition means no money passes hands) would be considered beyond bizarre and the photographer who did it would instantly become a total laughing stock.

Unfortunately, I'm in Beaumont, Texas. Everyone drives an SUV, drink refills at restaurants are free, models flake as often as the weather, and we don't have an endless supply of models who with can pick through to find the ones with the great references and still keep our calendars full.

Sinsazia wrote:
Question...did you and the above mentioned model already have a shoot scheduled before you decided to add the $30 deposit rule or was the model aware of the deposit before a shoot was scheduled?

A very fair question. We haven't even schedule a shoot, just had a few emails about the possibility of TFCD. It didn't come up in an email until the last go-around, but it's been posted on my web site and profiles for about two months, even though I've been lax about it because I *didn't* want to spring it on anyone I was talking to at the time.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Now turn it around -- at this sitting, suppose the model then asks you for a $100 deposit which she'll take with her from the sitting -- she'll return the deposit when you deliver the agreed upon number of images, in the agreed upon format, in the agreed upon amount of time. How would that make you feel?

I think I already answered this one, but it bears repeating.

1) I have references, she doesn't (in this case). Like I said, I'll waive the deposit if there are enough other strong indicators that I'm dealing with a serious model with a good track record.

2) I do business under my own name and work out of my home, she can track me down if I don't produce. I, on the other hand, rarely know her real name until she signs the release. Anonymity has a powerful way of making people feel that they can get away with not having any integrity.

3) My written release explicitly lays out what I will be providing. If I don't come through, they may have a cause of action. But if they don't show up in the first place, I have no recourse.

Kizzy  wrote:
I'm just curious, how many models have "flaked" on you?

Unfortunately, about 60% in July and 75% in August.

TFCD in September, 3 out of 8 so far last-minute cancelled or flaked. All three had good reasons but have not communicated since to reschedule, so I'm calling BS and will require a deposit in the future from them if we reschedule for November.

It's a huge problem in the Houston market, as are "sluggo" unlicensed agencies/managers and  fly-by-night photographers.

All three of those months, I've had a 0% flake rate for paid portrait and agency-paid portfolio shoots, so I do believe that minimal financial investment can be a strong incentive to only booking shoots when you are determined to keep them.

Have you ever tried checking references on the models that contact you?

Always, whenever I can, and a good set of references or a mature portfolio (having worked with a number of photographers) for me means I'll probably waive the deposit.